The Unitarian belief that Jesus is not God causes those who offer worship to the Father's Throne (where Jesus sits) to be guilty of idolatry.

[Pancho Frijoles]

It's amazing how anti-Christians are so quick to denigrate God's Prophets, Apostles, and even Jesus Himself. Here you claim that they did not understand anything. You're claiming anything other than to admit that your thoughts of those of a Judaizer.

So I should be a Nihilist like you and just tear down whatever does not agree with my version of reality?

They certainly did know or should have known about the multiple times that the Preincarnate Jesus did visit many OT Prophets.

That's your interpretation which do not fit the facts at all. Which Messiah was called "I Am"? Which Messiah continued to exist since Abraham's time?

Wait, wait, wait.
That Jews at the time of Jesus or any time before that didn't know about the doctrine of the Trinity is a historical FACT.
A fact recognized by Jews, Christians and non-religious scholars alike.
If you don't know this, review your sources.

 

[praise_yeshua]

And yet you still refuse to answer the question I asked about Paul's description of men, concerning your religious philosophy that "ALL" men exist at your level.

I have answered you many times. You refuse to accept my answer. Problem is your's.

No, I am not better than you. I believe what the Holy Scriptures teach, that God treats all men the same.

Not true.

Luk 10:23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
Luk 10:24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Be accurate in your speech. You're all over the place. Some have privileges that others do not. To whom much is given. Much is required. No surprise you don't know this. As far as Jesus Christ is concerned, Yes. All men are equal in the offering of Jesus Christ for humanity.

If a man sin against God, like he tell lies about another whose refuge is the Lord.

"Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD."

And this Sin is made known to them. And they "say" I repent, but the very next day they tell another lie about a man whose refuge is the Lord.

And they bring the Blood of Jesus, and say, "I am justified" of my sin. But the next day they tell another lie about a man whose refuge is the Lord. they tell others, "you don't love Jesus", you can't please God". Or maybe, they tell someone that their wife is a hooker who doesn't love him as she should.

You're fascinated with this "hooker" response I used. I used it because he present a false Mary Magdalene parrot for his own life. He mocked the life of Jesus Christ doing so. I don't care if you like it or not. I didn't like the fact he mocked Jesus Christ by comparing his own "suffering" to Jesus Christ. How pitiful. Your support of him is telling.

Besides... You're lying again. Jesus said....

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

Ain't it wonderful I can tell you're lying because of what Jesus said. I'll Jesus over your lies any day. Liar.

And you show up again, with the same Blood of an innocent righteous being, and declare, "I am justified" of my abhorrent behavior, by the Blood of Jesus". And they continue in this behavior over and over. Do you believe God is so dense, so clueless that HE doesn't know their repentance isn't real but fake, that they are simply honoring Him with their lips? That they really are not sorry for casting their judgments onto everyone who doesn't adopt their specific religious philosophy? Or they preach to others that if a man was obedient to God, this man may not need Jesus?

Then why do you keep asking God to forgive you for the same sins over and over again? You're equally guilty. You can't see your own sin because you're looking at others. Take a long hard look at that mischievous man staring back you in the mirror.

What I advocate for is what God instructs.

No. You lie about Jesus Christ rather often. You can't lie about Jesus and claim God.

Please stop discouraging those children who believe in Him and HIS WORD, who are "Striving" to enter the Path Jesus told them to Strive for.

There you go. You think "striving" is actually accomplishing. Is English your primary language. Chose your words accurately and wisely.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Wait, wait, wait.
That Jews at the time of Jesus or any time before that didn't know about the doctrine of the Trinity is a historical FACT.
A fact recognized by Jews, Christians and non-religious scholars alike.
If you don't know this, review your sources.

Pot.... meet Kettle. You really don't have any right either morally or ethical to tell someone to check their references. You've been so wrong it is impossible to take you seriously.

Yet, all you do is..... ignore it and act like it didn't happen at all.

 

[synergy]

Wait, wait, wait.
That Jews at the time of Jesus or any time before that didn't know about the doctrine of the Trinity is a historical FACT.
A fact recognized by Jews, Christians and non-religious scholars alike.
If you don't know this, review your sources.

They most certainly did know or should have known about all of the Word of God and of the Son of Man appearances - not to mention the multiple appearances of the Deity called the Angel of the Lord who claimed to be God, but could not be the Father because nobody can see the Father except Christ. Those multiple appearances meant that the Pharisees had no excuse for any ignorance on their part. They might not have an understanding of the Trinity but the facts I mentioned above annihilate any notion of unitarianism being true.

As time went on, the Pharisees put those facts aside and experienced Unitarian sclerosis of the mind. This came to a head when Jesus declared himself the "I Am" OT God. Full blown Pharisaic Unitarianism is what the Pharisees manifested when they tried to stone Jesus. Today's Unitarians are a modern day spin off of that heresy.

 

[TomL]

Which proves my point. Jesus can also be honored as the Son just as they honor the Father. So stop saying Jesus can't be honored too or that it's a sin if he accepts it.

Again you misread

I never stated Jesus cannot be honored

I did state if Jesus accepted worship and if he was not God he sinned

Apostles refused worship

Angels refuse worship

The bible states

Luke 4:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Exodus 34:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

 

[TomL]

You're right, Peterlag.

Actually he is not

I never stated

"Jesus can't be honored too"

seeing the way he misreads me, I am not surprised he misreads scripture

In the passage our brother @TomL has quoted indicates, Jesus is presenting Himself as Ambassador of the Father. So we should treat Jesus the way we would treat He who sent Him to the world.

Which should mean we worship the son as we worship the Father

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

They most certainly did know or should have known about all of the Word of God and of the Son of Man appearances - not to mention the multiple appearances of the Deity called the Angel of the Lord who claimed to be God, but could not be the Father because nobody can see the Father except Christ.

"Most certainly"??


Regardless of whether the common Jew thought that

• A. YHWH had made Himself visible to Gideon or Manoah, taking the shape of a body
• B. YHWH had used a Messenger to convey His Message
• C. YWHW had been seen "symbolically"
• D. There was no way to know what really happened
• E. It was no important to know what really happened.

the result is the same: They believed in One Personal God, that they called Adonai and wrote YHWH.

That's why the teachers of the Law and Jesus agreed on the Oneness of God.
Please read the inspired text below.
Do you see any attempt by Jesus to correct the scribe regarding the Trinity... or to add something to what the Torah already taught? Do you see any disagreement between the teacher of the Law and Jesus?

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”​

​

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: YHVH our God, YHVH is one. Love YHVH your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”​

​

“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”​

​

When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions. (Mark 12:28-34)​

Those multiple appearances meant that the Pharisees had no excuse for any ignorance on their part.

Did Jesus reproached them for not believing that the Angel of YHWH was actually Him, in a pre-incarnate state?
Jesus reproached the Pharisees for several things... and he did it very emphatically.
Being hypocrites, seeking popularity, loading people with small irrelevant commandments, boasting about being children of Abraham but not practicing his righteousness, etc.... but being wrong about the identity of the Angel of YHWH???

Please reflect on that. Most importantly, don't pass moral judgement to me or to any member of this Forum.
Don't do it, please. I beg you.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Pot.... meet Kettle. You really don't have any right either morally or ethical to tell someone to check their references.

Of course I have that right.
Furthermore, I have the moral duty to tell you to check your references, when I am convinced you will learn from doing that.

What I am doing in asking a brother to check his sources is good.
What you are doing, passing moral judgement at almost every single post, is bad. You don't have that right.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You can't see your own sin because you're looking at others.

It is the other way around.
You can't see your own weakness and nakedness because you're looking at other peoples' poverty... and you do it post after post.

The fuel that keeps you in these debates is not the interest in exchanging arguments and learning skills.
I won't tell you what your fuel is, because I don't know. That corresponds to you.

From my side, I will stop making your posts visible to me as soon as I post this comment.
This means I will hover my mouse over your name, and click the button "Ignore".

I pray to God to pour on you and your family all the blessings that His Sovereign Will has for you.
I wish you and your beloved ones health, joy and happiness in his Presence, and I am 100% sure we will meet in heaven, look back at this time, and laugh together.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Which should mean we worship the son as we worship the Father

Please tell us what specific action you have in mind when you say "worship the Son", other than saying "I worship the Son" or a similar statement.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

That Paul's teaching, "But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile" is a false teaching because in your religion, "There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes".

What I advocate for is what God instructs.

Is. 1: 16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Please stop discouraging those children who believe in Him and HIS WORD, who are "Striving" to enter the Path Jesus told them to Strive for.

God bless you always, Studyman.

Some spiritual leaders among Evangelical congregations have placed a horrific emphasis in our intrinsic inability to reach righteousness, but little or no emphasis in God's power to effectively bring us to righteousness in this life.
They seem to ignore that the Bible is FULL of references to righteous human beings.

The idea "You are evil, you deserve nothing..." repeated ad nauseam is a favorite mantra of bad pastors to abuse their flock psychologically (and financially, in many cases). Many evangelicals act in Internet Forums as if the gospel was a bitter experience. There is no joy in their words and actions. No humor. No laughs. Salvation, in their minds, is about adhering to the "right creed" and not about being free and happy.

In Baha'i Scriptures, God indeed expresses his desire for us to be happy and laugh. The Scripture is quoted in this song:

 

[synergy]

"Most certainly"??


Regardless of whether the common Jew thought that

• A. YHWH had made Himself visible to Gideon or Manoah, taking the shape of a body
• B. YHWH had used a Messenger to convey His Message
• C. YWHW had been seen "symbolically"
• D. There was no way to know what really happened
• E. It was no important to know what really happened.

the result is the same: They believed in One Personal God, that they called Adonai and wrote YHWH.

The Pharisees' Unitarian beliefs instructed the Pharisees to stone Jesus.

That's why the teachers of the Law and Jesus agreed on the Oneness of God.

Trinitarians are not polytheists so why are you telling us that?

Please read the inspired text below.
Do you see any attempt by Jesus to correct the scribe regarding the Trinity... or to add something to what the Torah already taught? Do you see any disagreement between the teacher of the Law and Jesus?

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”​

​

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: YHVH our God, YHVH is one. Love YHVH your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”​

​

“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”​

​

When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions. (Mark 12:28-34)​

Did Jesus reproached them for not believing that the Angel of YHWH was actually Him, in a pre-incarnate state?

Different audience. Different expectations.

Jesus reproached the Pharisees for several things... and he did it very emphatically.
Being hypocrites, seeking popularity, loading people with small irrelevant commandments, boasting about being children of Abraham but not practicing his righteousness, etc.... but being wrong about the identity of the Angel of YHWH???

Take that up with Jesus when he condemned the Pharisees for not recognizing him as the Angel of God named "I Am".

(John 8:24) Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins, for if you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins.

Please reflect on that. Most importantly, don't pass moral judgement to me or to any member of this Forum.
Don't do it, please. I beg you.

I don't pass judgment, the Bible does. I'm just the Messenger. Only in Sparta do they eliminate the Messenger.

 

[Runningman]

Because he said so in John 8:58. Do you believe him, yes or no?

If you don't believe Jesus when he declared himself the "I Am" OT God (John 8:58) then no way will you ever believe whatever we say about Jesus.

Jesus didn't say he was God in John 8:58. You're distorting what he said. Furthermore that is contradicted by the fact Jesus claimed to not be God. Jesus' closest followers didn't believe what you believe. For example, in Acts 3:13, Peter described Jesus as the servant of the God of Abraham, not the God of Abraham. While on the other hand, Exodus 3:14,15 states that God of Abraham is the I AM. Not "God of Abraham" title means no God title.

 

[Runningman]

You judge Jesus Christ by yourself. Once again, here is the proof. I do not judge Jesus Christ by myself. You are not wise.....

You're describing yourself.

2Co 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

Glad you asked. Jesus is BETTER than you. Equal with the Father. He is altogether lovely. Perfect. Devoid of spot or blemish. Eternal. Without beginning or ending of days. Not created. Begotten. If you knew the Scriptures, you would know this. I encourage you to get to know the Scriptures.

Jesus is never described as being equal with the Father or eternal in Scripture.

You're not a God. I'm not a God. Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN of God. You were born of lesser stock. This is why Unitarians avoid discussions of the Hypostatic Union. The teaching makes clear that Jesus is MORE than just the seed of Mary.

Open a hypostatic union thread. Let's lay that one to rest as well.

You're horribly inept when it comes to knowing Jesus Christ.

You don't know Jesus. You have a man god and the Scripture rejects that.

 

[Runningman]

yes it began with Arius.

In Judaism and the various teachings God gave the prophets.

 

[TomL]

Please tell us what specific action you have in mind when you say "worship the Son", other than saying "I worship the Son" or a similar statement.

Everything offered in worship to the Father

Including prayer, praise, adoration, religious service.

 

[synergy]

Jesus didn't say he was God in John 8:58. You're distorting what he said. Furthermore that is contradicted by the fact Jesus claimed to not be God. Jesus' closest followers didn't believe what you believe. For example, in Acts 3:13, Peter described Jesus as the servant of the God of Abraham, not the God of Abraham. While on the other hand, Exodus 3:14,15 states that God of Abraham is the I AM. Not "God of Abraham" title means no God title.

Your denial of Jesus explicitly saying that he is the "I Am" OT God has been noted.

You have again failed miserably to forward even one Bible verse of Jesus explicitly denying he is God.

 

[Runningman]

It does not say Jesus sinned. You make up a lot of stuff. You add words to Scripture. You leave out stuff that's there. I think @Runningman is even more correct than I thought he was before. You have just made up your mind and you look for Bible to support your belief.

Thank you sir, I appreciate it. I have made a lot of efforts to really fine tune what I say to make sure no stone has been left unturned and I thank people like you and those who have debated with me to help me sort through all of the Scripture. Of course, keeping an open mind and heart to the Spirit has been the most helpful. At the end of the day, we need to lean on what God has already said.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Everything offered in worship to the Father

Including prayer, praise, adoration, religious service.

I understand what you mean by prayer and praise.
I don't understand what you mean by "adoration" and "religious service".

In regard to prayer, we already discussed that the vast majority of Christians do not pray to Jesus. That doesn't mean they don't worship Him.
In regard to praise, I guess you mean speaking and singing beautiful things about Christ, thanking Him for what He did, for his Love to us, etc.

So, if a Unitarian Christian sings a song praising Jesus, would that be for you evidence that they worship Jesus?

 

[Runningman]

Your denial of Jesus explicitly saying that he is the "I Am" OT God has been noted.

You have again failed miserably to forward even one Bible verse of Jesus explicitly denying he is God.

He didn't say "I am the I am" so that isn't an explicit declaration of claiming to be God. Where did Jesus say "I am God" like God does? No where? Then you will only always be begging the question without any explicit statements. Understand why Trinitarianism doesn't make any sense? Not even Jesus would say he's God.

In fact, he considered the charge of such a thing as being an accusation. Pray tell. Why would God say being called God is an accusation of wrongdoing?

John 10 (NIV)
36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?