The Unitarian belief that Jesus is not God causes those who offer worship to the Father's Throne (where Jesus sits) to be guilty of idolatry.

[Pancho Frijoles]

Your denial of Jesus explicitly saying that he is the "I Am" OT God has been noted.

Jesus did not explicitly said he was the "I Am" God of the Old Testament.
He didn't.
So, what you say is not true.

What Jesus explicitly said was "I Am". The inference "God of the Old Testament" is your inference, and a wrong one, because Peter explicitly declared Jesus to be the Son of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

You have again failed miserably to forward even one Bible verse of Jesus explicitly denying he is God.

You said you agreed with my two statements on why Trinitarians and Unitarians depart from a different premise when demanding an explicit statement. It seems you have forgotten or you did not understand in the first place.

So here goes again, in regard to Unitarians:

Unitarians do not need any statement of Jesus explicitly denying He is God, in the same way they don't need any explicit statement from Enoch declaring he is not God.
Once we know from Jesus mouth that His Father is Our God, there is no room for anyone else.

 

[TomL]

I understand what you mean by prayer and praise.
I don't understand what you mean by "adoration" and "religious service".

In regard to prayer, we already discussed that the vast majority of Christians do not pray to Jesus. That doesn't mean they don't worship Him.
In regard to praise, I guess you mean speaking and singing beautiful things about Christ, thanking Him for what He did, for his Love to us, etc.

So, if a Unitarian Christian sings a song praising Jesus, would that be for you evidence that they worship Jesus?

The bible states we are to serve God only

Matthew 4:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

No they must honor him as they honor the Father

 

[TomL]

Jesus did not explicitly said he was the "I Am" God of the Old Testament.
He didn't.
So, what you say is not true.

What Jesus explicitly said was "I Am". The inference "God of the Old Testament" is your inference, and a wrong one, because Peter explicitly declared Jesus to be the Son of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.




You said you agreed with my two statements on why Trinitarians and Unitarians depart from a different premise when demanding an explicit statement. It seems you have forgotten or you did not understand in the first place.

So here goes again, in regard to Unitarians:

Unitarians do not need any statement of Jesus explicitly denying He is God, in the same way they don't need any explicit statement from Enoch declaring he is not God.
Once we know from Jesus mouth that His Father is Our God, there is no room for anyone else.

That begs the question

Assuming God cannot be more than one person

 

[synergy]

He didn't say "I am the I am" so that isn't an explicit declaration of claiming to be God. Where did Jesus say "I am God" like God does? No where? Then you will only always be begging the question without any explicit statements. Understand why Trinitarianism doesn't make any sense? Not even Jesus would say he's God.

In fact, he considered the charge of such a thing as being an accusation. Pray tell. Why would God say being called God is an accusation of wrongdoing?

John 10 (NIV)
36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

This is explicit proof that Jesus saw Abraham and even existed before Abraham as the "I Am", God of the OT.

Now where is that Unitarian explicit statement that Jesus is not God????

 

[synergy]

Jesus did not explicitly said he was the "I Am" God of the Old Testament.
He didn't.
So, what you say is not true.

What Jesus explicitly said was "I Am". The inference "God of the Old Testament" is your inference, and a wrong one, because Peter explicitly declared Jesus to be the Son of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

This is explicit proof that Jesus saw Abraham and even existed before Abraham as the "I Am", God of the OT.

You said you agreed with my two statements on why Trinitarians and Unitarians depart from a different premise when demanding an explicit statement. It seems you have forgotten or you did not understand in the first place.

So here goes again, in regard to Unitarians:

Unitarians do not need any statement of Jesus explicitly denying He is God, in the same way they don't need any explicit statement from Enoch declaring he is not God.
Once we know from Jesus mouth that His Father is Our God, there is no room for anyone else.

What I agreed to and applauded is that both camps should make an effort to find explicit statements as support for their beliefs. Where is your explicit statement that Jesus is not God?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The Pharisees' Unitarian beliefs instructed the Pharisees to stone Jesus.

This claim is unsupported. The twelve apostles believed in YHWH, the God of Abraham, as One Person, and they didn't stone Jesus, did they?

Trinitarians are not polytheists so why are you telling us that?

Because YHWH, for all Jews across time, has been a "He". One Person. One Mind.
Do you believe that God is One Person, One Mind?
If you do, then you believe what Jews believed.

Different audience. Different expectations.
Take that up with Jesus when he condemned the Pharisees for not recognizing him as the Angel of God named "I Am".
(John 8:24) Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins, for if you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins.

What importance would have for Jesus to condemn the Pharisees for not believing He was the Angel of YHWH?
Did the Tanakh teach that the Angel of YHWH was the Pre-incarnate Son of David? If not, then why would Jesus demand that from a Pharisee?

Furthermore, let's forget the Pharisees for a moment. Did Paul or Peter teach that the Angel of YHWH was the Pre-incarnate Christ? What if a Christian did not believe that? Was that a heresy?

Stephan had a fantastic opportunity to have connected the dots you connect in your imagination. He mentioned the Angel of God talking to Moses... then why didn't he take the opportunity to teach something that was SO IMPORTANT?

I don't pass judgment, the Bible does. I'm just the Messenger. Only in Sparta do they eliminate the Messenger.

That's a very old and cheap argument. I have read it hundreds of times in Internet. Literally, hundreds

"It's not me who calls you a snake/anti-Christ/son of the devil/etc... It is the Bible".

My friend: In this Forum each one of us is responsible for our words against our brothers and sisters.
We are not the spokesmen of God or the Bible. We are not Jesus. We are bound to follow the command of Jesus of not passing judgement to others.

 

[TomL]

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

This is explicit proof that Jesus saw Abraham and even existed before Abraham as the "I Am", God of the OT.

Now where is that Unitarian explicit statement that Jesus is not God????

Unitarian John 1:1 — IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was not God.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

What I agreed to and applauded is that both camps should make an effort to find explicit statements as support for their beliefs. Where is your explicit statement that Jesus is not God?

No sir.
You agreed with two specific statements that I made. Here is what you wrote:

I'm perfectly fine with both statements. As a matter of fact, I applaud both statements.
I've done my part. I've supplied John 8:58 and Ex 3:14.
Have the Unitarians done their part?

And here are the two statements

Trinitarians think: "Unless I find an explicit statement in which Jesus says "I am not God", I will keep believing that He is God"
Unitarians think: "Unless I find an explicit statement in which Jesus says "I am God", I will keep believing that God is the Father"

So, if you have actually read, understood and agreed with both statements, please confirm.

 

[synergy]

That's a very old and cheap argument. I have read it hundreds of times in Internet. Literally, hundreds

"It's not me who calls you a snake/anti-Christ/son of the devil/etc... It is the Bible".

My friend: In this Forum each one of us is responsible for our words against our brothers and sisters.
We are not the spokesmen of God or the Bible. We are not Jesus. We are bound to follow the command of Jesus of not passing judgement to others.

It would be plagiarism if I would claim the following words as my words:

(John 8:24) Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins, for if you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Of course I have that right.
Furthermore, I have the moral duty to tell you to check your references, when I am convinced you will learn from doing that.

What I am doing in asking a brother to check his sources is good.
What you are doing, passing moral judgement at almost every single post, is bad. You don't have that right.

What about pot meet kettle part? You're making fake claims everywhere in this forum. You ignore them and pretend it never happened.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You're describing yourself.




Jesus is never described as being equal with the Father or eternal in Scripture.


Open a hypostatic union thread. Let's lay that one to rest as well.


You don't know Jesus. You have a man god and the Scripture rejects that.

Geeeh. Already opened it. Now take a few weeks to review Google..... I'll wait.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

This is explicit proof that Jesus saw Abraham and even existed before Abraham as the "I Am", God of the OT.

No. This is explicit proof that Jesus existed before Abraham.
The inference "As the I am God of the Old Testament" is your inference, and a wrong one, as I have proved.

I don't know why you keep bringing this verse, since Jehovah Witnesses themselves have no problem with it. They also think Jesus preexisted before Abraham.

 

[synergy]

No sir.
You agreed with two specific statements that I made. Here is what you wrote:



And here are the two statements



So, if you have actually read, understood and agreed with both statements, please confirm.

Well, that is my stance. Seeing that I have an explicit statement that Jesus is the OT God, then I will keep believing it until I see one that explicitly contradicts my statement and then I will have to reassess everything based on those 2 statements.

This has happened to me several times before. The most recent one is faith and works. I had to really think things through to get them to harmonize.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Well, that is my stance. Seeing that I have an explicit statement that Jesus is the OT God, then I will keep believing it until I see one that explicitly contradicts my statement and then I will have to reassess everything based on those 2 statements.

Ok, that's very respectable. Although I don't agree with your interpretation of the "I Am", I see your position as consistent.
What you are saying now is line with Statement number 1. Totally understandable.
Peace and Love, my friend.

Now let's examine your ability to appreciate the stance of the other side, as written in Statement number 2.
Remember: Statement number 2 reflects not your stance, but the one of Unitarians.

If you understand our stance please stop demanding from Unitarians an explicit statement from Jesus saying "I am not God".
If you keep making that demand, I will be answering "We don't need an explicit statement of each of the 24 elders and the four beasts saying "I am not God".

 

[synergy]

No. This is explicit proof that Jesus existed before Abraham.

And in what form did Jesus exist before Abraham? As the Preincarnate Jesus. Thank you for making my point.

The inference "As the I am God of the Old Testament" is your inference, and a wrong one, as I have proved.

I don't know why you keep bringing this verse, since Jehovah Witnesses themselves have no problem with it. They also think Jesus preexisted before Abraham.

The JWs have butchered many verses (particularly John 1:1) as anyone who knows Greek can testify. See the link below:

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berean-apologetics.community.forum

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

And in what form did Jesus exist before Abraham? As the Preincarnate Jesus. Thank you for making my point.

I agree with the preexistence of Christ. Who does not? Our friend @Peterlag?

The JWs have butchered many verses (particularly John 1:1) as anyone who knows Greek can testify. See the link below:

Loading…

berean-apologetics.community.forum

Probably, but they agree with the preexistence of Christ.

 

[synergy]

If you understand our stance please stop demanding from Unitarians an explicit statement from Jesus saying "I am not God".
If you keep making that demand, I will be answering "We don't need an explicit statement of each of the 24 elders and the four beasts saying "I am not God".

Not necessarily. All you would need is just one verse statement from the Bible to support your position, from a credible source, preferably Christ.

 

[synergy]

I agree with the preexistence of Christ. Who does not? Our friend Peterlag?

Probably, but they agree with the preexistence of Christ.

Remove the butchering of John 1:1 PLUS the preexistence of Christ = Jesus is God.
Easy breezy.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Not necessarily. All you would need is just one verse statement from the Bible to support your position, from a credible source, preferably Christ.

If you understand Statement 2, you’ll see why Unitarians don’t need an statement from, say, Joshua, in which Joshua denies being God.
If I am not being clear in statement 2, please let me know.
I can reword it as many times and using as many examples until you get it.

 

[synergy]

If you understand Statement 2, you’ll see why Unitarians don’t need an statement from, say, Joshua, in which Joshua denies being God.
If I am not being clear in statement 2, please let me know.
I can reword it as many times and using as many examples until you get it.

I already have an OT Bible statement that says that God is not a man. That covers Joshua.