The Unitarian belief that Jesus is not God causes those who offer worship to the Father's Throne (where Jesus sits) to be guilty of idolatry.

[101G]

Revelation 3:14 in regards to Jesus being the "beginning" of the creation of God is a very common translation and an honest one. It also fully supports Unitarianism. It means that Jesus was created. It doesn't refer to beginning in the sense of rank, but rather in a temporal sense. That means on a timeline in creation, he is the beginning.

HELPS Word-studies746 arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent").

Please read your definition again. ""the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent")."
preeminence: G4409 πρωτεύω proteuo (prō-tev'-ō) v.
to be first (in rank or influence).
[from G4413]
KJV: have the preeminence
Root(s): G4413

the ROOT of the Word: G4413 πρῶτος protos (prō'-tos) adj.
foremost (in time, place, order or importance).
[contracted superlative of G4253]
KJV: before, beginning, best, chief(-est), first (of all), former
Root(s): G4253

ROOT:
G4253 πρό pro (pro') prep.
1. (of location or time) before (i.e. in front of or prior to).
2. (thus also, of time) prior to.
3. (of specified time) ago (i.e. five days ago or five days prior).
4. (figuratively) above (i.e. superseding, superior to).
{In the comparative, it retains the same significations}
[a primary preposition]
KJV: above, ago, before, or ever

my God this is just too easy not to be misunderstood.

101G

 

[Runningman]

Who is the "He" and "Him" who John bore witness of and came into the world?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God; his name was John.
Joh 1:7 This one came as a witness, to bear witness concerning the Light, so that all might believe through him.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and the world did not know Him.
Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own received Him not.

The Him in John 1:3 refers to the God the Word was with in the beginning. Correct, God is the light of men. Correct, John came bearing witness of God. Correct, the true Light is God who was coming into the world in the present tense. That would make Jesus 30 years old at that time and not the true Light.

This debunks the Word being God.

Even in Greek, attributes do not speak, People do. Greeks are not that stupid.

Also, the RSV, which is what you seemed to have used above, parts from most Bibles on how John 1 is translated.

 

[Runningman]

All pronouns of the Word ("He", "Him") are Personal!
The Word is grammatically being treated as a Person.
Where do you see the word "it"? You need new glasses.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

Most versions and translation of 1 John 1:1-3 refer to the Word of life as a thing.

Here's the NIV. A that, which, this, and it isn't a person.

1 John 1:1-3
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

 

[Runningman]

Do not dodge the point. The verses cited do not state what was claimed, nor should they be made to say such. Once the verses are read (and I quoted them for that very purpose) this becomes self-evident. It's not up for debate and dodging the mistake is dross. First correct your mistake and the maybe then I'll engage your position. It's real simple.

"Yes, that is correct, Josh. Those two verses do not actually say what I posted...... but here's why I made those claims....."​

Anything else is subterfuge. I've already found one non-trin here who thinks it's acceptable to dodge questions, employ fallacy, and accuse, mock, and ridicule others. Don't be that guy (or at least go be that guy with someone else). Even though we disagree Christologically..... I was trying to help you form your case! It's not okay for anyone, Trin or non-trin, to say scripture says "X" when it says no such thing. Fix the mistake.

Why would I dodge my point about Jesus being a creation? Slow down. You're not making sense.

Colossians 1:15 is pretty straight forward about Jesus being a creature in plain English.

The subject is the firstborn with the preposition "of" meaning that the firstborn belongs to or originates from the creatures. Therefore, the firstborn is in the category of the creatures and not separate from creation and is included with "every creature." Therefore the firstborn is not independent from the creatures, and therefore isn't God. Hence, he is the "image of the invisible God" and not the invisible God. 1 Timothy 1:17 proves Jesus isn't God with Colossians 1:15.

Colossians 1 (KJV)
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

1 Timothy 1 (KJV)
17Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[101G]

The He in John 1:3 refers to the God the Word was with in the beginning.

he is the Lord JESUS who is GOD Almighty. who is the same one person in Isaiah 44:24 who MADE ALL THINGS.

101G.

 

[Runningman]

@Runningman has been honest in naming himself "Runningman" because he is a man who will always run away from English Grammar, Greek Grammar, Basic Logic, and Historical Facts.

I invite you to join the debate on the english grammar. keep up with Runningman if you can.

 

[Runningman]

he is the Lord JESUS who is GOD Almighty. who is the same one person in Isaiah 44:24 who MADE ALL THINGS.

101G.

The Bible disproves that. John 1:3 proves the Word isn't the creator using basic english.

 

[101G]

The Bible disproves that. John 1:3 proves the Word isn't the creator using basic english.

the bible do not agree with you, Revelation 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

is this not the Lord Jesus? yes or no...... your answer please.

101G.

 

[Runningman]

Please read your definition again. ""the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent")."
preeminence: G4409 πρωτεύω proteuo (prō-tev'-ō) v.
to be first (in rank or influence).
[from G4413]
KJV: have the preeminence
Root(s): G4413

the ROOT of the Word: G4413 πρῶτος protos (prō'-tos) adj.
foremost (in time, place, order or importance).
[contracted superlative of G4253]
KJV: before, beginning, best, chief(-est), first (of all), former
Root(s): G4253

ROOT:
G4253 πρό pro (pro') prep.
1. (of location or time) before (i.e. in front of or prior to).
2. (thus also, of time) prior to.
3. (of specified time) ago (i.e. five days ago or five days prior).
4. (figuratively) above (i.e. superseding, superior to).
{In the comparative, it retains the same significations}
[a primary preposition]
KJV: above, ago, before, or ever

my God this is just too easy not to be misunderstood.

101G

We aren't talking about the root word. We are talking about the word in Revelation 3:14 that refers to beginning in the temporal sense. Chronologically, Jesus was the first creation. This world is used all over the Bible in this way.

 

[Runningman]

the bible do not agree with you, Revelation 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

is this not the Lord Jesus? yes or no...... your answer please.

101G.

The Bible agrees with me. You don't agree with the Bible. Don't confuse the two. You are essentially saying "no no no Revelation 3:14 is wrong" because you don't want to believe Jesus was created.

Fine let's go to Revelation 4:11. The Lord God Almighty is the creator. Read Revelation 1:4-8 and Revelation 21:22... the Lamb/Jesus isn't the same person as the Lord God Almighty.

 

[101G]

We aren't talking about the root word. We are talking about the word in Revelation 3:14 that refers to beginning in the temporal sense. Chronologically, Jesus was the first creation. This world is used all over the Bible in this way.

where do you think the reason for the word come from? it shows where the current word meaning. Oh my. the CREATION is the NEW CREATION.... Hello....... not that the Lord Jesus is a creature, did you not read ... he created all things in the OLD CREATION, and he is the FIRST in his NEW CREATION... God is always FIRST... why? because he is the SOURCE OF ALL CREATION... Hello/

101G

 

[Runningman]

where do you think the reason for the word come from? it shows where the current word meaning. Oh my. the CREATION is the NEW CREATION.... Hello....... not that the Lord Jesus is a creature, did you not read ... he created all things in the OLD CREATION, and he is the FIRST in his NEW CREATION... God is always FIRST... why? because he is the SOURCE OF ALL CREATION... Hello/

101G

Hello there. Wouldn't Jesus need to be eternal to not be a creature? And wouldn't Colossians 1:15 and Revelation 3:14 need to kinda disappear to make that plausible?

 

[synergy]

The Him in John 1:3 refers to the God the Word was with in the beginning. Correct, God is the light of men. Correct, John came bearing witness of God. Correct, the true Light is God who was coming into the world in the present tense. That would make Jesus 30 years old at that time and not the true Light.

Who did John bear witness of? Jesus Christ, of course, the one upon whom the Spirit remained on.

Joh 1:29 The next day John sees Jesus coming to him and says, Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
Joh 1:30 This is He of whom I said, After me comes a Man who has been before me, for He preceded me.
Joh 1:31 And I did not know Him, but that He be revealed to Israel, therefore I have come baptizing with water.
Joh 1:32 And John bore record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from Heaven like a dove, and He abode on Him.
Joh 1:33 And I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water, that One said to me, Upon whom you shall see the Spirit descending, and remaining upon Him, He is the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.
Joh 1:34 And I saw and bore record that this is the Son of God.

This debunks the Word being God.

John 1:1 debunks your heresy when is says "the Word was God". Can you read English?

Also, the RSV, which is what you seemed to have used above, parts from most Bibles on how John 1 is translated.

Attributes don't speak people speak. Stop making Greeks out to be stupid in your quest to promote your heresies.

 

[101G]

The Bible agrees with me. You don't agree with the Bible. Don't confuse the two. You are essentially saying "no no no Revelation 3:14 is wrong" because you don't want to believe Jesus was created.

Fine let's go to Revelation 4:11. The Lord God Almighty is the creator. Read Revelation 1:4-8 and Revelation 21:22... the Lamb/Jesus isn't the same person as the Lord God Almighty.

let's see, Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." is this not the Lord Jesus? wait, Revelation 21:22 "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." listen the "Lord God and the LAMB.... IS THIS TWO PERSONS? NO, AND HERE WHY. the Lord God. in Revelation 1:1 someone sent his angel to John correct.... well the angel who was sent told us who sent him... listen, Revelation 22:6 "And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."
notice the angel said, "The Lord God" sent him... right.... right. well let's see who is the Lord God by NAME.... Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."
Uh O, the Lord God is the Lord Jesus... now what did Revelation 21:22 "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it."

well you have a dilemma, for the Lord God is the Lord Jesus, and the Lamb is JESUS....... (smile)... LOL, YIKES!!.

CHECK..... and .... MATE.... game over. the Lord Jesus is the Lord Almighty, the Lamb..... read this post again for clearity.

101G.

 

[Runningman]

Who did John bear witness of? Jesus Christ, of course, the one upon whom the Spirit remained on.

Joh 1:29 The next day John sees Jesus coming to him and says, Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
Joh 1:30 This is He of whom I said, After me comes a Man who has been before me, for He preceded me.
Joh 1:31 And I did not know Him, but that He be revealed to Israel, therefore I have come baptizing with water.
Joh 1:32 And John bore record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from Heaven like a dove, and He abode on Him.
Joh 1:33 And I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water, that One said to me, Upon whom you shall see the Spirit descending, and remaining upon Him, He is the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.
Joh 1:34 And I saw and bore record that this is the Son of God.

John bore witness of the Light that gives light to every man coming into the world. Jesus was a man who came into the world, therefore Jesus wasn't the Light giving light to men coming into the world. The True Light is demonstrably not the Word, therefore John is witnessing about two different concepts.

John 1 (KJV)
9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

John 1:1 debunks your heresy when is says "the Word was God". Can you read English?

Attributes don't speak people speak. Stop making Greeks out to be stupid in your quest to promote your heresies.

You have soundly proven that the Word isn't literally God, but mostly likely something or someone who is godly. The context of John 1 completely opposes the idea.

By the way, John wasn't a Greek. Quit trying to make Jewish people bow down to your creedal idols.

 

[101G]

@Runningman
did you understand post #194 completely?

if you have any more questions, just ask.

101G

 

[synergy]

Most versions and translation of 1 John 1:1-3 refer to the Word of life as a thing.

Here's the NIV. A that, which, this, and it isn't a person.

1 John 1:1-3
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

Why did you run away from John 1:1-3?????
This proves again that you continue to run away from Bible verses as the "Runningman".

Let's find out why you ran away from John 1:1-3.

(John 1:2) οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν Θεόν.

οὗτος translates to "Him" clearly destroying your heretical view that the Word of God (Jesus) is a thing.
It's οὗτο that translates to "that" and it's nowhere to be found in John 1:1-3.

 

[101G]

To all my trinitarians, unitarians, and anyone else who is out there.

101G suggest all to read Post #194 carefully. in doing so it answer who is in Revelation 1:1. "ONLY THE Lord JESUS". and in chapter 5 "Only the Lord Jesus sits on the throne and also stand before it, the very throne he sits on" Oh the power of "Diversified Oneness".

101G.

 

[synergy]

I invite you to join the debate on the english grammar. keep up with Runningman if you can.

We just witnessed you running away from John 1:1-3 in Post 197. You are so true to your name of "Runningman".

 

[101G]

Why did you run away from John 1:1-3?????
This proves again that you continue to run away from Bible verses as the "Runningman".

Let's find out why you ran away from John 1:1-3.

(John 1:2) οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν Θεόν.

οὗτος translates to "Him" clearly destroying your heretical view that the Word of God (Jesus) is a thing.
It's οὗτο that translates to "that" and it's nowhere to be found in John 1:1-3.









The NKJV is translated properly.

Correct. the Word is God, just as the Lamb is God in Revelation.

101G.