Thomas... My Lord and my God

Fred said:
It is clear what Louw and Nida meant. Here ya go:

Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains: the nature or state of being God (12.13, theotēs, page 140, J. P. Louw and Eugene Nida - the boldface and underlined are mine).
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The problem with the way you're seeing it is this. Jesus cannot be in a state of being God because Jesus is not God.
 
Peterlag said:
Did you get a chance to take a look at the 52 reasons why Jesus is not God that I posted yesterday? You can look them over if you would enjoy doing so. They are right here...

1.) The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible.

2.) There is no clear Trinitarian formula in the Bible.

3.)The idea that "the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and together make one God" is not found in Scripture.

4.) God is spirit, and Jesus said he was not a spirit even after his resurrection (Luke 24:39).

5.) Jesus is very plainly called a man many times in Scripture.

6.) God was not born, but is eternal.

7.) Romans 5:19 says a man had to pay for the sins of mankind.

8.) The man Jesus is the mediator between God and men (1 Timothy 2:5).

9.) Jesus called the Father "my God" both before and after his resurrection.

10.) Jesus said my Father is greater than I (John 14:28).

11.) It was God that made Jesus "Lord" (Acts 2:36).

12.) Jesus would have already been the Lord if he was God.

13.) In the future Jesus will be subject to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:28).

14.) Jesus was "sanctified" by God. God does not need to be sanctified.

15.) There is only one who is good and that is God (Luke 18:19).

16.) God is greater than Christ (1 Corinthians 3:23).

17.) It was God who did miracles and wonders through Christ.

18.) Christ was given all authority. He would have already had all authority if he were God (Matthew 28:18).

19.) The phrase "Deity" never appears in the Bible, nor is Christ ever called "Deity."

20.) Ephesians 4:5 says there is one Lord.

21.) 1 Corinthians 8:6 says there is one God.

22.) Jesus called the Father the only God (John 5:44).

23.) Christ made a distinction between speaking against him and the Holy Spirit.

24.) Christ said his doctrine was not his own (John 7:16).

25.) Jesus and God have separate wills (Luke 22:42).

26.) Jesus counted himself and his Father as two (John 8:17).

27.) The Bible always portrays God and Christ as two separate beings.

28.) The Bible makes it clear that Jesus is an "heir" of God (Romans 8:7).

29.) Jesus grew in wisdom, but God is all wise.

30.) Jesus had limited knowledge (mark 13:32).

31.) God made Jesus perfect through suffering (Hebrews 2:10).

32.) Jesus received the holy spirit at his baptism. He would have already had it if he were God.

33.) Jesus was tempted. God cannot be tempted.

34.) Angels ministered and strengthened Jesus. God does not need to be strengthened.

35.) Jesus died. God cannot die.

36.) Jesus says we are his brothers. The Bible never says or even hints that we are brothers of God.

37.) We are told to do greater works than Jesus. Nobody can do greater works than God.

38.) Jesus would have already had "all authority" if he were God and would not need to be given “all authority” Matthew 28:18).

39.) Jesus would have already had “a name above every name”if he were God and would not need to be given “a name above every name” (Philippians 2:9).

40.) Jesus would have already had "Glory" if he were God and would not need to be given "Glory" (John 17:22, 24).

41.) Jesus would have already been "Appointed" if he were God and would not need to be “Appointed” over the Church (Ephesians 1:22)

42.) Jesus was not unoriginated. Christ was the only begotten Son of God (John 3:16).

43.) Jesus was not self-existent. “I live because of the Father” (John 6:57).

44.) Jesus was not immortal. Jesus died and God resurrected him (Acts 13:30).

45.) Jesus was not all wise. Jesus “grew in wisdom” (Luke 2:52).

46.) Jesus was not all-powerful. Christ said “the Son can do nothing by Himself” (John 5:19).

47.) Jesus was not omnipresent. Jesus said after Lazarus died “I am glad I was not there” (John 11:15).

48.) Jesus is called the "Son of God" more than 50 times. Not once is he called "God the Son."

49.) The apostles also taught Jesus was a man (Act 2:22).

50.) The Bible teaches God is the “head” of Christ (Corinthians 11:3).

51.) The supposed “dual nature” of Christ is never stated in the Bible.

52.) There's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.
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This is pretty good. You could add something along these lines in there, too, if you want:

Colossians 1:15 says Jesus is an image of the invisible God, but 1 Timothy 1:17 says the only God is invisible.

You could also show examples of Jesus lacking divine attributes like omniscience (Matthew 24:36) or omnipotence (Matthew 13:58) or how near the end of Revelation Jesus identifies himself as a human again instead of saying that he is God (Revelation 22:16)

There are some examples of Jesus denying being God (Mark 10:18 is the shortest and clearest)

There are probably dozens of more things to add to the list. The Son of Man is the same exact person as the Son of God, for example (Matthew 16:13-16, John 5:25-27, John 10:36-38, Matthew 26:63-64) means the Son of God is fully human.
 
Runningman said:
This is pretty good. You could add something along these lines in there, too, if you want:

Colossians 1:15 says Jesus is an image of the invisible God, but 1 Timothy 1:17 says the only God is invisible.

You could also show examples of Jesus lacking divine attributes like omniscience (Matthew 24:36) or omnipotence (Matthew 13:58) or how near the end of Revelation Jesus identifies himself as a human again instead of saying that he is God (Revelation 22:16)

There are some examples of Jesus denying being God (Mark 10:18 is the shortest and clearest)

There are probably dozens of more things to add to the list. The Son of Man is the same exact person as the Son of God, for example (Matthew 16:13-16, John 5:25-27, John 10:36-38, Matthew 26:63-64) means the Son of God is fully human.
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I cut out a few from the list I was working off to not make it too long. The image one was one of the first I cut because the trinity folks like to twist that one a lot. I got the omnipotence in there. See 47.) Jesus was not omnipresent. Jesus said after Lazarus died “I am glad I was not there” (John 11:15).
 
Peterlag said:
I cut out a few from the list I was working off to not make it too long. The image one was one of the first I cut because the trinity folks like to twist that one a lot. I got the omnipotence in there. See 47.) Jesus was not omnipresent. Jesus said after Lazarus died “I am glad I was not there” (John 11:15).
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Yeah I think it can go one of two ways. The first way is they will stop reading it because it's painful for them to look at. The second way is that the overwhelming Biblical evidence will be meaningful.
 
Runningman said:
Yeah I think it can go one of two ways. The first way is they will stop reading it because it's painful for them to look at. The second way is that the overwhelming Biblical evidence will be meaningful.
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Your first choice. They are reading only the first two lines...

1.) The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible.
2.) There is no clear Trinitarian formula in the Bible.

And then they are saying Untrinitarian is not in the Bible either. Or if you're wrong on the first two then why should we read more.
 
Peterlag said:
Your first choice. They are reading only the first two lines...

1.) The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible.
2.) There is no clear Trinitarian formula in the Bible.

And then they are saying Untrinitarian is not in the Bible either. Or if you're wrong on the first two then why should we read more.
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Haha. The hyper-literalism of the unitarian appears too blatantly in this post. I think we have to reject Peterlag's claim to be an expert on the Trinitarian thought.
 
Peterlag said:
Your first choice. They are reading only the first two lines...

1.) The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible.
2.) There is no clear Trinitarian formula in the Bible.

And then they are saying Untrinitarian is not in the Bible either. Or if you're wrong on the first two then why should we read more.
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We've never asked them to produce the word "Trinity" in the Bible. I don't know where they keep getting that. Possibly just a diversion because everyone on this forum already knows it doesn't exist. We've asked them to produce any functional examples of Trinitarianism in Scripture. They can't produce any, hence the incessant arguing and gaslighting on their part.
 
Runningman said:
We've never asked them to produce the word "Trinity" in the Bible. I don't know where they keep getting that. Possibly just a diversion because everyone on this forum already knows it doesn't exist. We've asked them to produce any functional examples of Trinitarianism in Scripture. They can't produce any, hence the incessant arguing and gaslighting on their part.
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What I have asked for a lot is my last one. Give me a verse that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.
 
Peterlag said:
What I have asked for a lot is my last one. Give me a verse that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.
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There are several High Christologist and High Trinitarian theologians here that will insist that belief in Jesus as God is a pre-requisite for salvation even though that isn't what the Bible says. I find that concerning because I thought we all were in agreement that the Bible is supposed to be the main authority for Christianity. I kind of think that not everyone agrees with that. Would be nice to know what people think one we or another.
 
Runningman said:
There are several High Christologist and High Trinitarian theologians here that will insist that belief in Jesus as God is a pre-requisite for salvation even though that isn't what the Bible says. I find that concerning because I thought we all were in agreement that the Bible is supposed to be the main authority for Christianity. I kind of think that not everyone agrees with that. Would be nice to know what people think one we or another.
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Would you happen to know any names for the Theologians?
 
Runningman said:
There are several High Christologist and High Trinitarian theologians here that will insist that belief in Jesus as God is a pre-requisite for salvation even though that isn't what the Bible says.
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Finally, one cannot deny the Lord Jesus is YHWH (Romans 10:13) and be a Christian since a major component of the gospel that Paul preached included this important truth (Romans 10:8).

F

Post in thread 'Prayer'

Romans 10:13 (Jesus is the Lord/YHWH)
Romans 10:13 (cf. Acts 2:21) is taken from Joel 2:32 (3:5 in the Septuagint). Paul applies YHWH from this Old Testament text in reference to Jesus being the "Lord" in Romans 10:13. This demonstrates Jesus is YHWH.
Romans 10:8-14
(8) But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
(9) that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
(10) for with the...
  • Like
 
Fred said:
Finally, one cannot deny the Lord Jesus is YHWH (Romans 10:13) and be a Christian since a major component of the gospel that Paul preached included this important truth (Romans 10:8).

F

Post in thread 'Prayer'

Romans 10:13 (Jesus is the Lord/YHWH)
Romans 10:13 (cf. Acts 2:21) is taken from Joel 2:32 (3:5 in the Septuagint). Paul applies YHWH from this Old Testament text in reference to Jesus being the "Lord" in Romans 10:13. This demonstrates Jesus is YHWH.
Romans 10:8-14
(8) But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
(9) that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
(10) for with the...
  • Like
Click to expand...
This passage is a prooftext for Jesus not being YHWH, but rather the cornerstone that YHWH laid. YHWH and Jesus are entirely seperate individuals.
 

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