The Trinity and the Incarnation

[charismaticlady]

Great, not revealed as God. As you know, Jesus is not God.

If you believe Jesus is not God even though God is His natural father, do you believe He existed before Mary conceived? Or do you believe Jesus is a created being and had a beginning, even though Scripture says He had no beginning or end?

 

[civic]

If you believe Jesus is not God even though God is His natural father, do you believe He existed before Mary conceived? Or do you believe Jesus is a created being and had a beginning, even though Scripture says He had no beginning or end?

Good luck getting a straight answer to your simple questions.

 

[amazing grace]

If you believe Jesus is not God even though God is His natural father, do you believe He existed before Mary conceived? Or do you believe Jesus is a created being and had a beginning, even though Scripture says He had no beginning or end?

Being the Son of God - Jesus is not God -- God is his Father.

No, I don't believe he existed before Mary conceived.

He was created within the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit, the power of the Most High.

Matthew records the genealogy of Jesus - the 'genesis' of Jesus; the 'source' of Jesus. ..... genesis - source, origin; a) a book of one's lineage, i.e. in which his ancestry or progeny are enumerated; 2. used of birth, nativity; 3. of that which follows origin, viz. existence, life; a) the wheel of life (Jas 3:6), other explain it, the wheel of human origin which as soon as men are born begins to run, i.e. its course of life

 

[charismaticlady]

Being the Son of God - Jesus is not God -- God is his Father.

No, I don't believe he existed before Mary conceived.

He was created within the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit, the power of the Most High.

Matthew records the genealogy of Jesus - the 'genesis' of Jesus; the 'source' of Jesus. ..... genesis - source, origin; a) a book of one's lineage, i.e. in which his ancestry or progeny are enumerated; 2. used of birth, nativity; 3. of that which follows origin, viz. existence, life; a) the wheel of life (Jas 3:6), other explain it, the wheel of human origin which as soon as men are born begins to run, i.e. its course of life

John 1 shows Jesus was the Word of God and even the creator. So, yes, He existed before becoming human. But you must be able to believe the words of the Bible. Jesus even acknowledged that He was the I AM of the burning bush, which meant that He was God.

 

[Runningman]

If you believe Jesus is not God even though God is His natural father, do you believe He existed before Mary conceived? Or do you believe Jesus is a created being and had a beginning, even though Scripture says He had no beginning or end?

Scripture explicitly says the Son is begotten doesn't it? Doesn't Revelation 3:14 explicitly state he is the beginning of the creation of God? Are there no examples of Jesus pre-existing? Then I don't make any theological assumptions.

Where did you see anything in the Bible about Jesus having no beginning or end? I would add, Jesus is never referred to as eternal anywhere in the Bible. So I am interested to see where you got this idea from.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Being the Son of God - Jesus is not God -- God is his Father.

No, I don't believe he existed before Mary conceived.

He was created within the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit, the power of the Most High.

What does this mean? Does this mean that the Word was not around before the incarnation? What exactly do you know about the Word?

John 1:14

Jehovah Witnesses New Word Translation
So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.

Septuagint LXX
And the word became flesh, and tented among us, and we saw his glory, glory as an only child of the father, full of favor and truth.

New International Version
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

New Living Translation
So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son.

English Standard Version
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Berean Standard Bible
The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Berean Literal Bible
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

King James Bible
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

New King James Version
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

New American Standard Bible
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

NASB 1995
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

NASB 1977
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Legacy Standard Bible
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Amplified Bible
And the Word (Christ) became flesh, and lived among us; and we [actually] saw His glory, glory as belongs to the [One and] only begotten Son of the Father, [the Son who is truly unique, the only One of His kind, who is] full of grace and truth (absolutely free of deception).

Christian Standard Bible
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. We observed his glory, the glory as the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We observed His glory, the glory as the One and Only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

American Standard Version
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.

Contemporary English Version
The Word became a human being and lived here with us. We saw his true glory, the glory of the only Son of the Father. From him the complete gifts of undeserved grace and truth have come down to us.

English Revised Version
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness and truth.

Good News Translation
The Word became a human being and, full of grace and truth, lived among us. We saw his glory, the glory which he received as the Father's only Son.

International Standard Version
The Word became flesh and lived among us. We gazed on his glory, the kind of glory that belongs to the Father's unique Son, who is full of grace and truth.

NET Bible
Now the Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We saw his glory--the glory of the one and only, full of grace and truth, who came from the Father.

New Heart English Bible
And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we saw his glory, such glory as of the one and only of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Webster's Bible Translation
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Weymouth New Testament
And the Word came in the flesh, and lived for a time in our midst, so that we saw His glory--the glory as of the Father's only Son, sent from His presence. He was full of grace and truth.
Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

World English Bible
The Word became flesh and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the only born Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of [the] only begotten of [the] Father, full of grace and truth.

Berean Literal Bible
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Young's Literal Translation
And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.

Smith's Literal Translation
And the Word was flesh, and dwelt with us, (and we beheld his glory, as the glory of the only born of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Catholic Public Domain Version
And the Word became flesh, and he lived among us, and we saw his glory, glory like that of an only-begotten son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

New American Bible
And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.

New Revised Standard Version
And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth.

Translations from Aramaic
Lamsa Bible
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw his glory, a glory like that of the firstborn of the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Peshitta
And The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of The Only Begotten of The Father, full of grace and truth

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of The Only Begotten of The Father, full of grace and truth.

NT Translations
Anderson New Testament
And the WORD became flesh, and tabernacled among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and of truth.

Godbey New Testament
The Word was made flesh, and tented among us (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten with the Father), full of grace and truth.

Haweis New Testament
And the Word became incarnate, and tabernacled with us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Mace New Testament
The Logos became incarnate, and had his tabernacle among us, being full of grace and truth; and we contemplated his glory, such glory as the Monogenes derived from the father.

Weymouth New Testament
And the Word came in the flesh, and lived for a time in our midst, so that we saw His glory--the glory as of the Father's only Son, sent from His presence. He was full of grace and truth.

Worrell New Testament
And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us, (and we beheld His glory—glory as of the Only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.

Worsley New Testament
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, being full of grace and truth: and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father.

 

[civic]

Being the Son of God - Jesus is not God -- God is his Father.

No, I don't believe he existed before Mary conceived.

He was created within the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit, the power of the Most High.

Matthew records the genealogy of Jesus - the 'genesis' of Jesus; the 'source' of Jesus. ..... genesis - source, origin; a) a book of one's lineage, i.e. in which his ancestry or progeny are enumerated; 2. used of birth, nativity; 3. of that which follows origin, viz. existence, life; a) the wheel of life (Jas 3:6), other explain it, the wheel of human origin which as soon as men are born begins to run, i.e. its course of life

You could not be further from the truth.

The Divine Son of God !

For the nons and anti trins- here is who the OT and NT writers reveal Yahweh to be. We will begin with the New Testament inspired writers and see who they identified as YHWH. Lets walk throughb some scriptures from both testaments.

Lets begin with my favorite gospel, in John 12:37-41 we read the following: Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: "Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" For this reason they could not believe, because as Isaiah says: "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them." Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus Glory and spoke about Him. Johns quote came from Is53:1 and 6:10. Isaiah originally spoke his words about YHWH. John says that what Isaiah actually saw was "Jesus Glory" and that he "spoke of Him." In John's gospel we can see that Jesus was God(YHWH) in the flesh, before the incarnation He(Jesus) was known as YHWH.

Mark begins his Gospel by saying that it is "the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God" (1:1). He then quotes from Malachi 3:1 and Isaiah 40:3 in the following words: "I will send my messenger ahead of you who will prepare your way—a voice of one calling in the desert, Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for Him (Mark 1:2-3). Of course the Lord in Isaiah 40:3 is YHWH the name of the self-existent God of Israel. Mark quotes the first part of Malachi 3:1, I will send my messenger who will prepare the way before Me. (The messenger is John the Baptist.) The next sentence in Malachi says: Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to His temple.The Lord is YHWH. By quoting the first part of this verse Mark implies that Jesus is the fulfillment of what Malachi said regarding YHWH. Mark announces the gospel which is that YHWH the Lord has come as the messenger of the covenant. Mark declares that YHWH is Jesus the Lord who is called the “Son of God”.


Matthew 26:62-66
The high priest stood up and said to Him, "Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?" 63But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God." 64Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." 65 Then the high priest tore his robes and said, "He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy; 66what do you think?" They answered, He deserves death!"

Luke 22:67-71
"If You are the Christ, tell us." But He said to them, "If I tell you, you will not believe; 68and if I ask a question, you will not answer. 69"But from now on THE SON OF MAN WILL BE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND of the power OF GOD." 70And they all said, "Are You the Son of God, then?" And He said to them, "Yes, I Am." 71Then they said, "What further need do we have of testimony? For we have heard it ourselves from His own mouth."

In Romans 10:9-10, we see that Christians will confess that Jesus is Lord. The context through verse 13 clearly shows that Jesus is the Lord which all men must call on in order to be saved. Paul quotes from Joel 2:32 to make his point.Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved (verse 13). If you read Joel 2:32 one can see that Paul quoted from this verse. When we look at the OT passage salvation comes to those who call on the name of YHWH ie...the Divine name of Israel for God. Paul declares it is Jesus upon whom we must call on in order to be saved.

In Philippians 2:9-11, we read that Jesus has a name that is above every name that at His name every knee should bow and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Paul bases his statements on Isaiah 45:23, where we read (By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before Me every knee will bow; by Me every tongue will swear .In the context this is clearly YHWH speaking of Himself. He is the Lord who says there is no God apart from Me in verse 21.Paul does not hesitate in saying that every knee will bow to Jesus and every tongue will confess Jesus is YHWH.

In Hebrews 1: 8-12 we read:
But about the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness, therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy." He also says, "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.

The first thing we see is that the writer of Hebrews quotes from several different Psalms. Psalm 102:5-7. This passage in the Psalms is a clear reference to YHWH. In fact all of Psalm 102 is about YHWH. Hebrews is applying these passages to Jesus. This clearly is what the author of Hebrews is getting across to his readers, that Jesus is YHWH. It shows us that the Son is called both God and Lord in Hebrews.
In 1 Peter we read : I lay a stone in Zion a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in Him will never be put to shame.The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone,a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.

The phrases come from Isaiah 28:16, Psalm 118:22 and Isaiah 8:14. In each of these verses it refers to the Lord or YHWH. In Isaiah 8:13-14, it is YHWH who declares:The Lord Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy, He is the one you are to fear, He is the one you are to dread, and He will be a sanctuary; but for both houses of Israel he will be a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall

So we can see from the NT writers that Jesus is the Lord of the OT. He is YHWH. Paul in Romans 9:32-33 quotes Isaiah 8:14 to show that Jesus is the stumbling stone over whom the unbelieving Jews had stumbled.Paul said :They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them and that rock was Christ.When one reads the clear teaching of the NT we see just as Thomas confessed that Jesus is truly the God of the OT. Jesus is the True God and Eternal Life. The evidence is overwhelming that the identity of YHWH is Jesus. The NT writers are in complete agreement and they identify Jesus as God.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

What does this mean? Does this mean that the Word was not around before the incarnation? What exactly do you know about the Word?

John 1:14

Jehovah Witnesses New Word Translation
So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.

Septuagint LXX
And the word became flesh, and tented among us, and we saw his glory, glory as an only child of the father, full of favor and truth.

New International Version
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

New Living Translation
So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son.

English Standard Version
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Berean Standard Bible
The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Berean Literal Bible
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

King James Bible
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

New King James Version
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

New American Standard Bible
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

NASB 1995
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

NASB 1977
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Legacy Standard Bible
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Amplified Bible
And the Word (Christ) became flesh, and lived among us; and we [actually] saw His glory, glory as belongs to the [One and] only begotten Son of the Father, [the Son who is truly unique, the only One of His kind, who is] full of grace and truth (absolutely free of deception).

Christian Standard Bible
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. We observed his glory, the glory as the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We observed His glory, the glory as the One and Only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

American Standard Version
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.

Contemporary English Version
The Word became a human being and lived here with us. We saw his true glory, the glory of the only Son of the Father. From him the complete gifts of undeserved grace and truth have come down to us.

English Revised Version
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness and truth.

Good News Translation
The Word became a human being and, full of grace and truth, lived among us. We saw his glory, the glory which he received as the Father's only Son.

International Standard Version
The Word became flesh and lived among us. We gazed on his glory, the kind of glory that belongs to the Father's unique Son, who is full of grace and truth.

NET Bible
Now the Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We saw his glory--the glory of the one and only, full of grace and truth, who came from the Father.

New Heart English Bible
And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we saw his glory, such glory as of the one and only of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Webster's Bible Translation
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Weymouth New Testament
And the Word came in the flesh, and lived for a time in our midst, so that we saw His glory--the glory as of the Father's only Son, sent from His presence. He was full of grace and truth.
Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

World English Bible
The Word became flesh and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the only born Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of [the] only begotten of [the] Father, full of grace and truth.

Berean Literal Bible
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Young's Literal Translation
And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.

Smith's Literal Translation
And the Word was flesh, and dwelt with us, (and we beheld his glory, as the glory of the only born of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Catholic Public Domain Version
And the Word became flesh, and he lived among us, and we saw his glory, glory like that of an only-begotten son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

New American Bible
And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.

New Revised Standard Version
And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth.

Translations from Aramaic
Lamsa Bible
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw his glory, a glory like that of the firstborn of the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Peshitta
And The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of The Only Begotten of The Father, full of grace and truth

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of The Only Begotten of The Father, full of grace and truth.

NT Translations
Anderson New Testament
And the WORD became flesh, and tabernacled among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and of truth.

Godbey New Testament
The Word was made flesh, and tented among us (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten with the Father), full of grace and truth.

Haweis New Testament
And the Word became incarnate, and tabernacled with us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Mace New Testament
The Logos became incarnate, and had his tabernacle among us, being full of grace and truth; and we contemplated his glory, such glory as the Monogenes derived from the father.

Weymouth New Testament
And the Word came in the flesh, and lived for a time in our midst, so that we saw His glory--the glory as of the Father's only Son, sent from His presence. He was full of grace and truth.

Worrell New Testament
And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us, (and we beheld His glory—glory as of the Only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.

Worsley New Testament
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, being full of grace and truth: and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father.

the Word in uni language is the opposite of the biblical language.

in uni its an it and impersonal
in the Bible we see the Word is a who and is Personal.

Johns Prologue makes that abundantly clear as does his epistle written by the same Apostle John that bears his name.

We are dealing with the Spirit of Truth ( Trins- biblical ) and the spirit of error ( uni's - unbiblical, falsehood) regarding the Person and work of Christ. The spirit of God and the spirit of antichrist as per Johns inspired writings/teachings. The deceiver always attacks the person and work of Christ. Since He was defeated by Him all the evil one can do is spread lies, deceit, false teachings, error etc.....

The number one test to distinguish truth for error and the Spirit of God from that of the spirit of antichrist is the confession of our divine Lord Jesus Christ. Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God. There is one thing the spirit of antichrist will deny and that is they will deny He is God in the flesh- that He is fully God and fully man. They will deny God in human flesh. They will always deny the Incarnation which was permanent. When a person affirms that Jesus Christ is God in flesh that equates to divine truth. Every spirit that confesses meaning to continually confess or agrees with saying the same thing as John declares in his writings is from God. This is the person who is taught by the Spirit of God according to John. The first test that you want to have for any teacher is their Christology, check out what they say about Christ. This becomes a litmus test that is very easy to spot among the false teachers in the N.T. times which we can apply today. If you have somebody who denies the deity of Christ you have a clear indication their teaching comes from the spirit of antichrist.

If we go back to the beginning of 1 John, we read that which we he beheld, and actually touched concerning the Word of life. That is a term expressing the very deity of Christ. Christ emanates from God as His living Word. He was with the Father in the beginning in 1:2. Jesus was One with the Father sharing the same essence with the Father in heaven with Him before the foundation of the world. John says He was manifested to us. John's language then starts out with the fact that Jesus Christ emanates from God as the very living Word of God. Jesus is the living Word of God,the One John says that was from the beginning that we heard, we saw and we touched. Jesus the Word of life was the eternal One who was with the Father prior to His Incarnation and was then manifested to us in the flesh that we could see and hear and touch according to John. Therefore, we can clearly see Jesus is the very Word of God Incarnate. He is the eternal life who became flesh. The Word who was with God, the Word who was God, was the One who John says was manifested to us. This is how we can tell the spirit of truth from the spirit of antichrist. Can you confess Jesus is God Incarnate?

1 John 4:2
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;

2 John 7
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Erchomenon the present participle in 2 John 7

Alford- the present tense is timeless(pg 274 RNTC on 2 John)

Brooke- the Incarnation is not only an event in history, it is an abiding truth(pg 274 RNTC on 2 John)

Stott- the two natures manhood and Godhood were united already at His birth, never to be divided. In 1 John 4:2 and here in 2 John 7 emphasizes this permanent union of the natures in the One Person ( TNTC pages 209-210) He who denies the Incarnation is not just a deceiver and an antichrist but “the deceiver and the antichrist”. There is in this heresy a double affront: it opposes Christ and deceives men.(stott TNCT page 210)

Marshall- the use of the present and perfect tenses becomes significant if the point is that Jesus Christ had come and still existed “in flesh”. For him(John) it was axiomatic that there had been a true Incarnation, that the word became flesh and remained flesh. It is a point that receives much stress in 1 John 2:18-28, 4:1-6, 5:5-8. (NICNT pages 70-71)

Smalley- the present tense emphasizes the permanent union of the human and Divine natures in Jesus. Gods self disclosure in Jesus took place at a particular moment in history , but it has continuing effects in the present and into the future(Word Biblical Commentary page 317)

Nicoll- the continuous manifestation of the Incarnate Christ(Expositors Greek Testament Volume 5 page 202)

Akin- Much has been made of the fact that John uses the present tense in this Christological confession. Literally the verse reads, “Jesus Christ coming in flesh.” “Coming” is a present active participle. This stands out in remarkable contrast to the affirmation of 1 John 4:2, where the text states that “Jesus Christ has [emphasis mine] come in the flesh.” There the perfect active participle is used. The key, it seems, is to discover what John is affirming. Here in 2 John the emphasis falls on the abiding reality of the incarnation. First John 4:2 teaches that the Christ, the Father’s Son (v. 3), has come in the flesh. Second John affirms that the wedding of deity and humanity has an abiding reality (cf. 1 Tim 2:5). The ontological and essential nature of the incarnation that would receive eloquent expression one thousand years later in the writing of St. Anselm (1033–1109) in his classic Cur Deus Homo is already present in seed form in the tiny and neglected letter of 2 John.

Lenski- In 1 John 4:2 we have ἐν σαρκὶ ἐληλυθότα, the perfect participle, “as having come in flesh” (incarnate, John 1:14); here we have ἐρχόμενον ἐν σαρκί, “as coming in flesh,” although the participle is present in form it is really timeless.of Christ as "still being manifested." See the note at 1 John 3:5. In 1 John 4:2 we have the manifestation treated as a past fact by the perfect tense, ‎eleeluthota ‎"has come

Robertson- That Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh ‎Ieesoun ‎‎Christon ‎‎erchomenon ‎‎en ‎‎sarki‎. "Jesus Christ coming in the flesh." Present middle participle of ‎erchomai ‎treating the Incarnation as a continuing fact which the Docetic Gnostics flatly denied. In 1 John 4:2 we have ‎eleeluthota ‎(perfect active participle) in this same construction with ‎homologeoo‎, because there the reference is to the definite historical fact of the Incarnation.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

no one can say Jesus is Lord ( YHWH ) except by the spirit !

Amen !!!

 

[amazing grace]

John 1 shows Jesus was the Word of God and even the creator. So, yes, He existed before becoming human. But you must be able to believe the words of the Bible. Jesus even acknowledged that He was the I AM of the burning bush, which meant that He was God.

John 1:1c 'Word' is the subject making 'God' the predicate nominative. Therefore, the noun 'God' is descriptive of the subject. The 'Word' was God i.e. the word fully expresses who God is, or the word was the full expression of God. . . the word became embodied in flesh and dwelt among us as the only Son from the Father, Jesus came to make him (God) known---Jesus came to show us the Father.

 

[amazing grace]

What does this mean? Does this mean that the Word was not around before the incarnation? What exactly do you know about the Word?

John 1:14

John 1:1c 'Word' is the subject making 'God' the predicate nominative. Therefore, the noun 'God' is descriptive of the subject. The 'Word' was God i.e. the word fully expresses who God is, or the word was the full expression of God. . . the word became embodied in flesh (was made flesh) and dwelt among us as the only Son from the Father, Jesus came to make him (God) known---Jesus came to show us the Father.

 

[amazing grace]

the Word in uni language is the opposite of the biblical language.

in uni its an it and impersonal
in the Bible we see the Word is a who and is Personal.

Johns Prologue makes that abundantly clear as does his epistle written by the same Apostle John that bears his name.

We are dealing with the Spirit of Truth ( Trins- biblical ) and the spirit of error ( uni's - unbiblical, falsehood) regarding the Person and work of Christ. The spirit of God and the spirit of antichrist as per Johns inspired writings/teachings. The deceiver always attacks the person and work of Christ. Since He was defeated by Him all the evil one can do is spread lies, deceit, false teachings, error etc.....

By confessing that Jesus is God - Trins deny the person and work of Christ, God's Messiah.

The number one test to distinguish truth for error and the Spirit of God from that of the spirit of antichrist is the confession of our divine Lord Jesus Christ. Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God. There is one thing the spirit of antichrist will deny and that is they will deny He is God in the flesh- that He is fully God and fully man. They will deny God in human flesh. They will always deny the Incarnation which was permanent. When a person affirms that Jesus Christ is God in flesh that equates to divine truth. Every spirit that confesses meaning to continually confess or agrees with saying the same thing as John declares in his writings is from God. This is the person who is taught by the Spirit of God according to John. The first test that you want to have for any teacher is their Christology, check out what they say about Christ. This becomes a litmus test that is very easy to spot among the false teachers in the N.T. times which we can apply today. If you have somebody who denies the deity of Christ you have a clear indication their teaching comes from the spirit of antichrist.

TRUE: Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.
Confessing Jesus Christ to be God is denying the Christ.
NOPE-----scripture says nothing about Jesus being God in the flesh, or being fully God and fully man.
YES, we deny God in human flesh. God clearly and succinctly tells us he is not a man.
NO-----scripture says nothing about denying the deity of Christ. Denying the deity of Christ IS NOT ANTICHRIST!!!
Confessing Jesus Christ to be God is denying the Christ, i.e. the spirit of antichrist.

If we go back to the beginning of 1 John, we read that which we he beheld, and actually touched concerning the Word of life. That is a term expressing the very deity of Christ. Christ emanates from God as His living Word. He was with the Father in the beginning in 1:2. Jesus was One with the Father sharing the same essence with the Father in heaven with Him before the foundation of the world. John says He was manifested to us. John's language then starts out with the fact that Jesus Christ emanates from God as the very living Word of God. Jesus is the living Word of God,the One John says that was from the beginning that we heard, we saw and we touched. Jesus the Word of life was the eternal One who was with the Father prior to His Incarnation and was then manifested to us in the flesh that we could see and hear and touch according to John. Therefore, we can clearly see Jesus is the very Word of God Incarnate. He is the eternal life who became flesh. The Word who was with God, the Word who was God, was the One who John says was manifested to us. This is how we can tell the spirit of truth from the spirit of antichrist. Can you confess Jesus is God Incarnate?

1 John 4:2
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;

2 John 7
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Neither of those verses say that we should confess that Jesus is God incarnate.
If we confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh - come in the flesh = a human being, that person is from God.

I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.

So who is the liar? who has the Spirit of anitchrist? He who denied that Jesus is the Christ. When Trins say Jesus is God, they are denying that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

 

[civic]

By confessing that Jesus is God - Trins deny the person and work of Christ, God's Messiah.

TRUE: Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.
Confessing Jesus Christ to be God is denying the Christ.
NOPE-----scripture says nothing about Jesus being God in the flesh, or being fully God and fully man.
YES, we deny God in human flesh. God clearly and succinctly tells us he is not a man.
NO-----scripture says nothing about denying the deity of Christ. Denying the deity of Christ IS NOT ANTICHRIST!!!
Confessing Jesus Christ to be God is denying the Christ, i.e. the spirit of antichrist.

Neither of those verses say that we should confess that Jesus is God incarnate.
If we confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh - come in the flesh = a human being, that person is from God.

I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.

So who is the liar? who has the Spirit of anitchrist? He who denied that Jesus is the Christ. When Trins say Jesus is God, they are denying that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

He is called God many times in John’s writings.

Next fallacy

 

[mikesw]

By confessing that Jesus is God - Trins deny the person and work of Christ, God's Messiah.

TRUE: Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.
Confessing Jesus Christ to be God is denying the Christ.
NOPE-----scripture says nothing about Jesus being God in the flesh, or being fully God and fully man.
YES, we deny God in human flesh. God clearly and succinctly tells us he is not a man.
NO-----scripture says nothing about denying the deity of Christ. Denying the deity of Christ IS NOT ANTICHRIST!!!
Confessing Jesus Christ to be God is denying the Christ, i.e. the spirit of antichrist.

Neither of those verses say that we should confess that Jesus is God incarnate.

Your confusion is evident. John 1 says it all John 1:18 shows Jesus as God more explicitly. Matt 23:37 shows Jesus in his own voice saying what his issue was:
Matthew 23:37 (ESV)
37“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

Only in his divinity can he share how long he has tried to gather them. This hardly is in his obscurity among the people in a ministry less than 3 years on earth.

If we confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh - come in the flesh = a human being, that person is from God.

I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.

So who is the liar? who has the Spirit of anitchrist? He who denied that Jesus is the Christ. When Trins say Jesus is God, they are denying that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

that is illogical but not unexpected from unitarians. I'm not sure how you make the claim that we do not say Christ came in the flesh. That is the whole basis of John, namely God was able to send One to the earth who also is of the same God. He is Jesus who also is Christ. So you try to twist the orthodox understanding or you are very confused.

 

[charismaticlady]

Scripture explicitly says the Son is begotten doesn't it? Doesn't Revelation 3:14 explicitly state he is the beginning of the creation of God? Are there no examples of Jesus pre-existing? Then I don't make any theological assumptions.

Where did you see anything in the Bible about Jesus having no beginning or end? I would add, Jesus is never referred to as eternal anywhere in the Bible. So I am interested to see where you got this idea from.

For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” 3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

 

[amazing grace]

He is called God many times in John’s writings.

Next fallacy

I disagree - He is accused of making himself out to be God ---- Jesus constantly, repeatedly said who his Father was which made him SON OF God and Jesus constantly, repeatedly said that he was the Messiah, the Christ but Jesus did not say he was God.

 

[Runningman]

For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” 3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

So you're saying a human has the same thing the Son of God has?

 

[civic]

I disagree - He is accused of making himself out to be God ---- Jesus constantly, repeatedly said who his Father was which made him SON OF God and Jesus constantly, repeatedly said that he was the Messiah, the Christ but Jesus did not say he was God.

And the Father never said “ I am God “

Next fallacy

 

[amazing grace]

Your confusion is evident. John 1 says it all John 1:18 shows Jesus as God more explicitly. Matt 23:37 shows Jesus in his own voice saying what his issue was:
Matthew 23:37 (ESV)
37“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

Only in his divinity can he share how long he has tried to gather them. This hardly is in his obscurity among the people in a ministry less than 3 years on earth.

Thanks but there is no confusion. John 1 does say it all - the word was fully expressive of God and that full expression of God became flesh in the man Jesus Christ (1:14) and Jesus Christ showed us the Father (1:18).

Yes, that was Jesus speaking in his own voice . . . Why would he have to be deity to know how long his Father has tried to gather Jerusalem? Apparently you don't think he was very familiar with the OT scripture yet he was in the temple sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. And all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers, at an early age.

that is illogical but not unexpected from unitarians. I'm not sure how you make the claim that we do not say Christ came in the flesh. That is the whole basis of John, namely God was able to send One to the earth who also is of the same God. He is Jesus who also is Christ. So you try to twist the orthodox understanding or you are very confused.

It's not illogical at all.
Trins say Jesus came in the flesh and then in the next breath it is God who came in the flesh.
John did not come along to 'delete' all the OT, nor the other Gospels. The whole purpose of the gospel of John --- but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Your sentence from above in red: WHO did God send who is of the same God????
'God was able to send ONE to the earth who also is of the same God. He is Jesus who also is Christ' . . . you are really trying hard not to say 'God came to earth in the flesh' --- it would truly be laughable if it was so sad.

God is not his own anointed Son.....Jesus is the Lord's Christ, the Lord's Messiah.

 

[mikesw]

Thanks but there is no confusion. John 1 does say it all - the word was fully expressive of God and that full expression of God became flesh in the man Jesus Christ (1:14) and Jesus Christ showed us the Father (1:18).

That is hyperliteralism taking over in your thought. You fail to recognize allegory. That makes you deny all of John 1

Yes, that was Jesus speaking in his own voice . . . Why would he have to be deity to know how long his Father has tried to gather Jerusalem? Apparently you don't think he was very familiar with the OT scripture yet he was in the temple sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. And all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers, at an early age.

That misses the whole text. Jesus does not say "the Father says I have tried to gather you..." Jesus speaks of his own voice. That is the problem of unitarians reading into the text anything to deny who Jesus is.

It's not illogical at all.
Trins say Jesus came in the flesh and then in the next breath it is God who came in the flesh.
John did not come along to 'delete' all the OT, nor the other Gospels. The whole purpose of the gospel of John --- but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Christians just follow what John says -- You do not say someone came in the flesh unless he also is something beyond that. John shows he is God. It is hard to deny that despite some people denying that.

Your sentence from above in red: WHO did God send who is of the same God????
'God was able to send ONE to the earth who also is of the same God. He is Jesus who also is Christ' . . . you are really trying hard not to say

I try to make it easier for you to follow, but you just deny what God can do.

'God came to earth in the flesh' --- it would truly be laughable if it was so sad.

Sorry you find the account of Jesus laughable.

God is not his own anointed Son.....Jesus is the Lord's Christ, the Lord's Messiah.

It only is confusing when you do not understand John 1. It reflects two in the Godhead.