The Unitarian belief that Jesus is not God causes those who offer worship to the Father's Throne (where Jesus sits) to be guilty of idolatry.

[Pancho Frijoles]

What I'm trying to say is that I could easily just fixate on John 8:58 and give you no wiggle room and call it a day. But I'm giving you a chance to prove me wrong. If you don't want to take that offer, that's fine. Jesus is God.

Well, I could say the same thing about John 20:17, couldn't I?
I could fixate on that and give you no wiggle room and call it a day. I could say "I'm giving you a change to prove me wrong. If you don't want to take that offer, that's fine. The God of Jesus is The Father".

The problem for you is that John 20:17 is far more explicit than John 8:58.
In John 20:17 Jesus explicitly says who is his God. "His"... and "God". Who he worships.

Jesus said to her, “Stop holding on to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But go to My brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ 

 

[praise_yeshua]

This time I didn't get you.
For a hypothetical believer in Enoch's deity, Enoch would not be just a man, in the same way that for a believer in Jesus' deity, Jesus is not just a man.

I only recognize Jesus as the "Godman". Enoch didn't die and arise from the grave. Does you copy of Enoch say that Enoch did?

Enoch isn't God because he went somewhere out of this world. Neither is Jesus. JESUS CAME FROM ABOVE.... Enoch didn't come from above....

Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Then why go with your Baha'i "unknownable God" as you call him?

Because of Bahá'u'lláh.
As a Manifestation of God, He makes the Unknowable God become close to me.

 

[synergy]

This time I didn't get you.
For a hypothetical believer in Enoch's deity, Enoch would not be just a man, in the same way that for a believer in Jesus' deity, Jesus is not just a man.

Let me restart from the beginning.
Did Enoch ever call himself "God" or did God ever call Enoch "God"? If not then that is not a good example.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Well, I could say the same thing about John 20:17, couldn't I?
I could fixate on that and give you no wiggle room and call it a day. I could say "I'm giving you a change to prove me wrong. If you don't want to take that offer, that's fine. The God of Jesus is The Father".

The problem for you is that John 20:17 is far more explicit than John 8:58.
In John 20:17 Jesus explicitly says who is his God. "His"... and "God". Who he worships.

Jesus said to her, “Stop holding on to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But go to My brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ 

So there ARE actually explicit references..... You can't make this up.......

Talk about self serving rhetoric.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Because of Bahá'u'lláh.
As a Manifestation of God, He makes the Unknowable God become close to me.

Yeah... You've found your superior witness over Jesus. Jesus couldn't bring you to God....

Just more evidence of how Unitarians don't actually exalt Jesus. Is Bahá'u'lláh your foundation?

 

[synergy]

Because of Bahá'u'lláh.
As a Manifestation of God, He makes the Unknowable God become close to me.

Do you pray to Bahá'u'lláh?
You can pray to Jesus as he is God.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I only recognize Jesus as the "Godman". Enoch didn't die and arise from the grave. Does you copy of Enoch say that Enoch did?

And so what?
You are demanding a criteria (resurrection) that the hypothetical believer in Enoch's deity would not accept.
On the contrary, such hypothetical believer would rebuke: "Enoch didn't even have to die. That proves He was God because God cannot die."

Enoch isn't God because he went somewhere out of this world. Neither is Jesus. JESUS CAME FROM ABOVE.... Enoch didn't come from above....

How could you prove that Jesus came from above and Enoch didn't?
It would be just a matter of faith.

The hypothetical believer in Enoch's deity could tell you that the proof that he came from above is that he could not get corrupted and die.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Do you pray to Bahá'u'lláh?
You can pray to Jesus as he is God.

Bahá'u'lláh revealed prayers for us to use.
Jesus did the same in the prayer we all know.

So I follow the model Bahá'u'lláh left to be followed, just as you follow the model Jesus left to be followed.

Most Christians, by the way, do not pray to Jesus. So, believing in Jesus deity has nothing to do with the Person you pray to.
You can be sure the millions of Trinitarian Christians throughout history have never prayed to Jesus, but to His Father.

 

[synergy]

Well, I could say the same thing about John 20:17, couldn't I?
I could fixate on that and give you no wiggle room and call it a day. I could say "I'm giving you a change to prove me wrong. If you don't want to take that offer, that's fine. The God of Jesus is The Father".

The problem for you is that John 20:17 is far more explicit than John 8:58.
In John 20:17 Jesus explicitly says who is his God. "His"... and "God". Who he worships.

Jesus said to her, “Stop holding on to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But go to My brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ 

John 20:17 perfectly aligns with Trinitarianism because Jesus is referring to the Father who is God. That does not support Unitarianism at all.

You still do not have an explicit statement saying that Jesus is not God. If that's all you have then you're on very shaky grounds.

 

[praise_yeshua]

And so what?
You are demanding a criteria (resurrection) that the hypothetical believer in Enoch's deity would not accept.
On the contrary, such hypothetical believer would rebuke: "Enoch didn't even have to die. That proves He was God because God cannot die."

Enoch is gone. Gods are alive. Simple equation. Baháʼu'lláh is dead.

Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

You really don't understand the doctrine of the Atonement found in the everlasting life of Jesus Christ.

How could you prove that Jesus came from above and Enoch didn't?
It would be just a matter of faith.

The hypothetical believer in Enoch's deity could tell you that the proof that he came from above is that he could not get corrupted and die.

Have you heard from Enoch lately?

I believe what Jesus said. You don't. You have no faith in Jesus at all.

Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

You're a Baháʼu'lláhian.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Bahá'u'lláh revealed prayers for us to use.
Jesus did the same in the prayer we all know.

So I follow the model Bahá'u'lláh left to be followed, just as you follow the model Jesus left to be followed.

Most Christians, by the way, do not pray to Jesus. So, believing in Jesus deity has nothing to do with the Person you pray to.
You can be sure the millions of Trinitarian Christians throughout history have never prayed to Jesus, but to His Father.

You don't know "most Christians". Seven day Advents are not "most Christians". You're exaggerating your experience. Why the deception?

I certainly pray to Jesus. He answers me. He promised to answer me.

 

[synergy]

Bahá'u'lláh revealed prayers for us to use.
Jesus did the same in the prayer we all know.

So I follow the model Bahá'u'lláh left to be followed, just as you follow the model Jesus left to be followed.

Most Christians, by the way, do not pray to Jesus. So, believing in Jesus deity has nothing to do with the Person you pray to.
You can be sure the millions of Trinitarian Christians throughout history have never prayed to Jesus, but to His Father.

The difference is that we pray to Jesus. Think about it.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Is Bahá'u'lláh your foundation?

Yes. Bahá'u'lláh is my foundation.
I'm not a Christian Unitarian.
The vast majority of Baha'is don't even know the word "Unitarian" and have no interest in a debate on the Trinity
My interest is on the understanding of people who believe and do not believe in the Trinity.

My battle is not for theological truth, but for spiritual truth. Without love and unity, doctrinal orthodoxy is for the most part, irrelevant.

 

[synergy]

Yes. Bahá'u'lláh is my foundation.
I'm not a Christian Unitarian.
The vast majority of Baha'is don't even know the word "Unitarian" and have no interest in a debate on the Trinity
My interest is on the understanding of people who believe and do not believe in the Trinity.

My battle is not for theological truth, but for spiritual truth. Without love and unity, doctrinal orthodoxy is for the most part, irrelevant.

Only one Mediator between man and God and that isn't Bahá'u'lláh nor Muhammad.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The difference is that we pray to Jesus. Think about it.

Some of you pray to Jesus.
Think about it. Ask yourself: why the vast majority of my Trinitarian brothers and sisters do not do it?

On the other hand, some Baha'is pray to Bahá'u'lláh as well, from the intimacy of their hearts.
However, the prayers He revealed address God. The prayer itself is a vehicle of intercession. It is like addressing God in the name of Bahá'u'lláh.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Only one Mediator between man and God and that isn't Bahá'u'lláh nor Muhammad.

I understand and fully respect that belief, because it is revealed that way in the Scriptures that you know and treasure.
I have a different viewpoint.

 

[TomL]

Because of Bahá'u'lláh.
As a Manifestation of God, He makes the Unknowable God become close to me.

Sound like a substitute for Christ

John 1:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

A false substitute

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes. Bahá'u'lláh is my foundation.
I'm not a Christian Unitarian.
The vast majority of Baha'is don't even know the word "Unitarian" and have no interest in a debate on the Trinity
My interest is on the understanding of people who believe and do not believe in the Trinity.

My battle is not for theological truth, but for spiritual truth. Without love and unity, doctrinal orthodoxy is for the most part, irrelevant.

If you really believe this, you shouldn't give others the impression that reason will change your mind.

Believe as you will. That is what the Gospel/Truth does. It separates. I know you probably don't want this but I'm sincerely concerned for you. I pray living will change your mind.........

 

[synergy]

Some of you pray to Jesus.
Think about it. Ask yourself: why the vast majority of my Trinitarian brothers and sisters do not do it?

On the other hand, some Baha'is pray to Bahá'u'lláh as well, from the intimacy of their hearts.
However, the prayers He revealed address God. The prayer itself is a vehicle of intercession. It is like addressing God in the name of Bahá'u'lláh.

All of Heaven prays and worships those who are sitting in the Father's Throne (the Father and the Son). I'll follow their example.