No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[TomL]

If all don't believe who Christ draws to himself then he told a lie.

Only if you assume his drawing results in all believing

 

[e v e]

Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,

It also means that no man has the ability to believe on Christ for Salvation. Because Christ equates believing on Him with coming to Him. Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


What about those Jesus says to them Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Thats answered in Jn 6:44 they simply will not come because they cannot come unless the Power of God draws them and makes them willing

Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

If and when one comes to believe on Christ willingly, the credit goes to Gods Power !

op is incorrect.
for a soul Has a choice,
even if that choice is tiny,
even if all the choice is, is 'agreeing with God.'

if not, it seems the inverse would be true and choosing evil was not possible
for adam and eve, and the fall was God's will..
sin would not be possible as a concept!... so it would be a twisted
leibnizian occasionalism... and leibniz was
the farthest thing from a real christian!

the theology mentioned is an utter inversion of things... created by
esaus to harm souls, since whenever the "i am saved already"
concept started as a way to HARM souls.

and not true.

saved means , not just accepting Christ but meeting Him on the
clouds as part of it... and getting out of dodge (this hellscape earth.)
otherwise one is jumping the gun.

as for sin, this world, body and type of nature is sin..
we are there, in it, and the point is to Return to Him
in His paradise Home he made for us..
not to enjoy or fallen matrix.

 

[brightfame52]

Only if you assume his drawing results in all believing

Did Jesus say that He would draw the all to myself? If He didn't then He lied.

 

[brightfame52]

op is incorrect.
for a soul Has a choice

Absolutely false from the start

 

[TomL]

Did Jesus say that He would draw the all to myself? If He didn't then He lied.

Yes, he did.

So are you claiming all men are saved?

 

[FreeInChrist]

Did Jesus say that He would draw the all to myself? If He didn't then He lied.

You tell me.

John 6:44 is where Jesus declares that "no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, he did

Okay then that is conversion to Christ, He successfully drew them to Himself

 

[brightfame52]

You tell me

I already have

 

[civic]

Only if you assume his drawing results in all believing

ditto

 

[civic]

Okay then that is conversion to Christ, He successfully drew them to Himself

wrong drawing is not conversion, you made that up.

 

[brightfame52]

wrong drawing is not conversion, you made that up.

Yes it is conversion. They are converted unto Christ

 

[civic]

Yes it is conversion. They are converted unto Christ

nope the bible never says that, nice try though.

 

[brightfame52]

nope the bible never says that, nice try though.

Yes it does. Jesus said He will draw all to Him. That's conversion to Him

Another way of saying it is bringing us to God, that was the objective of Christ Death 1 Peter 3 18

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
The US is the elect of 1 Peter 1:2

So again conversion

 

[TomL]

Okay then that is conversion to Christ, He successfully drew them to Himself

So are you now a universalist?

 

[TomL]

Yes it does. Jesus said He will draw all to Him. That's conversion to Him

Another way of saying it is bringing us to God, that was the objective of Christ Death 1 Peter 3 18

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
The US is the elect of 1 Peter 1:2

So again conversion

Nope

The term helkō (to draw) is not always an expression of irresistible power in the mechanical sense. Its basic meaning is “to draw,” “tug,” or “compel,” and can refer to various types of drawing, including inner influences on the will1.

As Leroy Forlines suggests, interpreting helkō as a “forceful attraction” imposes an alien concept on the text. When used in interpersonal relationships, it describes a divine person relating to human persons created in God’s image—persons who make meaningful choices. God draws people not with force, but with gentleness and love2. As Spurgeon eloquently put it, we “yield to the drawings because they come from the Lord’s own hand, and their power lies in his love.” William Greenhill the Puritan described this process beautifully: God “sweetens their wills, and overcomes them with kindness and Truth... does not force a man’s will, but He sweetly and lovingly takes away the unwilling part of his will”3. Critically, there is “no thought here of force or magic,” and the apparent contradiction shows that both divine election and the universality of grace must be taken seriously—the compulsion is not automatic1.

1. 1
   Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich, and Geoffrey William Bromiley, in Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume (Grand Rapids, MI: W.B. Eerdmans, 1985), 227.
2. 2
   J. Matthew Pinson, 40 Questions about Arminianism, ed. Benjamin L. Merkle, 40 Questions Series (Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Academic, 2022), 236.
3. 3
   Curt Daniel, The History and Theology of Calvinism (Darlington, Co Durham: EP Books, 2019), 539.

 

[brightfame52]

So are you now a universalist?

How is that? I believe in definite atonement, you ever heard of Tulip?

 

[brightfame52]

Nope

Yes , He draws them unto Himself. That's conversion. He persuades them, wins them to Himself. The word for draw has a metaphorical Spiritual meaning:

2. metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας ... ἑλκουσης ἐπί ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπό τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (11).trahitsuaquemquevoluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρός ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; (Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.)https://biblehub.com/greek/1670.htm

 

[FreeInChrist]

Yes it is conversion. They are converted unto Christ

Wait a minute... as usual you twist things to fit your own need.

Is it the Father drawing them to the Son or is it the Son drawing them?

You keep saying that only the elect are drawn... not all.

Why would the elect need to be drawn to be converted.

Either way, neither fits with the notion of predestination now does it?

Okay then that is conversion to Christ, He successfully drew them to Himself

What happened to God drawing them to Christ?

 

[FreeInChrist]

Yes , He draws them unto Himself. That's conversion. He persuades them, wins them to Himself. The word for draw has a metaphorical Spiritual meaning:

You are talking about people who were not predestined, correct?

2. metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας ... ἑλκουσης ἐπί ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπό τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (11).trahitsuaquemquevoluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρός ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; (Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.)https://biblehub.com/greek/1670.htm

 

[brightfame52]

What happened to God drawing them to Christ?

You mean the Father? They are One with the Spirit.