The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[360watt]

Yep. That's what I noticed too.

And the reply is that in analyzing scripture you are too hyper literal, therefore dividing and cutting scripture to your liking. So then giving scripture is pointless.

The lack of scripture in reply, I think, is not because there isn't sound contextual scriptural arguments that blow Unitarianism out of the water, but because the scripture we do, as trinitarians give, is cut to pieces.

 

[mikesw]

The messiah threatened to shake up the balance of power in the 1st century just as much as he does today.

There would need to be an authority shift from their trinitarian apologetics handbooks, from their creeds, their interpretations, and inevitably a loss of institutional control. The real Jesus would shake up the trinitarian church and they would be forced to repent, leave apostasy, and become scriptural.

The trinitarian church authority is based on tradition, divine mystery (Gnosticism), and if the mystery about God and Jesus were removed for them, the trinitarians couldn't be gatekeepers of their own religion anymore, but instead assimilate into Jesus' church.

It's remarkable the similar parallels between the 1st century religious establish of Jesus' time and the trinitarian church. Not many would follow Jesus then, the same is true now.

Amazing how backwards you present things.

Jesus did shake up power. He removed power of the leaders of Jerusalem. You seem to pretend that Jesus is going to undo Christianity and leave it back to some unknown power. I guess that is your hope -- a removal of all knowledge of Christ.

You forget that you are introducing the novel, new, gnostic, private interpretation and cannot even defend your argument. You are doing like the JWs and the Mormonites in claiming that everything that was taught before your doctrine condemns people. I suppose you hope to be one of the 144,000 and not miss it by being 144,001.

All you have to do to convince people to unitarianism is to show that the evidence in scripture of the deity of Christ and his preexistence as the Word is untrustworthy. But you cannot even do that.

 

[FreeInChrist]

if you deny His deity, you have false Christ, and shall die in your sins

That's not true. Since it's your claim ---- prove it.
Where does scripture say that I must believe Jesus is deity, i.e. God?

I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.” So they said to him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been telling you from the beginning.

That scripture does not say 'unless you believe I am deity you will die in your sins'. Who has Jesus been telling them he was all this time, the Son of God, the Messiah.

Let me offer this to you.....

Without argument anyone who has ready the Holy words has read that in John 8:24 Jesus said
24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

Did you read that at a glance without it resonating? ..... John 8:24 delivers a sober, loving warning: every person stands at a crossroads. Persist in unbelief, and sin remains, bringing eternal death. Believe that Jesus is exactly who He claims—the divine Savior—and His atoning work removes every sin, granting everlasting life.

In Book of Exodus 3:14, God reveals His name to Moses as:

“I AM WHO I AM.”

Now pay attention because this is important.

In Greek (in the Septuagint), this is also rendered with ego eimi (“I am”).

Later in John 8:58, Jesus says:

“Before Abraham was, I am.”

Remember what happened at that statement?????????????

At that statement, the crowd tries to stone Him — suggesting they understood it as a claim to divine identity.

Because of this, many Christians conclude: Jesus was identifying Himself with Yahweh And Therefore, believing He is truly God is essential to salvation.

Before going on ( especially the last 2 references, dont miss)

The greek English Interlinear says.... Blue Letter Bible https://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/interlinear/mgnt/jhn/8/24/

egō eimi
ἐγώ εἰμι
I am[He], (NOTICE THE HE HAS BEEN ADDED BY SOMEONE.)
ALSO
Biblue hubs interlinear.... https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/8.htm

egō eimi
ἐγώ εἰμι

I am [He] ( Once again the He has been added here also , indicating it was not the original way Jesus said the verse.)


Here is a very in-depth study of "I am" in the bible.... If you choose not to read all or any of this, at least scroll down to the final entries in red.

Just becaue you never saw it before, or because you have not studied Greek that would allow you to see does not make that not so.

And PALEEEZE ... do not tell me you are relying on the word of others without doing your due diligence on possibly something this inmportant....

"I AM" Sayings in the Fourth Gospel
compiled by Felix Just, S.J., Ph.D.

---

Overview:​

JESUS HIMSELF says "I Am" ( Greek eimi) forty–five times in John's Gospel (including when other characters quote Jesus' words). Twenty–four of these are emphatic, explicitly including the pronoun "I" (Greek ego eimi – bold references), which would not be necessary in Greek grammar. These emphatic references can also be sub-divided into "Absolute" or "Predicate" statements, as explained below.

John 4:26; 6:20; 6:35; 6:41; 6:48; 6:51; 7:28; 7:29; 7:33; 7:34; 7:36; 8:12; 8:16; 8:18; 8:23 (twice); 8:24; 8:28; 8:58; 9:5; 10:7; 10:9; 10:11; 10:14; 10:36; 11:25; 12:26; 13:13; 13:19; 13:33; 14:3; 14:6; 14:9; 15:1; 15:5; 16:32; 17:11; 17:14; 17:16; 17:24; 18:5; 18:6; 18:8; 18:37; 19:21

OTHER CHARACTERS in the Fourth Gospel only rarely say, "I am" or "I am (something)," mostly in the negative, "I am not":

John the Baptizer (1:20; 1:21; 1:27; 3:28–twice); The Man Born Blind (9:9); Simon Peter (18:17; 18:25); and Pontius Pilate (18:35).

In all other NEW TESTAMENT books, “I am” occurs a total of eighty–six times (in the present tense; not counting, "I was" or "I will be"), of which only twenty–four are emphatic (Matt 14:27; 22:32; 24:5; 26:22, 25; Mark 6:50; 13:6; 14:62; Luke 1:19; 21:8; 22:70; 24:39; Acts 9:5; 10:21; 18:10; 22:3, 8; 26:15, 29; Rev 1:8, 17; 2:23; 21:6; 22:16). See below for a list of these texts.

​

In the HEBREW BIBLE, the meaning of God's name (YHWH) is closely related to "I am" (see Exod 3:14; 6:2; Deut 32:39; Isa 43:25; 48:12; 51:12; etc.). In the LXX, most of these passages are translated with the Greek expression ego eimi:

Exod 3:14 – God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, I AM has sent me to you."
Exod 6:2 – And God said to Moses, "I am the LORD."
Deut 32:39a – "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me;"
Isa 48:12 – "Hearken to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am He, I am the first, and I am the last."

Thus, many interpreters believe that the Johannine Jesus is making divine claims with at least some (or most?) of the following statements.

---

Absolute Emphatic "I AM" Statements of the Johannine Jesus:​

There is no predicate in these sayings (John 4:26; 6:20; 8:24, 28, 58; 13:19; 18:5, 6, 8). Caution: the RSV and other English Bibles often translate this phrase, "I am he", but the pronoun "he" is not explicit in the Greek text.

To the Samaritan Woman at Jacob's well near the town of Sychar:
4:26 – Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am (he)." [lit. "I am, the one speaking with you."]

To his disciples in the boat while Jesus is walking on the Sea of Galilee:
6:20 – but he said to them, "It is I (lit. "I Am"); do not be afraid." (cf. Mark 6:50; Matt 14:27)

To "the Jews" in Jerusalem at the Feast of Tabernacles:
8:24 – "I told you that you would die in your sins, for you will die in your sins unless you believe that I am (he)."

8:28 – So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will know that I am (he), and that I do nothing on my own authority but speak thus as the Father taught me."

8:58 – Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

To his disciples at the Last Supper in Jerusalem:
13:19 – "I tell you this now, before it takes place, that when it does take place you may believe that I am (he)."

To the soldiers and guards who come to arrest Jesus in the Garden in the Kidron Valley (Gethsemane):
18:5 – They answered him, "Jesus of Nazareth." Jesus said to them, "I am (he)." Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them.

18:6 – When he said to them, "I am (he)," they drew back and fell to the ground.

18:8 – Jesus answered, "I told you that I am (he); so, if you seek me, let these men go."

---

Predicate Emphatic "I Am" Statements of the Johannine Jesus:​

In these sayings, a metaphorical image completes the thought: John 6:35, 41, 48, 51; 8:12, 18, 23 (twice); 10:7, 9, 11, 14; 11:25; 14:6; 15:1, 5

To the crowds in Galilee after the Feeding of the 5000 (in the "Bread of Life Discourse"):
6:35 – Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst."

6:41 – The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven."

6:48 – "I am the bread of life."

6:51 –"I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."

To "the Jews" in Jerusalem at the Feast of Tabernacles:
8:12 – Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." (cf. 9:5 – "I am the light of the world", but grammatically unemphatic, without "ego"; see also John 1:4-5, 9; 12:46)

8:18 – "I bear witness to myself (lit. "I am the one bearing witness...") to myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness to me."

8:23 (twice) – He said to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world."

To "the Jews" just after Jesus gives sight to the Man Born Blind (the "Good Shepherd Discourse"):
10:7 – So Jesus again said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep."

10:9 – "I am the door; if any one enters by me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

10:11 –"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."

10:14 –"I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me,"

To Martha of Bethany, just before Jesus raises her brother Lazarus back to life:
11:25 – Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live," (cf. 5:24; 8:51

To his disciples at their last meal together (the "Last Supper Discourse"):
14:6 – Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me." (cf. 8:32)

15:1 – "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser."

15:5 – "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing."

Most of the above images have their roots in the books of the Hebrew Bible, where they are used primary for God:

• Bread of Life / Bread from Heaven - see Exod 16; Num 11:6-9; Ps 78:24; Isa 55:1-3; Neh 9:15; 2 Mac 2:5-8
• Light of the World - Exod 13:21-22; Isa 42:6-7; Ps 97:4
• Good Shepherd - Ezek 34:1-41; Gen 48:15; 49:24; Ps 23:1-4; 80:1; 100:3-4; Micah 7:14
• Resurrection / Life - Dan 12:2; Ps 56:13; 2 Mac 7:1-38
• Way - Exod 33:13; Ps 25:4; 27:11; 86:11; 119:59; Isa 40:3; 62:10
• Truth - 1 Kings 17:4; Ps 25:5; 43:3; 86:11; 119:160; Isa 45:19
• Vine / Vineyard - Isa 5:1-7; Ps 80:9-17; Jer 2:21; Ezek 17:5-10

---

Non–Emphatic "I am" Statements of the Johannine Jesus:​

Other passages of John's Gospel in which Jesus himself, or others quoting Jesus, say "I am" (Greek eimi, but without the explicit pronoun ego for "I").

To "the Jews" in Jerusalem at the Feast of Tabernacles:
7:28 – So Jesus proclaimed, as he taught in the temple, "You know me, and you know where I come from [lit. "from where I am"]? But I have not come of my own accord; he who sent me is true, and him you do not know."

7:29 – "I know him, for I come from him (lit. "from him I am"), and he sent me."

7:33 – Jesus then said, "I shall be with you a little longer, and then I go to him who sent me;"

7:34 – "...you will seek me and you will not find me; where I am you cannot come."

7:36 – "What does he mean by saying, 'You will seek me and you will not find me,' and, 'Where I am you cannot come'?"

8:16 – "Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone that judge, but I and he who sent me."

To his disciples, just before Jesus gives sight to the Man Born Blind:
9:5 – "As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

To "the Jews" in Jerusalem at the Feast of the Dedication:
10:36 –"Do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?"

To some of his disciples while Jesus speaks of his coming "hour" of glorification:
12:26 – "If any one serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there shall my servant be also; if any one serves me, the Father will honor him."

To his disciples just after Jesus washes their feet at the Last Supper:
13:13 – "You call me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am."

To his disciples at their last meal together (the "Last Supper Discourse"):
13:33 – "Little children, yet a little while I am with you. You will seek me; and as I said to the Jews so now I say to you, Where I am going you cannot come."

14:3 – "And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also."

14:9 – Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?"

16:32 – "The hour is coming, indeed it has come, when you will be scattered, every man to his home, and will leave me alone; yet I am not alone, for the Father is with me."

In the great prayer that Jesus addresses to the Father:
17:11 – "And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one."

17:14 – "I have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world."

17:16 – "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world."

17:24 – "Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, may be with me where I am, to behold my glory which thou hast given me in thy love for me before the foundation of the world."

To Pilate during the trial of Jesus:
18:37 – Pilate said to him, "So you are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. For this I was born, and for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Every one who is of the truth hears my voice."

Just after the crucifixion of Jesus:
19:21 – The chief priests of the Jews then said to Pilate, "Do not write, 'The King of the Jews,' but, 'This man said, I am King of the Jews.'"

---

"I am" Statements (often "I am not") spoken by Other Characters in the Fourth Gospel:​

John the Baptist:

1:20 – He confessed, he did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ."

1:21 – And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the prophet?" And he answered, "No."

1:27 – "...even he who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie."

3:28 (twice) – "You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but I have been sent (lit. "I am the one sent") before him."

The Man Born Blind:

9:9 – Some said, "It is he"; others said, "No, but he is like him." He said, "I am (the man)."

Simon Peter:

18:17 – The maid who kept the door said to Peter, "Are not you also one of this man's disciples?" He said, "I am not."

18:25 – Now Simon Peter was standing and warming himself. They said to him, "Are not you also one of his disciples?" He denied it and said, "I am not."

Pontius Pilate:

18:35 – Pilate answered, "Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have handed you over to me; what have you done?"

---

"I am" Statements in the Rest of the New Testament:​

• Matt 14:27 – [As Jesus walks on water toward his disciples in the boat]: But immediately Jesus spoke to them and said, “Take heart, it is I [lit. ‘I am’]; do not be afraid.” (cf. Mark 6:50; John 6:20)
• Matt 22:32 – [Jesus, quoting Exod 3:6]: “‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is God not of the dead, but of the living.”
• Matt 24:5 – [Jesus]: “For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah!’ and they will lead many astray.”
• Matt 26:22 – And they [Jesus' disciples] became greatly distressed and began to say to him one after another, “Surely not I, Lord?”
• Matt 26:25 – Judas, who betrayed him, said, “Surely not I, Rabbi?” He replied, “You have said so.”
• Mark 6:49-50 – [As Jesus walks on water toward his disciples in the boat]: But when they saw him walking on the sea, they thought it was a ghost and cried out; / for they all saw him and were terrified. But immediately he spoke to them and said, “Take heart, it is I [lit. ‘I am’]; do not be afraid.” (cf. Matt 14:27; John 6:20)
• Mark 13:6 – [Jesus]: “Many will come in my name and say, ‘I am [he]!’ and they will lead many astray.”
• Mark 14:62 – Jesus said, “I am; and ‘you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power,’ and ‘coming with the clouds of heaven.’”
• Luke 1:19 – The angel replied [to Zechariah], “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news.”
• Luke 21:8 – And he [Jesus, to his disciples] said, “Beware that you are not led astray; for many will come in my name and say, ‘I am [he]!’ and, ‘The time is near!’ Do not go after them.”
• Luke 22:70 – All of them [chief priests, scribes, and elders, interrogating Jesus] asked, “Are you, then, the Son of God?” He said to them, “You say that I am.”
• Luke 24:39 – [Risen Jesus, to his disciples]: “Look at my hands and my feet; see that it is I myself. Touch me and see; for a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
• Acts 9:5 – He [Paul] asked, “Who are you, Lord?” The reply came, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.”
• Acts 10:21 – So Peter went down to the men and said, “I am the one you are looking for; what is the reason for your coming?”
• Acts 18:9-10 – One night the Lord said to Paul in a vision, "Do not be afraid, but speak and do not be silent; / for I am with you, and no one will lay a hand on you to harm you, for there are many in this city who are my people.”
• Acts 22:3 – [Paul speaking to a Jewish crowd]: “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, educated strictly according to our ancestral law, being zealous for God, just as all of you are today.”
• Acts 22:8 – [Paul, recounting the appear of Jesus to him]: “I answered, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ Then he said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you are persecuting.’”
• Acts 26:15 – [Paul, again recounting the appear of Jesus]: “I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ The Lord answered, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.’”
• Acts 26:29 – Paul replied, “Whether quickly or not, I pray to God that not only you but also all who are listening to me today might become such as I am--except for these chains.”
• Rev 1:8 – “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
• Rev 1:17 – [John, seeing a vision of Jesus]: When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he placed his right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,”
• Rev 2:23 – [Jesus, in the letter to the church in Thyatira]: “And all the churches will know that I am the one who searches minds and hearts, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”
• Rev 21:6 – [John, quoting Jesus]: Then he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give water as a gift from the spring of the water of life.”
• Rev 22:16 – “It is I, Jesus, who sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

Therefore it is with assurance that you can say when Jesus said "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.” that he once again claimed the "I am" name of God as himself and therefore you must believe who he is...... IT MATTERS.

And I will finish with some ARAMAIC THAT JESUS WAS ALSO FLUENT IN.

The Aramaic Bible in plain English John 8: 24- 30

24"I said to you that you shall die in your sins, for unless you shall believe that I AM THE LIVING GOD, you shall die in your sins." 25The Judeans were saying, "Who are you?" Yeshua said to them, "Even though I have begun to talk with you, 26There are many things for me to say and judge concerning you, but he who has sent me is true, and those things that I have heard from him, these things I am speaking in the world." 27And they did not know that he spoke to them about The Father. 28Yeshua spoke again to them : "When you have lifted up The Son of Man, then you shall know that I AM THE LIVING GOD, and I do nothing for my own pleasure, but just as my Father has taught me, so I am speaking. 29And he who has sent me is with me, and my Father has not left me alone, because I am doing always what is beautiful to him." 30When he was speaking these things, many trusted in him.

The Peshitta John 8-34

24“I said to you that you shall die in your sins, for unless you shall believe that I AM THE LIVING GOD, you shall die in your sins.” 25The Judeans were saying, “Who are you?” Yeshua said to them, “Even though I have begun to talk with you, 26There are many things for me to say and judge concerning you, but he who has sent me is true, and those things that I have heard from him, these things I am speaking in the world.” 27And they did not know that he spoke to them about The Father. 28Yeshua spoke again to them: “When you have lifted up The Son of Man, then you shall know that I AM THE LIVING GOD, and I do nothing for my own pleasure, but just as my Father has taught me, so I am speaking. 29And he who has sent me is with me, and my Father has not left me alone, because I am doing always what is beautiful to him.” 30When he was speaking these things, many trusted in him.

 

[amazing grace]

I'm sorry if I am here more to point out the lack of interpretation skills of unitarians. It is not trash talking-- or not usually. It is analysis of the fallacies of the unitarians. We have also learned that the Christadelphians try to claim they use the direct wording of the passages that then need no interpretation. That first means that they choose verses they like and claim that other verses are not important or that they must be interpreted in light of the interpretations of the "simpler" verses -- not concerned that the other verses contradict the unitarian view. These are just observations I have made.

If you are not prepared to debate a position pointed out within a thread with scripture in a Christian forum then your only purpose here is to criticize the proponents without biblical scripture as your foundation thus ending up just giving your opinion. Of course, there are times when scripture is not needed but to NEVER use it within a Christian debate? ---- yeah, your personal opinion.

Your so-called analysis of scriptures given by anyone disagreeing with the doctrine of the Trinity is more aimed at the opponent than a critical analysis of the scripture being used.

BTW, study hermeneutics and the rules of hermeneutics ---- a principle of interpreting difficult verses in light of clear, unambitious passages is a foundation of biblical exegesis and hermeneutics, scripture interpreting scripture.

I'm not sure what the unitarians are doing here since they are unable to overcome the passages that testify to the deity of Christ. They are not apparently here to learn about scriptures or to check their ideas.

What are unitarians doing here? Standing up for the man of Nazareth, Jesus Christ who laid his life down for us and for God his Father raising him from the dead ensuing the promise of eternal life for those who believe and know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent.

What scriptures testify to the deity of Christ?
There is not one verse that calls Jesus 'God the Son'; not one verse that actually says Jesus is a god-man; not one verse which actually says we must believe Jesus is God; not one verse that says Jesus is 100%God100%man; not one verse out of app. 31,102 that says God is Triune, three persons yet one God; not one verse that actually says Jesus is God because if it's that important of a doctrine it should have been plainly and clearly taught by someone somewhere and if you believed there were any - fight for your doctrine through those scriptures instead of through criticism.

Speaking for myself as a Biblical Unitarian - the purpose as in any debate forum is as opponents to a doctrine I no longer believe is Biblical and to defend monotheism .... the stance of God and his Son Jesus Christ.

 

[FreeInChrist]

@amazing grace .

My reply to you above is loaded with scriptures, from every conceivable verse of the Holy words, along with the same verse is from two different Aramaic sources that point out that John 8:24 has been added to by someone... a man no doubt... because a woman's input would have never been accepted... and not even by me.

And not one person on this forum could make the mistake of saying the Aramaic was translated wrong .
No. Aramaic translations of John 8:24 into English were not done because Catholics “did it first.” The history is more complex and involves multiple Christian traditions over many centuries.

So when that pops up from time to time it behooves everyone to check out both sources I have the links to above.....

But to condense things... Lets look.... yet again... I tried to put the scriptures in quote boxes to be found easily.

What Does John 8:24 Actually Say in Greek?​

In Greek, John 8:24 reads:

ἐὰν γὰρ μὴ πιστεύσητε ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι
(ean gar mē pisteusēte hoti egō eimi)
“For unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.”

There is no word for “he” in the Greek text.

The phrase is simply:

ἐγώ εἰμι (ego eimi)
literally: “I am”

The word “he” does not appear in the Greek manuscripts.

Why Do English Bibles Add “He”?​

English grammar often requires a predicate after “I am.”
In Greek, you can say simply:

“Unless you believe that I am…”

and leave it hanging.


In English, that sounds incomplete. So translators add: Do you read this? Do you understand it? The expletive translators are the ones responsible for adding to the Holy words and creating confusion for all. They are the ones who claim

“I am he”

is correct........

The “he” is:
Not in the Greek
Added for readability
Usually placed in italics in older translations (like the King James Version) to show it was supplied by translators

It is a grammatical smoothing, not a manuscript change.

Did Someone Add “He” to Change the Theology?​

There is no historical evidence that Catholics added it to weaken the claim. Or Protestants added it to weaken the claim. Or that Anyone altered the Greek text.

The Greek manuscripts ..... including the oldest ones .....read simply:
ἐγώ εἰμι
I am

Pay attention!!!!!

The addition of “he” happens only in translation, not in the source text.

Does “I Am” Connect to God’s Name?​

This is where it gets powerful.

In the Old Testament, in Book of Exodus 3:14, God says:

“I AM WHO I AM”

In Hebrew:

אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה (Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh)

When the Hebrew Scriptures were translated into Greek (the Septuagint), it became:

ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν
“I am the One who is”

So when Jesus says “ἐγώ εἰμι” repeatedly in John — especially in:

John 8:24
John 8:28 and
John 8:58 (“Before Abraham was, I am”)

And many scholars believe John is deliberately echoing Exodus 3:14.


Do YOU remeber why In John 8:58, they try to stone Him? Because they understood it as a divine claim.

​

What About the Aramaic (Peshitta)?.... that I posted in the above reply....​

In the Peshitta, John 8:24 reads with the Aramaic equivalent:

ܐܢܐ ܐܢܐ (ana ana)
“I am”

Sometimes English translations from Syriac insert “[he]” for clarity just like Greek translations do. But in this case we know it was added because the parenthesis are there.
The “he” is not in the Aramaic text. It’s added in English to make a smooth sentence.

Does Adding “He” Weaken the Claim?​

That depends on how someone reads it.

If translated:

“Unless you believe that I am…”

It sounds like an absolute divine claim.


If translated:

“Unless you believe that I am he…”

It can sound like: “I am the Messiah” or “I am the one”

But here’s the key:
Even when translated “I am he,” the Greek construction still leaves the predicate unstated. The sentence is grammatically abrupt. Many scholars call it the “absolute ego eimi.”
That abruptness is what gives it theological force.
My finishing point for now is.....

---

Who Added the “He”?​

It was not.....
Not a church council.
Not Catholics.
Not scribes altering manuscripts.


It was added by English translators because:
English does not comfortably allow a hanging “I am” without context.

Older translations marked it in italics to show it was supplied.


Modern translations often don’t use italics anymore, which makes it less obvious.

Important Context​

Briefly, Look at John 8:28:

“When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am.”

And John 8:58:

“Before Abraham was, I am.”

In 8:58 there is absolutely no “he” supplied — and that is one of the clearest divine-claim passages in the New Testament.

Let me enlarge this for comfort in reading.........

In 8:58 there is absolutely no “he” supplied — and that is one of the clearest divine-claim passages in the New Testament.

---

So what have we learned here?​

The Greek text says only “ἐγώ εἰμι” — “I am.”
The word “he” was added in English translations for grammar.
It was not added in the manuscripts.
It was not a Catholic alteration.
The theological weight of the phrase remains even with “he” supplied.


If anything, the abrupt “I am” in Greek is stronger, not weaker.

Amen, amen

 

[amazing grace]

error in posting

 

[amazing grace]

Let me offer this to you.....

Without argument anyone who has ready the Holy words has read that in John 8:24 Jesus said
24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

Did you read that at a glance without it resonating? ..... John 8:24 delivers a sober, loving warning: every person stands at a crossroads. Persist in unbelief, and sin remains, bringing eternal death. Believe that Jesus is exactly who He claims—the divine Savior—and His atoning work removes every sin, granting everlasting life.

In Book of Exodus 3:14, God reveals His name to Moses as:

“I AM WHO I AM.”

Now pay attention because this is important.

In Greek (in the Septuagint), this is also rendered with ego eimi (“I am”).

Later in John 8:58, Jesus says:

“Before Abraham was, I am.”

Remember what happened at that statement?????????????

At that statement, the crowd tries to stone Him — suggesting they understood it as a claim to divine identity.

Because of this, many Christians conclude: Jesus was identifying Himself with Yahweh And Therefore, believing He is truly God is essential to salvation.

Before going on ( especially the last 2 references, dont miss)

The greek English Interlinear says.... Blue Letter Bible https://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/interlinear/mgnt/jhn/8/24/

egō eimi
ἐγώ εἰμι
I am[He], (NOTICE THE HE HAS BEEN ADDED BY SOMEONE.)
ALSO
Biblue hubs interlinear.... https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/8.htm

egō eimi
ἐγώ εἰμι

I am [He] ( Once again the He has been added here also , indicating it was not the original way Jesus said the verse.)


Here is a very in-depth study of "I am" in the bible.... If you choose not to read all or any of this, at least scroll down to the final entries in red.

Just becaue you never saw it before, or because you have not studied Greek that would allow you to see does not make that not so.

And PALEEEZE ... do not tell me you are relying on the word of others without doing your due diligence on possibly something this inmportant....

"I AM" Sayings in the Fourth Gospel
compiled by Felix Just, S.J., Ph.D.

---

Overview:​

JESUS HIMSELF says "I Am" ( Greek eimi) forty–five times in John's Gospel (including when other characters quote Jesus' words). Twenty–four of these are emphatic, explicitly including the pronoun "I" (Greek ego eimi – bold references), which would not be necessary in Greek grammar. These emphatic references can also be sub-divided into "Absolute" or "Predicate" statements, as explained below.


OTHER CHARACTERS in the Fourth Gospel only rarely say, "I am" or "I am (something)," mostly in the negative, "I am not":

In all other NEW TESTAMENT books, “I am” occurs a total of eighty–six times (in the present tense; not counting, "I was" or "I will be"), of which only twenty–four are emphatic (Matt 14:27; 22:32; 24:5; 26:22, 25; Mark 6:50; 13:6; 14:62; Luke 1:19; 21:8; 22:70; 24:39; Acts 9:5; 10:21; 18:10; 22:3, 8; 26:15, 29; Rev 1:8, 17; 2:23; 21:6; 22:16). See below for a list of these texts.

​

In the HEBREW BIBLE, the meaning of God's name (YHWH) is closely related to "I am" (see Exod 3:14; 6:2; Deut 32:39; Isa 43:25; 48:12; 51:12; etc.). In the LXX, most of these passages are translated with the Greek expression ego eimi:


Thus, many interpreters believe that the Johannine Jesus is making divine claims with at least some (or most?) of the following statements.

---

Absolute Emphatic "I AM" Statements of the Johannine Jesus:​

There is no predicate in these sayings (John 4:26; 6:20; 8:24, 28, 58; 13:19; 18:5, 6, 8). Caution: the RSV and other English Bibles often translate this phrase, "I am he", but the pronoun "he" is not explicit in the Greek text.

---

Predicate Emphatic "I Am" Statements of the Johannine Jesus:​

In these sayings, a metaphorical image completes the thought: John 6:35, 41, 48, 51; 8:12, 18, 23 (twice); 10:7, 9, 11, 14; 11:25; 14:6; 15:1, 5


Most of the above images have their roots in the books of the Hebrew Bible, where they are used primary for God:

• Bread of Life / Bread from Heaven - see Exod 16; Num 11:6-9; Ps 78:24; Isa 55:1-3; Neh 9:15; 2 Mac 2:5-8
• Light of the World - Exod 13:21-22; Isa 42:6-7; Ps 97:4
• Good Shepherd - Ezek 34:1-41; Gen 48:15; 49:24; Ps 23:1-4; 80:1; 100:3-4; Micah 7:14
• Resurrection / Life - Dan 12:2; Ps 56:13; 2 Mac 7:1-38
• Way - Exod 33:13; Ps 25:4; 27:11; 86:11; 119:59; Isa 40:3; 62:10
• Truth - 1 Kings 17:4; Ps 25:5; 43:3; 86:11; 119:160; Isa 45:19
• Vine / Vineyard - Isa 5:1-7; Ps 80:9-17; Jer 2:21; Ezek 17:5-10

---

Non–Emphatic "I am" Statements of the Johannine Jesus:​

Other passages of John's Gospel in which Jesus himself, or others quoting Jesus, say "I am" (Greek eimi, but without the explicit pronoun ego for "I").

---

"I am" Statements (often "I am not") spoken by Other Characters in the Fourth Gospel:​

John the Baptist:


The Man Born Blind:

Simon Peter:

Pontius Pilate:

---

"I am" Statements in the Rest of the New Testament:​

• Matt 14:27 – [As Jesus walks on water toward his disciples in the boat]: But immediately Jesus spoke to them and said, “Take heart, it is I [lit. ‘I am’]; do not be afraid.” (cf. Mark 6:50; John 6:20)
• Matt 22:32 – [Jesus, quoting Exod 3:6]: “‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is God not of the dead, but of the living.”
• Matt 24:5 – [Jesus]: “For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah!’ and they will lead many astray.”
• Matt 26:22 – And they [Jesus' disciples] became greatly distressed and began to say to him one after another, “Surely not I, Lord?”
• Matt 26:25 – Judas, who betrayed him, said, “Surely not I, Rabbi?” He replied, “You have said so.”
• Mark 6:49-50 – [As Jesus walks on water toward his disciples in the boat]: But when they saw him walking on the sea, they thought it was a ghost and cried out; / for they all saw him and were terrified. But immediately he spoke to them and said, “Take heart, it is I [lit. ‘I am’]; do not be afraid.” (cf. Matt 14:27; John 6:20)
• Mark 13:6 – [Jesus]: “Many will come in my name and say, ‘I am [he]!’ and they will lead many astray.”
• Mark 14:62 – Jesus said, “I am; and ‘you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power,’ and ‘coming with the clouds of heaven.’”
• Luke 1:19 – The angel replied [to Zechariah], “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news.”
• Luke 21:8 – And he [Jesus, to his disciples] said, “Beware that you are not led astray; for many will come in my name and say, ‘I am [he]!’ and, ‘The time is near!’ Do not go after them.”
• Luke 22:70 – All of them [chief priests, scribes, and elders, interrogating Jesus] asked, “Are you, then, the Son of God?” He said to them, “You say that I am.”
• Luke 24:39 – [Risen Jesus, to his disciples]: “Look at my hands and my feet; see that it is I myself. Touch me and see; for a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
• Acts 9:5 – He [Paul] asked, “Who are you, Lord?” The reply came, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.”
• Acts 10:21 – So Peter went down to the men and said, “I am the one you are looking for; what is the reason for your coming?”
• Acts 18:9-10 – One night the Lord said to Paul in a vision, "Do not be afraid, but speak and do not be silent; / for I am with you, and no one will lay a hand on you to harm you, for there are many in this city who are my people.”
• Acts 22:3 – [Paul speaking to a Jewish crowd]: “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, educated strictly according to our ancestral law, being zealous for God, just as all of you are today.”
• Acts 22:8 – [Paul, recounting the appear of Jesus to him]: “I answered, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ Then he said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you are persecuting.’”
• Acts 26:15 – [Paul, again recounting the appear of Jesus]: “I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ The Lord answered, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.’”
• Acts 26:29 – Paul replied, “Whether quickly or not, I pray to God that not only you but also all who are listening to me today might become such as I am--except for these chains.”
• Rev 1:8 – “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
• Rev 1:17 – [John, seeing a vision of Jesus]: When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he placed his right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,”
• Rev 2:23 – [Jesus, in the letter to the church in Thyatira]: “And all the churches will know that I am the one who searches minds and hearts, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”
• Rev 21:6 – [John, quoting Jesus]: Then he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give water as a gift from the spring of the water of life.”
• Rev 22:16 – “It is I, Jesus, who sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

Therefore it is with assurance that you can say when Jesus said "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.” that he once again claimed the "I am" name of God as himself and therefore you must believe who he is...... IT MATTERS.

And I will finish with some ARAMAIC THAT JESUS WAS ALSO FLUENT IN.

The Aramaic Bible in plain English John 8: 24- 30

24"I said to you that you shall die in your sins, for unless you shall believe that I AM THE LIVING GOD, you shall die in your sins." 25The Judeans were saying, "Who are you?" Yeshua said to them, "Even though I have begun to talk with you, 26There are many things for me to say and judge concerning you, but he who has sent me is true, and those things that I have heard from him, these things I am speaking in the world." 27And they did not know that he spoke to them about The Father. 28Yeshua spoke again to them : "When you have lifted up The Son of Man, then you shall know that I AM THE LIVING GOD, and I do nothing for my own pleasure, but just as my Father has taught me, so I am speaking. 29And he who has sent me is with me, and my Father has not left me alone, because I am doing always what is beautiful to him." 30When he was speaking these things, many trusted in him.

The Peshitta John 8-34

24“I said to you that you shall die in your sins, for unless you shall believe that I AM THE LIVING GOD, you shall die in your sins.” 25The Judeans were saying, “Who are you?” Yeshua said to them, “Even though I have begun to talk with you, 26There are many things for me to say and judge concerning you, but he who has sent me is true, and those things that I have heard from him, these things I am speaking in the world.” 27And they did not know that he spoke to them about The Father. 28Yeshua spoke again to them: “When you have lifted up The Son of Man, then you shall know that I AM THE LIVING GOD, and I do nothing for my own pleasure, but just as my Father has taught me, so I am speaking. 29And he who has sent me is with me, and my Father has not left me alone, because I am doing always what is beautiful to him.” 30When he was speaking these things, many trusted in him.

You have had me on ignore for many weeks and NOW you expect me to respond to this mish mash of a post done mostly by AI?

You would do better by breaking up this LOOONG post into more readable and discussable paragraphs.

 

[FreeInChrist]

You have had me on ignore for many weeks and NOW you expect me to respond to this mish mash of a post done mostly by AI?

You would do better by breaking up this LOOONG post into more readable and discussable paragraphs.

Dont you throw your Ai at me.... I have 3 postings done over time that I can use when I am wanting to. Today I wanted to. I told you when you got tto a certain point to skip that because I realize it is tediously long but you are the one who said about lack of scriptures.... but wanted you to be certain to see the Aramaic references.

Do I expect you to reply to it all? Nope.... but if you chose to I would have thought as you were going through you would have found the natural break for paragraphical commenting.

BTW... I never keep people on ignore when they are making reasonable comments to others but when I cannot follow what, say maybe you, have said by someone in reply I need to know what was said.

In fact at the end of the ignore comment it says "Show ignored content" And when I click on that for you I get the message "Show hidden content by amazing grace, Runningman" and if I click on that I might get your content or I might get Runningmans... So now I keep you out here because... truth be told.... I dont know what was up with that but it has been doing it for a while between you two.

In any event.... I made my point.

Bye for now

 

[Peterlag]

And the reply is that in analyzing scripture you are too hyper literal, therefore dividing and cutting scripture to your liking. So then giving scripture is pointless.

The lack of scripture in reply, I think, is not because there isn't sound contextual scriptural arguments that blow Unitarianism out of the water, but because the scripture we do, as trinitarians give, is cut to pieces.

Interesting how both sides say the same things.

Trinitarians say this is the Bible and if you do not accept it then you don't believe what Jesus said.

The non trinitarians say that verse was taken out of context and if you do not accept it then you don't believe the Bible.

My take is this...
The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

cc: @Runningman

 

[Doug Brents]

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

cc: @Runningman

And all you have is this inane accusation with no real content or value.

 

[FreeInChrist]

There's nothing in the book of Philippians that says Jesus emptied himself of his Godhood. Nothing.

What did Jesus empty himself from?

What the Scriptures say he was... the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, thus, royal blood. He humbled himself from what he was and took on the role of a servant.

After saying that Christ was in the form of God, Philippians 2:6 goes on to say that Christ “considered being equal with God not something to be grasped at.” If Jesus were God, then it would make no sense at all to say that he did not “grasp” at equality with God because no one grasps at equality with himself. Some Trinitarians say, “Well, he was not grasping for equality with the Father.” That is not what the verse says. It says Christ did not grasp at equality with God, which makes the verse nonsense if he were God.

The Greek word morphē does not refer to the essential nature of Christ in that context. If the point of the verse is to say that Jesus is God, then why not just say that? If Jesus is God, say that, don’t say he has the “essential nature of God.” Of course God has the “essential nature” of God, so why would anyone make that point? This verse does not say “Jesus being God” but rather “being in the form of God.” Paul is reminding the Philippians that Jesus represented the Father in every possible way.

From the Septuagint and their other writings, the Jews were familiar with morphē referring to the outward appearance, including the form of men and idols. To the Greeks, it also referred to the outward appearance, including the changing outward appearance of their gods and the form of statues. The only other New Testament use of morphē outside Philippians is in Mark, and there it refers to the outward appearance. Also, the words related to morphē clearly refer to an outward manifestation or appearance. The word morphē refers to an outward appearance or manifestation. Jesus Christ was in the outward appearance of God, so much so that he said, “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” Christ always did the Father’s will, and perfectly represented his Father in every way.

Just a remark as I know you wont accept it much less more but I see thing a bit differently then a lot of folks.

In Epistle to the Philippians 2:6–7, Christ’s “emptying” can be understood as both a relinquishing of status and an addition of humanity at the same time. He did not give up His divine nature; rather, He gave up the visible glory and privilege associated with it by taking on the form of a servant. The emptying happened by taking, actually by entering fully into human life and accepting the limitations, vulnerability, and obedience that came with it. So the humility is expressed in two inseparable movements: He did not cling to His exalted position, and He stepped down into our condition. One explains the attitude; the other explains the action.

 

[FreeInChrist]

"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father".

John 14:9 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. The key to understanding "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" is to know that the phrase “seen the Father” does not refer to seeing with one’s physical eyes but figuratively to “knowing the Father.” Jesus knew God, not because he lived and talked with God in heaven before his birth on earth, but because God revealed Himself more clearly to Jesus than He had to anyone else. Jesus made this clear in other teachings when he said “For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does…” (John 5:20).

In both Hebrew and Greek, words that are translated “see” throughout the Bible often mean “to know or realize.” The Hebrew word ra’ah is used for both seeing with the eyes and knowing something, or perceiving it (Genesis 16:4; Exodus 32:1; Numbers 20:29). Similarly, the Greek word horaō (ὁράω) translated “see” in John 1:18, 6:46; and 3 John 1:11, can mean “to see with the eyes” or “to see with the mind, to perceive, to know.” Even in English, one of the definitions for “see” is “to know or understand.” For example, when two people are discussing something, one might say to the other, “I see what you mean.”

The usage of “see” as it pertains to “knowing” is found in many places in the New Testament. For example, Jesus said to Philip, “…he that hath seen me hath seen the Father;…” (John 14:9). Here again the word “see” is used to indicate “knowing.” Anyone who knew Jesus (not just those who “saw” him) would know the Father. In fact, Jesus had made that clear two verses earlier when he said to Philip, “If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you know him, and have seen him” (John 14:7). In this verse, Jesus says that those who know him have “seen” the Father.

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

There's nothing in the book of Philippians that says Jesus emptied himself of his Godhood. Nothing.

What did Jesus empty himself from?

What the Scriptures say he was... the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, thus, royal blood. He humbled himself from what he was and took on the role of a servant.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Interesting how both sides say the same things.

Trinitarians say this is the Bible and if you do not accept it then you don't believe what Jesus said.

The non trinitarians say that verse was taken out of context and if you do not accept it then you don't believe the Bible.

My take is this...
The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

cc: @Runningman

“I don’t think it’s accurate to say Trinitarians only rely on bad translations, verses taken out of context, or cultural misunderstandings. The doctrine of the Trinity wasn’t built on a single proof-text, but on the cumulative weight of many passages read together. Texts like Gospel of John 1:1, Epistle to the Philippians 2:6–11, and Gospel of Matthew 28:19 show Jesus sharing in divine identity while affirming one God. Whether someone agrees with that conclusion or not, the argument comes from literary context, Greek grammar, and the way the earliest Christians worshiped and spoke about Father, Son, and Spirit.

If you believe those texts are misinterpreted, that’s a discussion we can have — but it’s stronger to engage the actual arguments rather than dismiss them as translation errors or ignorance of culture.”

As to emptying himself of his Godhood. NO!

In Epistle to the Philippians 2:6–7, Paul does not say Jesus emptied Himself of “Godhood.” The text never says He emptied Himself of anything. It simply says He “emptied Himself” — and then immediately explains how: “by taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.”

Grammatically, the emptying is defined by what follows. It is not subtraction, but addition. He did not empty Himself of divine nature; He emptied Himself by taking on servanthood and humanity.

So if someone asks, “What did He empty Himself from?”

He emptied Himself from the visible glory, status, and privilege associated with being “in the form of God,” choosing instead the lowly position of a servant and obedience to death.

 

[amazing grace]

@FreeInChrist ----- Dont you throw your Ai at me.... I have 3 postings done over time that I can use when I am wanting to. Today I wanted to. I told you when you got tto a certain point to skip that because I realize it is tediously long but you are the one who said about lack of scriptures.... but wanted you to be certain to see the Aramaic references. (end of quote)

Okay, thank you. There's nothing wrong with using AI - I also use it every now and then - but it was just SOOO much thrown at me at once that I probably responded with a little agitation - I do apologize for that.

Now, about the Aramaic - I don't think the Aramaic Bible in plain English is in the language Jesus spoke. I did a little in AI myself and it seems that the Aramaic dialect that Jesus spoke and the Syriac Peshitta dialect are distinct dialects from different regions and different time periods -- the Galilean Aramaic representing the language spoke during the time of Jesus. Galilean Aramaic was a distinct dialect of Middle Western Aramaic. The Syriac Peshitta NT translated from earlier Greek manuscripts into Aramaic emerging in final form in the 5th century AD.

I don't know how Aramaic text can differ so greatly but I looked at the reference from the George Lamsa bible John 8:20-24The most well-known Bible translated directly from Aramaic (specifically the Syriac Peshitta) is the Lamsa bible, also known as Holy Bible: From the Ancient Eastern Text by George M. Lamsa. It is translated from the Peshitta manuscripts, which serve as the standard, ancient Aramaic Bible for many Eastern churches. I don't know how Aramaic text can differ so greatly but I looked at the reference from the George Lamsa bible John 8:24-30

24I told you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins. 25The Jews said, Who are you? Jesus said to them, Even though I should begin to speak to you, 26I have many things to say and to judge concerning you; but he who sent me is true; and I speak in the world only those things which I have heard from him. 27They did not understand that he spoke to them concerning the Father. 28Again Jesus said to them, When you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will understand that I am he, and I do nothing of my own accord; but as my Father has taught me, so I speak just like him. 29And he who sent me is with me; and my Father has never left me alone, because I always do what pleases him. 30While he was speaking these words, a great many believed in him. Whereas the text you quoted had "I said unto you that you shall died in your sins, for unless you shall believe that I AM THE LIVING GOD, you shall die in your sins." and v28) When you have lifted up the SON OF MAN, then you shall know that I AM THE LIVING GOD.......identifying the SON OF MAN as GOD????? So, no, I do not trust the translation.

Do I expect you to reply to it all? Nope.... but if you chose to I would have thought as you were going through you would have found the natural break for paragraphical commenting.

BTW... I never keep people on ignore when they are making reasonable comments to others but when I cannot follow what, say maybe you, have said by someone in reply I need to know what was said.

In fact at the end of the ignore comment it says "Show ignored content" And when I click on that for you I get the message "Show hidden content by amazing grace, Runningman" and if I click on that I might get your content or I might get Runningmans... So now I keep you out here because... truth be told.... I dont know what was up with that but it has been doing it for a while between you two.

In any event.... I made my point.

Bye for now

 

[Peterlag]

“I don’t think it’s accurate to say Trinitarians only rely on bad translations, verses taken out of context, or cultural misunderstandings. The doctrine of the Trinity wasn’t built on a single proof-text, but on the cumulative weight of many passages read together. Texts like Gospel of John 1:1, Epistle to the Philippians 2:6–11, and Gospel of Matthew 28:19 show Jesus sharing in divine identity while affirming one God. Whether someone agrees with that conclusion or not, the argument comes from literary context, Greek grammar, and the way the earliest Christians worshiped and spoke about Father, Son, and Spirit.

If you believe those texts are misinterpreted, that’s a discussion we can have — but it’s stronger to engage the actual arguments rather than dismiss them as translation errors or ignorance of culture.”

As to emptying himself of his Godhood. NO!

In Epistle to the Philippians 2:6–7, Paul does not say Jesus emptied Himself of “Godhood.” The text never says He emptied Himself of anything. It simply says He “emptied Himself” — and then immediately explains how: “by taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.”

Grammatically, the emptying is defined by what follows. It is not subtraction, but addition. He did not empty Himself of divine nature; He emptied Himself by taking on servanthood and humanity.

So if someone asks, “What did He empty Himself from?”

He emptied Himself from the visible glory, status, and privilege associated with being “in the form of God,” choosing instead the lowly position of a servant and obedience to death.

John 1:1 and Philippians 2:6–11 are not understood how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

Matthew 28:19 is from a bad translation.

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

 

[mikesw]

If you are not prepared to debate a position pointed out within a thread with scripture in a Christian forum then your only purpose here is to criticize the proponents without biblical scripture as your foundation thus ending up just giving your opinion. Of course, there are times when scripture is not needed but to NEVER use it within a Christian debate? ---- yeah, your personal opinion.

I have exposed Runningman's errors plenty of times with the scriptures he introduces. If you have not learned from those errors, all you are doing is repeating the same ones.
I have brought up scriptures of the deity of Christ and evidence of that but the scriptures are glossed over and thus ineffective in debate.

Your so-called analysis of scriptures given by anyone disagreeing with the doctrine of the Trinity is more aimed at the opponent than a critical analysis of the scripture being used.

Uh. It is fine showing the errors and fallacies of unitarians when they bring up scriptures to push their ideas while denying the context. Also, for the benefit of Christians, I point out the errors of unitarian interpretation so they may know why the arguments are weak. It should be found acceptable to examine the interpretation techniques and expose the errors of the unitarian approach. Like I have noted several times, the Christadelphian assumes they have a clear understanding of "key" passages and then use that to override the testimony of the deity of Christ.
We have seen so many times and so many ways the error of generalizing the meaning of logos such that they will refuse that scriptures can exhibit metaleptical and metonymic approaches. The discussion obvious goes nowhere with unitarians since they just repeat the same problems over and over.

BTW, study hermeneutics and the rules of hermeneutics ---- a principle of interpreting difficult verses in light of clear, unambitious passages is a foundation of biblical exegesis and hermeneutics, scripture interpreting scripture.

Okay. You admit that you skip that in John 1:1-18. But beyond that, there are no clear passages that are so powerful that they blow away the passages that kill the unitarian view. I have noted that we see one-verse unitarians. The big example is taking John 17:3 as saying the Father is the only true god while denying verse 5 that shows Jesus sharing glory with the Father before his incarnation.

What are unitarians doing here? Standing up for the man of Nazareth, Jesus Christ who laid his life down for us and for God his Father raising him from the dead ensuing the promise of eternal life for those who believe and know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent.

Indeed it is just a marketing campaign since the unitarians just repeat the same stuff over and over. The question never has been whether Jesus is human. The question is about the preexistent Word that became incarnate.

What scriptures testify to the deity of Christ?
There is not one verse that calls Jesus 'God the Son'; not one verse that actually says Jesus is a god-man; not one verse which actually says we must believe Jesus is God; not one verse that says Jesus is 100%God100%man; not one verse out of app. 31,102 that says God is Triune, three persons yet one God; not one verse that actually says Jesus is God because if it's that important of a doctrine it should have been plainly and clearly taught by someone somewhere and if you believed there were any - fight for your doctrine through those scriptures instead of through criticism.

Haha. There is no reason to deny the meaning of Son of God being applied uniquely to Jesus as a title except that Jesus preexists as the Word before becoming incarnate. It is odd that unitarians normally being hyperliteralists then neglect the significance of the words Son of God. Then they jump in quickly to dismiss the way that Jesus avoids being seen as a second god, namely the Trinitarian doctrine. If you have another way of reconciling the preexisting Word being God and being incarnated as Jesus, you can start to explain why Jesus is not a separate god but the same preexistence.

Speaking for myself as a Biblical Unitarian - the purpose as in any debate forum is as opponents to a doctrine I no longer believe is Biblical and to defend monotheism .... the stance of God and his Son Jesus Christ.

I has helped the Trinitarian develop better understanding of Christ than if arguments were not attempted against the deity of Christ.

 

[Peterlag]

And all you have is this inane accusation with no real content or value.

There are only a good eight verses in the entire New Testament that can be understood to say that Jesus is God, and every one of them can either be translated in a way that supports the Biblical Unitarian position, or disputed textually, or can be explained from the use of the word “God” in the culture. In contrast, the clear verses where Jesus is said to be a “man” such as when Peter or Paul taught their audiences that Jesus was a man appointed by God are not disputed and in the context there does not seem to be any good reason those men would not have said Jesus was a God-man if in fact that is what he is.

 

[mikesw]

John 1:1 and Philippians 2:6–11 are not understood how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

Haha. I have noted the cultural context is found in Philo's logos and the Greek Mythology culture. John takes the skeleton of those beliefs and strips off the details that do not describe Jesus while adding the true way the preexistent Word both was a conscious participant in creation and now incarnated as the Son of God.

Matthew 28:19 is from a bad translation.

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

The unitarian approach is shown again. Discount verses that speak against the unitarian beliefs. But this post can be repeated ad nauseam without removing the testimony of the deity of Christ.

 

[mikesw]

There are only a good eight verses in the entire New Testament that can be understood to say that Jesus is God, and every one of them can either be translated in a way that supports the Biblical Unitarian position, or disputed textually, or can be explained from the use of the word “God” in the culture. In contrast, the clear verses where Jesus is said to be a “man” such as when Peter or Paul taught their audiences that Jesus was a man appointed by God are not disputed and in the context there does not seem to be any good reason those men would not have said Jesus was a God-man if in fact that is what he is.

John 1:1-18 shares more than eight verses. John the Baptist says Jesus preexists. I think it gets too forgetful of the content of scripture to reduce the testimony of his deity to eight.

 

[Runningman]

And the reply is that in analyzing scripture you are too hyper literal, therefore dividing and cutting scripture to your liking. So then giving scripture is pointless.

The lack of scripture in reply, I think, is not because there isn't sound contextual scriptural arguments that blow Unitarianism out of the water, but because the scripture we do, as trinitarians give, is cut to pieces.

That is precisely why I always ask you all for Scriptural evidence of your beliefs. I am not asking you all to just quote Scripture that says Jesus forgave sins, or that Jesus ascended/descended from heaven, or whatever other verses you all use to support your doctrines. I am asking you all to provide evidence that anyone in the 1st century or before, whether God or any of the prophets, believe what you do about the trinity. Otherwise, you are only providing an interpretation of something the Bible doesn't say, which is something any cultist is doing right now as we speak.

So what makes your interpretation any more credible? Let's establish credibility.

My turn:

I define God as the Father because that's what Jesus and Paul did (John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6)

Your turn:

You define God as a trinity because of what who said?