The Unitarian belief that Jesus is not God causes those who offer worship to the Father's Throne (where Jesus sits) to be guilty of idolatry.

[JoshebB]

I answered this question in post 147. Are you going to be like others here and keep asking me the same question I already answered? Or did you just miss post 147 that I addressed to you?

Post 147 does not answer the question asked. Telling me what you are not, does not tell me what you are. It wastes everyone's time and does absolutely nothing to further the discussion. The question having been asked multiple times without an actual answer, everyone now knows you're trolling. Employing ad hominem proves the case.

Titus 3:9-11
But avoid foolish controversies, and genealogies, and strife, and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.

That should have been an easily and readily answered question.

• We, the modalists, Josh.
• We, the JWs, Josh.
• We, the LDS, Josh.
• We, the Oneness Pentecostals, Josh.
• We, the modalistic monarchianists, Josh.

Any number of responses would have been an actual answer to the question asked. I'll waste no more time with you.

 

[JoshebB]

Jesus not having a human father is an argument from silence? The “became” flesh. Revelation 3:14 says Jesus is the first of God’s creation. Colossians 1:15 says Jesus is a creature. Read the Bible.

You might want to check those references because Rev. 3:14 does not say, "Jesus is the first of God's creation,"

Revelation 3:14
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God, says this:

and Colossians 1:15 does not say "Jesus is a creature,"

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.


Doctrinal eisegetic bias is showing.

 

[TomL]

You might want to check those references because Rev. 3:14 does not say, "Jesus is the first of God's creation,"

Revelation 3:14
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God, says this:

and Colossians 1:15 does not say "Jesus is a creature,"

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.


Doctrinal eisegetic bias is showing.

Indeed context is lost as he focuses on a word he can pour his theology into

Colossians 1:15–17 (LEB) — 15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, 16 because all things in the heavens and on the earth were created by him, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all things were created through him and for him, 17 and he himself is before all things, and in him all things are held together,


And imagines firstborn of every creature makes him a creature. Not realizing the very next verse explain this for us

He is the firstborn the pre-eminent one because he created all things that are in heaven and earth. All things were created by him, he therefore cannot be a creature.

 

[Runningman]

Since Richard is not here and since you want me to speak for myself. Then let's do that. Here's from my very own book showing Jesus is not God. Even after Jesus became the first resurrected man and is in heaven. Paul is still referring to him as a man as @Runningman was so sharp in noticing.

Chapter 5 from my online book that you can view here... https://www.carb-fat.com/jesus.html

Mediator: One who intervenes between two parties. (24)

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hebrews 12:24
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,

A mediator is the third party through whom agreement is reached between two parties previously in conflict with each other. Christ is the mediator of the new covenant, the one whose action makes the covenant possible, and who is the guarantor of its execution. Christ Jesus is the one functioning as a go between, in order to initiate a relationship with us because he is literally connected to both sides, and therefore he is set between God and us. It's our big brother Christ Jesus, who is the one who is acting as a guarantee—to secure something that otherwise would not be obtained. Christ is the better covenant, the new covenant, guaranteeing its terms for the Christian people before the almighty God. Christ Jesus is producing peace for the salvation of his Church and has made a promise of assurance that the new covenant will perform satisfactorily because he is the one who is set between God and us.

Advocate: He who has been or may be called to help; a pleader who comes forward in favor of, and as the representative of another. (25)

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Jesus Christ is the person who is professionally qualified legally to plead our case in the highest court. As a technical term, advocate was used mainly in the legal systems that was derived from the Roman law. Christ, and only Christ, has taken the position of an advocate for us with God, and therefore he must have some claim upon the divine benefaction and the legal right to stand with us and speak in our defense. What a wonderful day it will be in our community, in our lives, and in our hearts when we realize the breach of God’s laws have been completely paid for, and Jesus Christ is in the heavenly courtroom to plead our case. We who were dead in our sins, because we were without God and without hope for salvation, have been made alive by an attorney who paid the consequences for our shortcomings and has taken up residence at the right hand of the throne of God to defend us.

Intercessor: Is one who intercedes on behalf of another. (26)

Romans 8:34
It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Hebrews 9:24
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

The intercessor must have standing before God, just as defense attorneys must have standing before the court where they are pleading. Christ Jesus intercedes by placing his incorruptible life at the service of the Christian people to help in the form of a supporter. Christ has undertaken to see to it that this new covenant will not go unfulfilled since this function of the intercessor is related to the divine promise that is in the relation between God's sworn oath and us. Since God is one of the parties involved in the covenant and since there is no higher court that God could represent His covenant in relation to us; the only possible solution is to have Christ vouch for God’s oath to the new covenant. Since we are the other party involved in the covenant and since God has made His Son our brother and Lord, by way of the spirit of Christ within us; the only possible solution is to have Christ vouch for us in the relationship of this new covenant.

It's quite clear Jesus is a distinct being from God.

 

[Runningman]

No your argument about the Holy Spirit is one from silence. Try and follow the argument instead of diverting it.

I don't argue from silence. What do you suppose my argument was since I have no idea what you are talking about?

 

[Runningman]

Revelation 3:14 "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;"
YOU made a big blunder, the FIRST of God creation. is not God the First of his Creation in Genesis 1:1? listen, Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
Beginning: H7225 רֵאשִׁית re'shiyth (ray-sheeth') n-f.
1. the first, in place, time, order or rank.
2. (specifically) a firstfruit.
[from the same as H7218]
KJV: beginning, chief(-est), first(-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
Root(s): H7218
now this, Colossians 1:15 "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:" FROM THE DEAD. Colossians 1:18 "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

preeminence: G4409 πρωτεύω proteuo (prō-tev'-ō) v.
to be first (in rank or influence).
[from G4413]
KJV: have the preeminence
Root(s): G4413

not a creation but the "FIRST" in the NEW CREATION from the DEAD.

101G.

Revelation 3:14 in regards to Jesus being the "beginning" of the creation of God is a very common translation and an honest one. It also fully supports Unitarianism. It means that Jesus was created. It doesn't refer to beginning in the sense of rank, but rather in a temporal sense. That means on a timeline in creation, he is the beginning.

HELPS Word-studies​

746 arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent").​

There are also versions that say Jesus is the originator of God's creation which ignores the context of the very verse it's in and inserts contradictions into Scripture. If Jesus was the originator of God's creation then God isn't the Creator. That pretty much overthrows the entire Bible since Creation originated from God yet some versions of Revelation 3:14 say that creation did not originate from God.

Just one of the many many many dogmatic and biased translation one may find in Bibles translated by Trinitarians and their sponsors.

Since you mentioned Genesis 1, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that there is no one there named Jesus. Jesus was the name given to a human baby, not the name of an alleged pre-incarnate person. Nor is there someone there named the Word.

 

[Runningman]

You might want to check those references because Rev. 3:14 does not say, "Jesus is the first of God's creation,"

Revelation 3:14
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God, says this:

and Colossians 1:15 does not say "Jesus is a creature,"

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.


Doctrinal eisegetic bias is showing.

Colossians 1:15 places Jesus in the same category as the creation. So does Revelation 3:14.

 

[MTMattie]

It's quite clear Jesus is a distinct being from God.

Who ever said he was not.

No Trinitarian that I know ever did.

God in 3 persons.... 3 separate... 3 needed to make a TRI... so learn that first before saying one of them is not one of the three.

No one ever said or believes they are not separate. EXCEPT YOU

BTW what year was the bible written that you follow?

Who did the translations?

King Jimmy had ... When the translation commenced in 1604-1605, the majority of the Translators, 22, were in their forties, 16 men were in their thirties, 15 in their fifties, 3 in their sixties and 3 in their twenties. 59 men altogether.

 

[MTMattie]

Revelation 3:14 in regards to Jesus being the "beginning" of the creation of God is a very common translation and an honest one. It also fully supports Unitarianism. It means that Jesus was created. It doesn't refer to beginning in the sense of rank, but rather in a temporal sense. That means on a timeline in creation, he is the beginning.

HELPS Word-studies​

746 arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent").​

There are also versions that say Jesus is the originator of God's creation which ignores the context of the very verse it's in and inserts contradictions into Scripture. If Jesus was the originator of God's creation then God isn't the Creator. That pretty much overthrows the entire Bible since Creation originated from God yet some versions of Revelation 3:14 say that creation did not originate from God.

Just one of the many many many dogmatic and biased translation one may find in Bibles translated by Trinitarians and their sponsors.

Since you mentioned Genesis 1, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that there is no one there named Jesus. Jesus was the name given to a human baby, not the name of an alleged pre-incarnate person. Nor is there someone there named the Word.

John, Jesus' most beloved , was wrong? The disciple whom Jesus loved self-identifies as the author of the gospel (John 21:24),

If he can't get it right neither can you cause he would have an inside track to inside knowledge.

 

[Runningman]

Who ever said he was not.

No Trinitarian that I know ever did.

God in 3 persons.... 3 separate... 3 needed to make a TRI... so learn that first before saying one of them is not one of the three.

No one ever said or believes they are not separate. EXCEPT YOU

BTW what year was the bible written that you follow?

Who did the translations?

King Jimmy had ... When the translation commenced in 1604-1605, the majority of the Translators, 22, were in their forties, 16 men were in their thirties, 15 in their fifties, 3 in their sixties and 3 in their twenties. 59 men altogether.

My default Bible is the KJV or Berean Standard Bible. I dabble in the NIV and ESV. I almost exclusively use Trinitarian translations. I also check the LXX and Complete Jewish Bible periodically.

Will you give me an example where if one were to replace the word "God" in the Bible with "Trinity" that it would make sense? Preferably the New Testament, but take your pick from anywhere as long as you're willing to indulge me.

 

[synergy]

Revelation 3:14 in regards to Jesus being the "beginning" of the creation of God is a very common translation and an honest one. It also fully supports Unitarianism. It means that Jesus was created. It doesn't refer to beginning in the sense of rank, but rather in a temporal sense. That means on a timeline in creation, he is the beginning.

HELPS Word-studies​

746 arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent").​

There are also versions that say Jesus is the originator of God's creation which ignores the context of the very verse it's in and inserts contradictions into Scripture.

Huh? First of all, your assertion flies in the face of John 1:3 that declares that the Word of God, who is God and became flesh as Jesus, created everything. If Jesus was a pure creature then he would have had to create himself.

Second of all, your assertion is linguistically awkward. Rev 3:14 mentions the names of Christ in a row: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of God. After those titles, the Angel mentions what Christs says. It is silly to mention names and then break the flow by inserting a non-name attribute and have that attribute say something. Attributes don't speak, people do.

Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church of the Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of God, says these things:

If Jesus was the originator of God's creation then God isn't the Creator. That pretty much overthrows the entire Bible since Creation originated from God yet some versions of Revelation 3:14 say that creation did not originate from God.

False Dichotomy. John 1:1 says "the Word was God". Jesus is God. Your assertion fails.

 

[Runningman]

John, Jesus' most beloved , was wrong? The disciple whom Jesus loved self-identifies as the author of the gospel (John 21:24),

If he can't get it right neither can you cause he would have an inside track to inside knowledge.

John wrote Revelation as well. John appears all over the Bible. He typically parts theologically from his poem in John 1. See his prayer in Acts 4:23-30 where he prayed to someone else who isn't Jesus, saying He's God, the Sovereign Lord and Creator, while referring to Jesus as His servant. See 1 John 1:1-3 where he refers to the Word of life as eternal life and an it. Almost every Bible translates it as a thing rather than a person.

How could John say "The Word was God" and then refer to the Word as a thing or not even the recipient of prayer? That's the dilemma I see. I believe the Word in John 1 is most likely just personification of a non-person thing and suffers from translation issues as well.

 

[Runningman]

Huh? First of all, your assertion flies in the face of John 1:3 that declares that the Word of God, who is God and became flesh as Jesus, created everything. If Jesus was a pure creature then he would have had to create himself.

John 1:2-3 doesn't say what you just said.

Here's a simple English test. Which noun does the pro-noun "Him" refer to below?

John 1
2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

Second of all, your assertion is linguistically awkward. Rev 3:14 mentions the names of Christ in a row: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of God. After those titles, the Angel mentions what Christs says. It is silly to mention names and then break the flow by inserting a non-name attribute and have that attribute say something. Attributes don't speak, people do.

Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church of the Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of God, says these things:

False Dichotomy. John 1:1 says "the Word was God". Jesus is God. Your assertion fails.

Revelation 3:14, according to Greek grammar experts (I cited HELPS word studies) says that the beginning of the creation of God refers to the temporal sense. It makes perfect sense because it's biblically accurate. Hopefully what I wrote above will clear up your misunderstanding. It's up to you now.

 

[synergy]

John wrote Revelation as well. John appears all over the Bible. He typically parts from his poem in John 1. See his prayed in Acts 4:23-30 where he prayed to someone else who isn't Jesus, saying He's the Sovereign Lord and Creator, while referring to Jesus as His servant. See 1 John 1:1-3 where he refers to the Word of life as eternal life. Almost every Bible translates it as a thing rather than a person.

How could John say "The Word was God" and then refer to the Word as a thing or not even the recipient of prayer? That's the dilemma I see. I believe the Word in John 1 is most likely just personification of a non-person thing and suffers from translation issues as well.

Where did John refer to the Word of God, who is God and became flesh as Christ, as a thing?

 

[Runningman]

Where did John refer to the Word of God, who is God and became flesh as Christ, as a thing?

1 John 1:1-3

 

[synergy]

John 1:2-3 doesn't say what you just said.

Here's a simple English test. Which noun does the pro-noun "Him" refer to below?

John 1
2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

Who is the "He" and "Him" who John bore witness of and came into the world?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God; his name was John.
Joh 1:7 This one came as a witness, to bear witness concerning the Light, so that all might believe through him.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and the world did not know Him.
Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own received Him not.

Revelation 3:14, according to Greek grammar experts (I cited HELPS word studies) says that the beginning of the creation of God refers to the temporal sense. It makes perfect sense because it's biblically accurate. Hopefully what I wrote above will clear up your misunderstanding. It's up to you now.

Even in Greek, attributes do not speak, People do. Greeks are not that stupid.

 

[JoshebB]

Indeed context is lost as he focuses on a word he can pour his theology into

I will not talk about the poster in derogatory manner without justification or in violation of the tou.

Colossians 1:15–17 (LEB) — 15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, 16 because all things in the heavens and on the earth were created by him, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all things were created through him and for him, 17 and he himself is before all things, and in him all things are held together,


And imagines firstborn of every creature makes him a creature. Not realizing the very next verse explain this for us

He is the firstborn the pre-eminent one because he created all things that are in heaven and earth. All things were created by him, he therefore cannot be a creature.

Yes, the whole of scripture informs every single verse.

In this case, the non-trin use of Col. 1:15 runs into conflict with a creature creating creation . This remains so even if the Greek "en" is translated "in," instead of "by." I will certainly take up that case if and when I find an attempt at reasonable and rational case for non-trinitarianism. In the absence of such a case there is no reason to engage fallacy beyond simply noting the fallacy (-ies) and asking for change. Those who won't answer the simplest of questions, employ argumentum ad populum and ad hominem (or any other logical fallacy), and blatantly misrepresent proof-texted verses without self-correction when the problems are noted aren't worth anyone's time and effort. It's best to simply make an alternative case so the less knowledgeable have some context and a means of recognizing the dross...... and move on.

Most of the non-trins here are cultists. By definition, they have no justification for arguing anything. It's only by grace and for the purpose of their evangelism that they're permitted in most Christian forums and gratitude for it is rarely expressed.

 

[synergy]

1 John 1:1-3

All pronouns of the Word ("He", "Him") are Personal!
The Word is grammatically being treated as a Person.
Where do you see the word "it"? You need new glasses.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

 

[JoshebB]

Colossians 1:15 places Jesus in the same category as the creation. So does Revelation 3:14.

Do not dodge the point. The verses cited do not state what was claimed, nor should they be made to say such. Once the verses are read (and I quoted them for that very purpose) this becomes self-evident. It's not up for debate and dodging the mistake is dross. First correct your mistake and the maybe then I'll engage your position. It's real simple.

"Yes, that is correct, Josh. Those two verses do not actually say what I posted...... but here's why I made those claims....."​

Anything else is subterfuge. I've already found one non-trin here who thinks it's acceptable to dodge questions, employ fallacy, and accuse, mock, and ridicule others. Don't be that guy (or at least go be that guy with someone else). Even though we disagree Christologically..... I was trying to help you form your case! It's not okay for anyone, Trin or non-trin, to say scripture says "X" when it says no such thing. Fix the mistake.

 

[synergy]

Do not dodge the point. The verses cited do not state what was claimed, nor should they be made to say such. Once the verses are read (and I quoted them for that very purpose) this becomes self-evident. It's not up for debate and dodging the mistake is dross. First correct your mistake and the maybe then I'll engage your position. It's real simple.

"Yes, that is correct, Josh. Those two verses do not actually say what I posted...... but here's why I made those claims....."​

Anything else is subterfuge. I've already found one non-trin here who thinks it's acceptable to dodge questions, employ fallacy, and accuse, mock, and ridicule others. Don't be that guy (or at least go be that guy with someone else). Even though we disagree Christologically..... I was trying to help you form your case! It's not okay for anyone, Trin or non-trin, to say scripture says "X" when it says no such thing. Fix the mistake.

Edit: see rules