The Unitarian belief that Jesus is not God causes those who offer worship to the Father's Throne (where Jesus sits) to be guilty of idolatry.

[Pancho Frijoles]

What AI application did you run to generate that image?

Microsoft Bing. It's a lot of fun!... although sometimes these glitches get on the way.

 

[synergy]

Microsoft Bing. It's a lot of fun!... although sometimes these glitches get on the way.

How do you prompt it? Do you ask it to create an image and then you describe the image it should create?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Dear readers:

In Scripture throne does not refer to benches or loveseats.
The analogy of a throne used in the Bible is that of a chair for a single person, because that is how thrones were used.
Archeology supports this concept. In Internet you can find hundreds of images of thrones in ancient Egypt, Persia, Babylon, Greece and Rome.
For example, this one, of the first century in Rome, when the NT was being written.
The "bench" argument and the "loveseat" argument are unsupported. They have been refuted.

View attachment 1004

Which is it. Are thrones shared or are they not? Commit to something. Doubleminded men like yourself never go anywhere. I don't see a single appeal to Scripture.

There are many cultures that share authority. Appealing to the Roman culture as evidence is rather silly. Rome had a senate. They all shared authority until one wanted to "RULE THEM ALL".......

Tolkien's imagery is lost on you. That is what evil does. It seeks to RULE.

Real and perfect love is a relationship of the willing.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You certainly are adapting with this "work in progress" defense you're building. Make a "rank" argument. I'm waiting for it.

I encourage you to read my very first 3 posts in this thread.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I encourage you to read my very first 3 posts in this thread.

Like "If we take "throne" (θράω in Greek) as a chair, the answer is one.".....

You failed from the start.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

How do you prompt it? Do you ask it to create an image and then you describe the image it should create?

That's right.
The more descriptive, the more likely for the AI to give you what you need. You can try several times hitting on "Create" to get several variations.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Like "If we take "throne" (θράω in Greek) as a chair, the answer is one.".....

You failed from the start.

No, I didn't.
That's the way Bible and archeology usually manages thrones. That's why more than 90% of the time the Bible uses "throne" in that sense.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That's right.
The more descriptive, the more likely for the AI to give you what you need. You can try several times hitting on "Create" to get several variations.

It really isn't "create". It is fabricate.

Only God can create something from nothing. You know.... like Jesus did many times.

 

[praise_yeshua]

No, I didn't.
That's the way Bible and archeology usually manages thrones. That's why more than 90% of the time the Bible uses "throne" in that sense.

You haven't established any evidence from Scripture that "throne" = chair.

In fact, you take the same word to mean "bench" relative to your own authority.

At least be intellectually honest with these facts.

The word "chair" isn't found in the Scriptures. Dig deeper. Quit using crazy "conjecture" as evidence.

 

[TomL]

Show me the exact Greek word that the GWT translators derived the English word "it" from in John 1:14 or John 1:1-3. Failing that, the GWT can take its place alongside the Quran and the NWT.

His is a somewhat deceptive claim as it refers to the glory and not the person

John 1:14 The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness and truth.

And it refers to the glory which was shared between the father and the son

A powerful argument for the deity of the son

Beware of Unitarians quoting scripture

 

[praise_yeshua]

No, I didn't.
That's the way Bible and archeology usually manages thrones. That's why more than 90% of the time the Bible uses "throne" in that sense.

Oh. By the way. "Loveseat" is English. It takes time and effort to back track through various languages to find the origins of words. Even then, sometimes.... we just don't know.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Which is it. Are thrones shared or are they not? Commit to something.

I told you since you asked me for a definition.

Definition 1: A chair. Not shared.
Definition 2: A government. Shared.

Times the Bible uses Definition 1: More than 90% (we haven't seen, for example, that the OT also uses throne in that sense)
Times the Bible uses Definition 2: Less than 10%

Definition in Rev 3:21 that fits the fact that Jesus shares his throne with you: A government.
Definition in Rev 4 vision: A chair. Not shared.

I don't see a single appeal to Scripture.

Then read again, this time without haste or hate, and you will have the appeals to Scripture.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I told you since you asked me for a definition.
Definition 1: A chair. Not shared.
Definition 2: A government. Shared.

Times the Bible uses Definition 1: More than 90% (we haven't seen, for example, that the OT also uses throne in that sense)
Times the Bible uses Definition 2: Less than 10%

Definition in Rev 3:21 that fits the fact that Jesus shares his throne with you: A government.


Then read again, this time without haste or hate, and you will have the appeals to Scripture.

I know how to read. I don't believe English is your primary language either? Your forum handle gives it away.......

Geesh. I'm way ahead of you. At times you insist that is only a chair. At times you insist that it is a bench. You're making arbitrary choices in the 90/10 split you have here.

Self serving.... arbitrary choices. Look these words up in a dictionary.

I've been debating theology for a very long time. You're not skilled in this area. Your intentions override your skills to relate them.

 

[Peterlag]

When jesus became God


He is Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, “Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness.” Barnabas (c. 70–130, E), 1.139.

Let us reverence the Lord Jesus Christ, whose blood was given for us. Clement of Rome (c. 96, W), 1.11.

God Himself was manifested in human form for the renewal of eternal life. Ignatius (c. 105, E), 1.58.

Continue in intimate union with Jesus Christ, our God. Ignatius (c. 105, E), 1.68.

I pray for your happiness forever in our God, Jesus Christ. Ignatius (c. 105, E), 1.96.

The Christians trace the beginning of their religion to Jesus the Messiah. He is called the Son of the Most High God. It is said that God came down from heaven. He assumed flesh and clothed Himself with it from a Hebrew virgin. And the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. Aristides (c. 125, E), 9.265.

Truly God Himself, who is Almighty, the Creator of all things, and invisible, has sent from heaven, and placed among men, the One who is the truth, and the holy and incomprehensible Word.… God did not, as one might have imagined, send to men any servant, angel, or ruler.… Rather, He sent the very Creator and Fashioner of all things—by whom He made the heavens.… As a king sends his son, who is also a king, so God sent Him. He sent Him as God. Letter to Diognetus (c. 125–200), 1.27.

Brethren, it is fitting that you should think of Jesus Christ as of God—as the Judge of the living and the dead. Second Clement (c. 150), 7.517.

We reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.166.

The Word, … He is Divine. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.166.

The Father of the universe has a Son. And He, being the First-Begotten Word of God, is even God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.184.

Next to God, we worship and love the Word who is from the unbeggoten and ineffable God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.193.

For Christ is King, Priest, God, Lord, Angel, and Man. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.211.

[TRYPHO, A JEW:] You utter many blasphemies, in that you seek to persuade us that this crucified man was with Moses and Aaron, and spoke to them in the pillar of the cloud. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.213.

Moses … declares that He who appeared to Abraham under the oak in Mamre is God. He was sent with the two angels in His company to judge Sodom by another One, who remains ever in the supercelestial places, invisible to all men, holding personal contact with no one. We believe this other One to be the Maker and Father of all things.… Yet, there is said to be another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things. And He is also called an Angel, because he announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things—above whom there is no other God—wishes to announce to them. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.223.

He deserves to be worshipped as God and as Christ. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.229.

David predicted that He would be born from the womb before the sun and moon, according to the Father’s will. He made Him known, being Christ, as God, strong and to be worshipped. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.237.

The Son ministered to the will of the Father. Yet, nevertheless, He is God, in that He is the First-Begotten of all creatures. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.262.

If you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the Only, Unbegotten, Unutterable God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.263.

“Rejoice, O you heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship Him” [Deut. 32:43]. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.264.

He is forever the first in power. For Christ, being the First-Born of every creature, became again the chief of another race regenerated by Himself through water, faith, and wood. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.268.

Then did the whole creation see clearly that for man’s sake the Judge was condemned, and the Invisible was seen, and the Illimitable was circumscribed, and the Impassible suffered, and the Immortal died, and the Celestial was laid in the grave. Melito (c. 170, E), 8.756.

God was put to death, the King of Israel slain! Melito (c. 170, E), 8.758.

There is the one God and the Logos proceeding from Him, the Son. We understand that the Son is inseparable from Him. Athenagoras (c. 175, E), 2.137.

God by His own Word and Wisdom made all things. Theophilus (c. 180, E), 2.91.

“Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; the scepter of Your kingdom is a right scepter. You have loved righteousness and hated iniquity. Therefore, God, Your God, has anointed You.” For the Spirit designates by the name of God—both Him who is anointed as Son, and He who anoints, that is, the Father. And again, “God stood in the congregation of the gods; He judges among the gods.” Here he refers to the Father and the Son, and those who have received the adoption. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.419.

For He fulfills the bountiful and comprehensive will of His Father, inasmuch as He is Himself the Savior of those who are saved, and the Lord of those who are under authority, and the God of all those things that have been formed, the Only-Begotten of the Father. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.443.

I have shown from the Scriptures that none of the sons of Adam are, absolutely and as to everything, called God, or named Lord. But Jesus is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, Lord, King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word.… He is the Holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.449.

Thus He indicates in clear terms that He is God, and that His advent was in Bethlehem.… God, then, was made man, and the Lord did Himself save us. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.451.

He is God, for the name Emmanuel indicates this. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.452.

Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spoke to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.467.

Now the father of the human race is the Word of God. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.505.

How can they be saved unless it was God who worked out their salvation upon earth? Or how shall man pass into God, unless God has first passed into man? Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.507.

It is plain that He was Himself the Word of God, who was made the son of man. He received from the Father the power of remission of sins. He was man, and He was God. This was so that since as man He suffered for us, so as God He might have compassion on us. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.545.

He is God in the form of man, stainless, the minister of His Father’s will, the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Father’s right hand. And with the form of God, He is God. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.210.

There is a suggestion of the divinity of the Lord in [Isaac’s] not being slain. Jesus rose again after His burial, having suffered no harm—just like Isaac was released from being sacrificed. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.215.

O the great God! O the perfect child! The Son in the Father and the Father in the Son.… God the Word, who became man for our sakes. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.215.

The Father of all is alone perfect, for the Son is in Him and the Father is in the Son. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.222.

Our Instructor is the holy God Jesus, the Word. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.223.

Nothing, then, is hated by God, nor yet by the Word. For both are one—that is, God. For He has said, “In the beginning the Word was in God, and the Word was God.” Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.225.

He who has the Almighty God, the Word, is in want of nothing. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.281.

Pointing to the First-Begotten Son, Peter writes, accurately comprehending the statement, “In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth.” And He is called Wisdom by all the prophets. This is He who is the Teacher of all created beings. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.493.


David W. Bercot, ed., “Christ, Divinity Of,” A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 1998), 93–95.

You have about 40 statements here. Am I suppose to respond to all 40 so you don't say I'm dodging?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You haven't established any evidence from Scripture that "throne" = chair.

You haven't established any evidence from Scripture that "throne" is a bench or loveseat.
I'm not the one pressed to prove my point that, "throne" generally referred to a chair for a single person.
You are the one that should offer proof that a term is not used in the way it is overwhelmingly used.

Any Dictionary of Hebrew and Greek, and any quick search on Google will answer your question.
Below, a throne in ancient Egypt.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You haven't established any evidence from Scripture that "throne" is a bench or loveseat.
Any Dictionary of Hebrew and Greek, and any quick search on Google will answer your question.
Below, a throne in ancient Egypt.

View attachment 1005

Geesh. Give it up. You believe "throne" = bench 10 percent of the time. Stop this nonsense.....

I don't care what Egypt declares is a throne. You shouldn't either. I corrected you on Rome and you move to Eqypt.....

Did the people of God come out of Egypt or not????

Geesh......

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Geesh. Give it up. You believe "throne" = bench 10 percent of the time. Stop this nonsense.....

I didn't say "bench", but "government".
You say you can read. I know you can, once you decide to do it without haste and without hate.
Calm down and read. Calm down and think. Calm down and reply.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You haven't established any evidence from Scripture that "throne" is a bench or loveseat.
I'm not the one pressed to prove my point that, "throne" generally referred to a chair for a single person.
You are the one that should offer proof that a term is not used in the way it is overwhelmingly used.

Any Dictionary of Hebrew and Greek, and any quick search on Google will answer your question.
Below, a throne in ancient Egypt.

View attachment 1005

BTW. I don't want nor need Google. I have a sign my kids gave me.... "I don't need Google. My dad knows everything"......

It is an exaggeration but I have found it necessary in my life to know as much as possible about these subjects. I haven't done my best but I haven't abandoned my duty either.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I didn't say "bench", but "government".
You say you can read. I know you can, once you decide to do it without haste and without hate.
Calm down and read. Calm down and think. Calm down and reply.

There is no meaningful difference in how you apply them. Throne 90 percent. Throne government 10 percent.

Yes. "Bench" is my word. Never said otherwise.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

There are many cultures that share authority. Appealing to the Roman culture as evidence is rather silly. Rome had a senate.

It is not silly as, regardless of Senate, Rome had thrones and thrones were chairs for one people to sit.