The Unitarian belief that Jesus is not God causes those who offer worship to the Father's Throne (where Jesus sits) to be guilty of idolatry.

Once again. You display your ignorance.

1. You reference Ehrman and post a link someone else's book.

2. Ehrman is an Atheist.


3. Ehrman is not a historian. He has an agenda.

Anyone that doesn't know Ehrman is utterly lost in Apologetics of the last three decades.

You're denying God with Ehrman's works.
Attacking again aren't we? It's not ignorance. It was just an honest human mistake. Here's the book I meant to post...

The life of Jesus, and the subsequent persecution of Christians during the Roman Empire, have come to define what many of us know about early Christianity. The fervent debate, civil strife, and bloody riots as Christianity was coming into being, however, is a side of ancient history rarely described.

Richard E. Rubenstein takes the reader to the streets of fourth-century Rome, when a fateful debate over the divinity of Jesus Christ is being fought. Ruled by a Christian emperor, followers of Jesus no longer fear for the survival of their monotheistic faith. But soon they break into two camps regarding the direction of their worship: Is Jesus the son of God and therefore not the same as God? Or is Jesus precisely God on Earth and therefore equal to Him?



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Which is why the Word of Life is calling a thing in 1 John 1:1-3. Eternal life isn't a god.
This is perfect example showing you do not know how to exegete scripture

1 John 1:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 THAT which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

The apostles heard and handled and they declared him

Were they declaring an impersonal thing or were they declaring Jesus Christ

Read the gospels

No one not hopelessly biased against the truth could deny they preached Christ a livihg being not an impersonal thing

Note also this passage shows continuity from the word of Life to Jesus Christ just like john chapter 1, another passage you mishandle
 
Attacking again aren't we? It's not ignorance. It was just an honest human mistake. Here's the book I meant to post...

The life of Jesus, and the subsequent persecution of Christians during the Roman Empire, have come to define what many of us know about early Christianity. The fervent debate, civil strife, and bloody riots as Christianity was coming into being, however, is a side of ancient history rarely described.

Richard E. Rubenstein takes the reader to the streets of fourth-century Rome, when a fateful debate over the divinity of Jesus Christ is being fought. Ruled by a Christian emperor, followers of Jesus no longer fear for the survival of their monotheistic faith. But soon they break into two camps regarding the direction of their worship: Is Jesus the son of God and therefore not the same as God? Or is Jesus precisely God on Earth and therefore equal to Him?



View attachment 991
Seriously?


He is Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, “Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness.” Barnabas (c. 70–130, E), 1.139.

Let us reverence the Lord Jesus Christ, whose blood was given for us. Clement of Rome (c. 96, W), 1.11.

God Himself was manifested in human form for the renewal of eternal life. Ignatius (c. 105, E), 1.58.

Continue in intimate union with Jesus Christ, our God. Ignatius (c. 105, E), 1.68.

I pray for your happiness forever in our God, Jesus Christ. Ignatius (c. 105, E), 1.96.

The Christians trace the beginning of their religion to Jesus the Messiah. He is called the Son of the Most High God. It is said that God came down from heaven. He assumed flesh and clothed Himself with it from a Hebrew virgin. And the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. Aristides (c. 125, E), 9.265.

Truly God Himself, who is Almighty, the Creator of all things, and invisible, has sent from heaven, and placed among men, the One who is the truth, and the holy and incomprehensible Word.… God did not, as one might have imagined, send to men any servant, angel, or ruler.… Rather, He sent the very Creator and Fashioner of all things—by whom He made the heavens.… As a king sends his son, who is also a king, so God sent Him. He sent Him as God. Letter to Diognetus (c. 125–200), 1.27.

Brethren, it is fitting that you should think of Jesus Christ as of God—as the Judge of the living and the dead. Second Clement (c. 150), 7.517.

We reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.166.

The Word, … He is Divine. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.166.

The Father of the universe has a Son. And He, being the First-Begotten Word of God, is even God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.184.

Next to God, we worship and love the Word who is from the unbeggoten and ineffable God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.193.

For Christ is King, Priest, God, Lord, Angel, and Man. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.211.

[TRYPHO, A JEW:] You utter many blasphemies, in that you seek to persuade us that this crucified man was with Moses and Aaron, and spoke to them in the pillar of the cloud. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.213.

Moses … declares that He who appeared to Abraham under the oak in Mamre is God. He was sent with the two angels in His company to judge Sodom by another One, who remains ever in the supercelestial places, invisible to all men, holding personal contact with no one. We believe this other One to be the Maker and Father of all things.… Yet, there is said to be another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things. And He is also called an Angel, because he announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things—above whom there is no other God—wishes to announce to them. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.223.

He deserves to be worshipped as God and as Christ. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.229.

David predicted that He would be born from the womb before the sun and moon, according to the Father’s will. He made Him known, being Christ, as God, strong and to be worshipped. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.237.

The Son ministered to the will of the Father. Yet, nevertheless, He is God, in that He is the First-Begotten of all creatures. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.262.

If you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the Only, Unbegotten, Unutterable God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.263.

“Rejoice, O you heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship Him” [Deut. 32:43]. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.264.

He is forever the first in power. For Christ, being the First-Born of every creature, became again the chief of another race regenerated by Himself through water, faith, and wood. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.268.

Then did the whole creation see clearly that for man’s sake the Judge was condemned, and the Invisible was seen, and the Illimitable was circumscribed, and the Impassible suffered, and the Immortal died, and the Celestial was laid in the grave. Melito (c. 170, E), 8.756.

God was put to death, the King of Israel slain! Melito (c. 170, E), 8.758.

There is the one God and the Logos proceeding from Him, the Son. We understand that the Son is inseparable from Him. Athenagoras (c. 175, E), 2.137.

God by His own Word and Wisdom made all things. Theophilus (c. 180, E), 2.91.

“Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; the scepter of Your kingdom is a right scepter. You have loved righteousness and hated iniquity. Therefore, God, Your God, has anointed You.” For the Spirit designates by the name of God—both Him who is anointed as Son, and He who anoints, that is, the Father. And again, “God stood in the congregation of the gods; He judges among the gods.” Here he refers to the Father and the Son, and those who have received the adoption. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.419.

For He fulfills the bountiful and comprehensive will of His Father, inasmuch as He is Himself the Savior of those who are saved, and the Lord of those who are under authority, and the God of all those things that have been formed, the Only-Begotten of the Father. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.443.

I have shown from the Scriptures that none of the sons of Adam are, absolutely and as to everything, called God, or named Lord. But Jesus is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, Lord, King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word.… He is the Holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.449.

Thus He indicates in clear terms that He is God, and that His advent was in Bethlehem.… God, then, was made man, and the Lord did Himself save us. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.451.

He is God, for the name Emmanuel indicates this. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.452.

Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spoke to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.467.

Now the father of the human race is the Word of God. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.505.

How can they be saved unless it was God who worked out their salvation upon earth? Or how shall man pass into God, unless God has first passed into man? Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.507.

It is plain that He was Himself the Word of God, who was made the son of man. He received from the Father the power of remission of sins. He was man, and He was God. This was so that since as man He suffered for us, so as God He might have compassion on us. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.545.

He is God in the form of man, stainless, the minister of His Father’s will, the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Father’s right hand. And with the form of God, He is God. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.210.

There is a suggestion of the divinity of the Lord in [Isaac’s] not being slain. Jesus rose again after His burial, having suffered no harm—just like Isaac was released from being sacrificed. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.215.

O the great God! O the perfect child! The Son in the Father and the Father in the Son.… God the Word, who became man for our sakes. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.215.

The Father of all is alone perfect, for the Son is in Him and the Father is in the Son. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.222.

Our Instructor is the holy God Jesus, the Word. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.223.

Nothing, then, is hated by God, nor yet by the Word. For both are one—that is, God. For He has said, “In the beginning the Word was in God, and the Word was God.” Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.225.

He who has the Almighty God, the Word, is in want of nothing. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.281.

Pointing to the First-Begotten Son, Peter writes, accurately comprehending the statement, “In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth.” And He is called Wisdom by all the prophets. This is He who is the Teacher of all created beings. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.493.


David W. Bercot, ed., “Christ, Divinity Of,” A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 1998), 93–95.
 
That's my argument. John 1 is personification which would involve personal pronouns. That has been my argument across many threads. I have not run away from that and I am glad you keep bringing it up. You are running away from 1 John 1:1-3 which DOES NOT use personal pronouns regarding the Word. Understanding the argument now?
Personal OT Appearances of the Word PLUS Personal Pronouns PLUS the Word taking on concrete Humanity = A Concrete Person called the Word. Do you understand the argument now?

We already told you how 1John 1:1-3 is perfectly Trinitarian. Keep bringing those Trinitarian verses forward!
 
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And I have Jesus calling the Father the ONLY true God. Wow, that blows your "Jesus is God" theory away. Since the Father is the ONLY true God then Jesus isn't the true God.

So what do I have.

I have YHWH stating he is the only God.
I have a number of prophets saying YHWH is the only God.
I have Jesus, John, Paul referring to the Father as the one and only God.
I have denials by Jesus himself that he isn't God.

You aren't understanding the context and nuances of the verses you're speaking of.

You've been overruled by Scripture.
And Jesus is called the Only Lord, Only Sovereign, the One Lord a person must confess to be saved.

there goes unitarianism down the drain call roto rooter :)
 
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That's my argument. John 1 is personification which would involve personal pronouns. That has been my argument across many threads. I have not run away from that and I am glad you keep bringing it up. You are running away from 1 John 1:1-3 which DOES NOT use personal pronouns regarding the Word. Understanding the argument now?
Except you ran to arguments showing the word was a god or godly so your claim is bogus and your position inconsistent.

Other than that you fail to follow the context of John 1`which show the word was God was made flesh and revealed as Jesus Christ

You also ignore many verses Jesus states he came down from heaven and that he had glory with God before the world was
 
And Jesus is called the Only Lord, Only Sovereign, the One Lord a person must confess to be saved.

there does unitarianism lol.
And the one lord (heis Kyrios) of 1 Cor 8:6 is Jehovah when we look at

Mark 12:29 (KJV 1900) — 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: (one lord -heis kyrios)

which is the Jewish Greek rendering of the Shema of Israel

Deuteronomy 6:4 (UASV) — 4 “Hear, O Israel! Jehovah our God is one Jehovah!

Jesus is Jehovah
 
Do a word study on "Became" in John 1:14. Nothing about it meaning an incarnation anywhere in the Bible. You will find your answers there.

That doesn't answer the question I asked. Read it again. Pay attention. YOU are the one that said this.

What is the difference between incarnate and became flesh?
 
God is always described as one, never three, in the Bible. That's good for me, bad news for you.

That wasn't your argument. You said the word "Trinity" isn't found. That is what YOU said. You're trying to pretend you didn't say it. You did. It is a rather silly argument that you've made for a very long time in these forums. It is one of your "default" responses when you have no answer.
 
Attacking again aren't we? It's not ignorance. It was just an honest human mistake. Here's the book I meant to post...

The life of Jesus, and the subsequent persecution of Christians during the Roman Empire, have come to define what many of us know about early Christianity. The fervent debate, civil strife, and bloody riots as Christianity was coming into being, however, is a side of ancient history rarely described.

Richard E. Rubenstein takes the reader to the streets of fourth-century Rome, when a fateful debate over the divinity of Jesus Christ is being fought. Ruled by a Christian emperor, followers of Jesus no longer fear for the survival of their monotheistic faith. But soon they break into two camps regarding the direction of their worship: Is Jesus the son of God and therefore not the same as God? Or is Jesus precisely God on Earth and therefore equal to Him?



View attachment 991

Even worse. You referenced Ehrman by name. Am I suppose to believe that you didn't intend Ehrman at all?
 
This is perfect example showing you do not know how to exegete scripture

1 John 1:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 THAT which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

The apostles heard and handled and they declared him

Were they declaring an impersonal thing or were they declaring Jesus Christ

Read the gospels

No one not hopelessly biased against the truth could deny they preached Christ a livihg being not an impersonal thing

Note also this passage shows continuity from the word of Life to Jesus Christ just like john chapter 1, another passage you mishandle
The Word of life is still there in 1 John 1:1-3 being called an it. How do you harmonize that with your doctrine?
 
Personal OT Appearances of the Word PLUS Personal Pronouns PLUS the Word taking on concrete Humanity = A Concrete Person called the Word. Do you understand the argument now?

We already told you how 1John 1:1-3 is perfectly Trinitarian. Keep bringing those Trinitarian verses forward!
No personal OT appearances of the Word. For example, following John 1:1 we should expect there to be a personal being named the Word doing or saying something. There quite plainly is not.
 
And Jesus is called the Only Lord, Only Sovereign, the One Lord a person must confess to be saved.

there does unitarianism lol.
But he isn't ever called YHWH, the I AM, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the Word, immortal, eternal, the invisible God, the only Sovereign One or Pontentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, the LORD of Hosts, etc.

1 Timothy 6
14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
 
No personal OT appearances of the Word. For example, following John 1:1 we should expect there to be a personal being named the Word doing or saying something. There quite plainly is not.
1 Kings 12:22 and 1 Ch 17:3 rebukes your judaizing heretical beliefs. They both clearly show that the Pre-Incarnate Word of God was a Communicative Person who had all the attributes of a Person (Mind, Will, Individuality, etc...)
  • 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
  • 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,
This obviously proves that the Word of God (Jesus), who is Uncreated (John 1:3), cannot possibly be just a thing (a word) or even an angel. He is God.

CHECK. AND. MATE.
 
No personal OT appearances of the Word. For example, following John 1:1 we should expect there to be a personal being named the Word doing or saying something. There quite plainly is not.

Act 19:10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

What is the "Word of the Lord Jesus"?
 
1 Kings 12:22 and 1 Ch 17:3 rebukes your judaizing heretical beliefs. They both clearly show that the Pre-Incarnate Word of God was a Communicative Person who had all the attributes of a Person (Mind, Will, Individuality, etc...)
  • 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
  • 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,
This obviously proves that the Word of God (Jesus), who is Uncreated (John 1:3), cannot possibly be just a thing (a word) or even an angel. He is God.

CHECK. AND. MATE.
The word of God isn't God. It's about the words of God coming to Shemaiah, not because the word is a person, but the message came.

Hence, the "word of God" speaks of the LORD in the third person. That's proof the word of God isn't God. Same thing in 1 Ch 17:3.

1 Kings 12
22But the word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God: 23“Tell Rehoboam son of Solomon king of Judah, all the house of Judah and Benjamin, and the rest of the people 24that this is what the LORD says: ‘You are not to go up and fight against your brothers, the Israelites. Each of you must return home, for this word is from Me.’ ”

Check mate.

Unitarianism 1.... Trinitarianism 0
 
The word of God isn't God. It's about the words of God coming to Shemaiah, not because the word is a person, but the message came.

Hence, the "word of God" speaks of the LORD in the third person. That's proof the word of God isn't God. Same thing in 1 Ch 17:3.

1 Kings 12
22But the word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God: 23“Tell Rehoboam son of Solomon king of Judah, all the house of Judah and Benjamin, and the rest of the people 24that this is what the LORD says: ‘You are not to go up and fight against your brothers, the Israelites. Each of you must return home, for this word is from Me.’ ”

Check mate.

Unitarianism 1.... Trinitarianism 0

What is the "Word of the Lord Jesus"?
 
Act 19:10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

What is the "Word of the Lord Jesus"?
You're going to have to be sharper than that. You already know that the best and earliest manuscripts on this verse don't even mention the name Jesus. Non-point unless you can somehow pull out of thin air how that isn't the case. Be prepared to face an army of Trinitarian scholars who disagree with you.

Here's a sample:

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard, &c.] The oldest authorities omit “Jesus” from this clause. By Asia is meant “proconsular Asia” (see note on Acts 2:10). The seed of the seven churches of the Apocalypse was sown in these two years. It is evident from the tumult described in this chapter that the Christian teaching was making as much way among the Gentiles as among the Jews. The language of St Luke here implies that the audience of St Paul was made up not of the settled inhabitants of Ephesus only, but of those who visited the city for business or pleasure, and carried news of the preacher and his message to all corners of the district. Philemon from Colossæ may have been one of St Paul’s converts during this time.
 
You're going to have to be sharper than that. You already know that the best and earliest manuscripts on this verse don't even mention the name Jesus. Non-point unless you can somehow pull out of thin air how that isn't the case. Be prepared to face an army of Trinitarian scholars who disagree with you.

Here's a sample:

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard, &c.] The oldest authorities omit “Jesus” from this clause. By Asia is meant “proconsular Asia” (see note on Acts 2:10). The seed of the seven churches of the Apocalypse was sown in these two years. It is evident from the tumult described in this chapter that the Christian teaching was making as much way among the Gentiles as among the Jews. The language of St Luke here implies that the audience of St Paul was made up not of the settled inhabitants of Ephesus only, but of those who visited the city for business or pleasure, and carried news of the preacher and his message to all corners of the district. Philemon from Colossæ may have been one of St Paul’s converts during this time.

You don't even know Trinitarianism. Much less an "army" of such.

Give the manuscript distinction...... Go for it.
 
You don't even know Trinitarianism. Much less an "army" of such.

Give the manuscript distinction...... Go for it.
I didn't offer anything else. I simply showed you on good authority how Jesus isn't mentioned in the verse you provided. Rather than focusing so much on debating... you should be alerted to the fact about something important regarding the Bible and you should be scrambling to find out what happened to cause what you thought to be proof to turn out quickly debunked. Go for it.
 
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