If they were forced to gather it as being the only source for sustenance to be found then no, this does not prove our free will while we are enslaved to sin but it does hint that the life GOD offers to us can only be found by a true free will decision to seek HIM...
The work of God is for YOU TO BELIEVE
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Johann
Well-known member
Sure--
So faith originates from "hearing" correct @Biblelesson? Explain to me your definition of emunah/faith and how you understand it-is it a dorean/gift?
Luther wrote on the Bondage of the will--something like it--do you concur?
Are we born "dead" incapacitated-unable to hear or respond to the good news?
Are unbelievers as "dead as this"
Eph 2:1 And you [He made alive when you] were [spiritually] dead and separated from Him because of your transgressions and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked. You were following the ways of this world [influenced by this present age], in accordance with the prince of the power of the air (Satan), the spirit who is now at work in the disobedient [the unbelieving, who fight against the purposes of God].
---unable to make any choices?
Johann
Johann
Well-known member
Allow me to rephrase this---Do unbelievers have a choice-or are they so dead they cannot MAKE any choice?
Johann.
civic
Well-known member
They have a choice
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Jesus uses manna as an analogy, thusly, it is more important what Jesus said about manna. "Manna" is food. Jesus said He was the "bread of life". Your father's ate manna in the wilderness and are dead.
The analogy is applicable but Christ is Greater than the bread that they ate. He is the "everlasting bread of life".
I have said repeatedly here that salvation is BOTH synergism and monergism. The power in salvation is God's alone. However, belief is a requirement from man.
No. The body isn't dead like Lazarus. It is targeted for death but it yet alive. If it were dead, you couldn't hear/read me. I've said this many times now. Even the Spiritual is confined to the natural. You can not understand Spiritual things unless you hear them in man's language. You must understand the natural language of men to be saved.
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praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Even sinners love their own? I think you remember those verses.....
The will is not so enslaved. You are starting with your premise without first establishing it. Please establish it. I don't believe you can. Please prove me wrong. Tell me how love isn't good.
I disagree. A bad choice is free. Love is not worldly goodness. Natural men love because they are made in the image of God. Man is an imperfect image of God but he certainly is in the image of God. Notice how Paul appeals to "of the same lump" in dealing with Rome.
There are measures of love. Not the absence of love in humanity. Jesus often appealed to the natural love of mankind one for another. John said you can't say you love God and hate your brother.
The knowledge found naturally in the Gospel enlightens. If she (wife) spoke as a barbarian to you, then you wouldn't know her. That is why the Gospel is preached in various languages of men. Man to man. Faith to faith.
Why are you appealing to enlightenment and then appealing to training? They are naturally two seperate things.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Correct and this is natural within us.
civic
Well-known member
Johann
Well-known member
So you agree salvation is both synergistic and monergism--as outlined here--
Synergism:
Synergism comes from the Greek word "synergos," which means "working together." In a theological context, synergism is the view that human free will and divine grace cooperate in the process of salvation. This means that while God's grace initiates and enables salvation, human beings must respond and cooperate with that grace through their faith and actions.
Key Points of Synergism:
Human Responsibility: Humans have a role in accepting or rejecting God's grace.
Free Will: Human free will is involved in the process of salvation.
Divine-Human Cooperation: Salvation is seen as a cooperative effort between God and humans.
Scriptural Support for Synergism:
Philippians 2:12-13 (NIV): "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose."
James 2:17 (NIV): "In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."
Matthew 23:37 (NIV): "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."
Theological Traditions Emphasizing Synergism:
Arminianism: Emphasizes prevenient grace, which is grace that precedes human decision and enables humans to respond to God’s call.
Eastern Orthodoxy: Teaches that salvation involves cooperation between God's grace and human freedom.
Roman Catholicism: Holds that human free will cooperates with divine grace in the process of justification and sanctification.
Monergism:
Monergism comes from the Greek word "monergos," which means "working alone." In a theological context, monergism is the view that God alone is responsible for the initiation and completion of salvation. This means that human beings do not cooperate with God in the act of being saved; rather, salvation is solely an act of God's grace.
Key Points of Monergism:
Divine Sovereignty: God alone initiates and completes the work of salvation.
Human Inability: Humans are seen as totally depraved and unable to contribute to their salvation.
Grace Alone: Salvation is entirely a work of God’s grace, with no human cooperation.
Scriptural Support for Monergism:
Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV): "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."
John 6:44 (NIV): "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."
Romans 9:16 (NIV): "It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy."
Theological Traditions Emphasizing Monergism:
Calvinism: Emphasizes the doctrines of total depravity, unconditional election, and irresistible grace, which align with the monergistic view.
Reformed Theology: Generally holds to the view that God’s grace alone is responsible for salvation, without human cooperation.
Conclusion:
1. Synergism asserts that salvation is a cooperative process between God and humans, emphasizing human responsibility and free will in responding to God's grace.
2. Monergism asserts that salvation is entirely the work of God, emphasizing divine sovereignty and human inability to contribute to salvation.
You confessed that--
"I have said repeatedly here that salvation is BOTH synergism and monergism. The power in salvation is God's alone. However, belief is a requirement from man."
Then it would seem, biblically, the Scriptures lean towards Reformed theology @praise_yeshua as I believe point 2 is biblicallly correct.
Here is my understanding of "the will" it cannot act independently and apart from the will of our Lord Christ Jesus for scripture declares "I have come to do Your will"
Elsewhere it is written that we are to deny the ego eimi-take up our cross and keep on following our Master-i.e. A "Detroned boule/thelema" a "will" wholly swallowed up in the sweet will of Christ Jesus-a "will" that is keeping in step with the will of the Holy Spirit..
Do we agree @praise_yeshua?
Johann
Well-known member
I'm afraid you "did not come through" @Biblelesson
Biblelesson
Active member
My question is about the translation and the theological significance of the word used both by Peter in Acts 5:31 and the author of Hebrews to describe our Lord Jesus: archegos. Jesus takes the lead in salvation. His sheep hear his voice.
Here, He pointing out that sheep only recognize the voice of their particular shepherd—those who don't listen to the witness of Jesus are proving they're not part of His "flock" John 10:1–6
To get a clear picture of Jesus’ meaning in this statement, it is helpful to understand a little of that ancient culture, especially of sheep and shepherding. Of all domesticated animals, sheep are the most helpless. Sheep will spend their entire day grazing, wandering from place to place, never looking up. As a result, they often become lost. But sheep have no “homing instinct” as other animals do. They are totally incapable of finding their way to their sheepfold even when it is in plain sight. By nature, sheep are followers. If the lead sheep steps off a cliff, the others will follow.
It also appears in Hebrews: Jesus is the author of our salvation who was made perfect through suffering and as such HE brings many sons to glory. Heb. 2:10
Now the same term reappears towards the end of the letter, in Hebrews 12:2, where our Lord is now described as “the author of our faith who brings it to perfection.”
Jesus is the one that gives us our faith and brings it to perfection in him. It's not something we come up with on our own.
Biblelesson
Active member
Fear not! But you're right I did not come through Jesus brought me through.
Johann
Well-known member
Nothing wrong with your post brother-do you study Greek and Hebrew? Word studies and Grammars?
Biblelesson
Active member
Only on a need to know Basis. It's so easy to look things up in this day and age with the information highway available at our fingertips.
Here's one for you.
While the singular form “grammar" is most often used for both singular and plural references, its plural form, “grammars” might occasionally be used for discussing different types of grammar. An example: “How are the grammars of the common man and rich man alike and different?”
Johann
Well-known member
Hmm-something like this, perhaps?
The grammar of the common man and the rich man is fundamentally alike in that both groups typically use the same basic grammatical rules of their language. However, there can be notable differences influenced by factors such as education, social context, and cultural exposure. Here’s a breakdown of the similarities and differences:
Similarities
Basic Grammatical Structure:
Both the common man and the rich man follow the same basic rules of grammar. For example, in English, sentences are typically structured with a subject, verb, and object (e.g., "The cat (subject) sat (verb) on the mat (object).").
The use of tenses, pronouns, prepositions, conjunctions, and other parts of speech are governed by the same grammatical rules for everyone.
Universal Grammar:
Noam Chomsky’s theory of Universal Grammar suggests that the ability to acquire language is innate to all humans, meaning that basic grammatical structures are hardwired into the brain and are the same across all social strata.
Differences
Vocabulary and Lexical Choices:
Rich Man: May use more sophisticated or specialized vocabulary, often due to higher education levels or exposure to formal settings.
Common Man: May use simpler, more colloquial language that is more accessible and relatable to the general population.
Formality and Register:
Rich Man: Often speaks in a more formal register, especially in professional or high-society contexts. This includes more precise and complex sentence structures.
Common Man: Likely uses an informal or colloquial register, with more contractions, slang, and idiomatic expressions.
Code-Switching:
Rich Man: May switch between formal and informal registers depending on the context, such as using formal language in business meetings and informal language in casual conversations.
Common Man: Also practices code-switching but might do so less frequently or in different contexts, such as speaking formally at work and informally at home.
Educational Influence:
Rich Man: Access to higher education can lead to a better understanding and use of grammatical nuances and complex structures.
Common Man: Education level varies widely, potentially leading to less frequent use of advanced grammatical constructs.
Exposure to Multiple Dialects/Accents:
Rich Man: Often exposed to diverse dialects and accents through travel, media, and social networks, which can influence their grammatical choices.
Common Man: May be more influenced by local dialects and regional language variations.
Influence of Social Networks:
Rich Man: Social networks might include individuals from various educational and professional backgrounds, influencing more standardized and formal grammar.
Common Man: Social networks might be more homogenous, influencing language use to be more uniform and potentially more relaxed in terms of grammatical strictness.
Examples:
Rich Man: "We need to strategize our approach to maximize the synergies between our departments and optimize operational efficiencies."
Common Man: "We should figure out how to get our teams working better together so things run smoother."
Conclusion
While the basic grammatical structures are the same for both the common man and the rich man, differences arise primarily from education, social context, and exposure to diverse linguistic environments. These differences manifest in vocabulary, formality, and the complexity of language used. However, both groups are capable of code-switching and adapting their language use to different contexts.
yes?
Biblelesson
Active member
Exactly, why take a course on grammar when you can learn all about it on the internet.
What does "it's all Greek to me mean?"
That's Greek to me or it's (all) Greek to me is an idiom in English referring to material that the speaker finds difficult or impossible to understand. It is commonly used in reference to a complex or imprecise verbal or written expression, that may use unfamiliar jargon, dialect, or symbols.
Johann
Well-known member
Excately--back to the Scripture--
Eph 2:1 And Καὶ you, ὑμᾶς being ὄντας dead νεκροὺς in τοῖς your ὑμῶν, trespasses παραπτώμασιν and καὶ - ταῖς sins — ἁμαρτίαις
Eph 2:5 made [us] alive with συνεζωοποίησεν - τῷ Christ Χριστῷ,— even καὶ we ἡμᾶς being ὄντας dead νεκροὺς - τοῖς in trespasses — παραπτώμασιν by grace χάριτί you are ἐστε saved — σεσῳσμένοι,—
What precedes what here,regeneration, faith?
Glad to know you make use of modern technology-freely available,
Johann
Well-known member
Very simple-so I read it in my Bible, and so I believe it and I simply cannot understand why men are making it so complicated!
Johann.
