The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[JesusFan]

Again for the upteenth time.. when Jesus said 'The Father is greater than I'.. .the context is of Jesus ascending to be one with the Father not long afterwards.

So the difference is positional. Jesus also was in the flesh, while the Father was not.. so it's greater in the sense of the limitations in the flesh Jesus had. That limitation is now gone.. Jesus is resurrected and empowering individual believers and churches through the Holy Spirit, which He sent with the Father.

The President of the USA is greater than I.

A superior being? No. In a greater positional office.

Per Paul in Philippians, Jesus was in very form and status of God in heaven, as per Prologue of John stated with the Father, but willing to come to earth as a Human, and willing to accept those limitations of temp being in a subordinate position while on earth as a servant

 

[Peterlag]

Well, they need to really investigate the matter for themselves. Because evidence of His Autotheos and Aseity is throughout scripture.

John 14:9: Jesus tells Philip, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father".

Even his name Emmanuel means God with us.

Christ says in Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father".

John 14:9 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. The key to understanding "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" is to know that the phrase “seen the Father” does not refer to seeing with one’s physical eyes but figuratively to “knowing the Father.” Jesus knew God, not because he lived and talked with God in heaven before his birth on earth, but because God revealed Himself more clearly to Jesus than He had to anyone else. Jesus made this clear in other teachings when he said “For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does…” (John 5:20).

In both Hebrew and Greek, words that are translated “see” throughout the Bible often mean “to know or realize.” The Hebrew word ra’ah is used for both seeing with the eyes and knowing something, or perceiving it (Genesis 16:4; Exodus 32:1; Numbers 20:29). Similarly, the Greek word horaō (ὁράω) translated “see” in John 1:18, 6:46; and 3 John 1:11, can mean “to see with the eyes” or “to see with the mind, to perceive, to know.” Even in English, one of the definitions for “see” is “to know or understand.” For example, when two people are discussing something, one might say to the other, “I see what you mean.”

The usage of “see” as it pertains to “knowing” is found in many places in the New Testament. For example, Jesus said to Philip, “…he that hath seen me hath seen the Father;…” (John 14:9). Here again the word “see” is used to indicate “knowing.” Anyone who knew Jesus (not just those who “saw” him) would know the Father. In fact, Jesus had made that clear two verses earlier when he said to Philip, “If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you know him, and have seen him” (John 14:7). In this verse, Jesus says that those who know him have “seen” the Father.

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

Good morning @Peterlag ... I thought you had moved onto greener pastures if forum land.

You say....Or the idea that God can limit what He knows or experiences as God is also not taught or explained in Scripture.

Now, go study... do not just read.... about Jesus emptying Himself and what it meant.... Start with Phil 2:7 then hit your search engines and Ai. I wont explain it simply because I have learned that when I do the work it is then I understand....

There's nothing in the book of Philippians that says Jesus emptied himself of his Godhood. Nothing.

What did Jesus empty himself from?

What the Scriptures say he was... the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, thus, royal blood. He humbled himself from what he was and took on the role of a servant.

 

[Runningman]

I beg to differ. Again, I think it's best you just admit you do not know the topics. That's being honest with yourself. But for the record I used to think way you do when I was an Arminian when presented Classical Calvinism. I would brush it off and dismiss because of my bias lens. But if one really wants the truth, then do your due diligence and grow in the knowledge of the Lord. By doing your homework; reading, researching, challenging what you read with God's word. Now, if you just don't want to that's your prerogative. But if you have solid footing in what you believe and why you believe it, then you would have any anxiety to seeking the truth.

After I set out in attempt to destroy Calvinism, I finally read and heard the Pure Gospel of Paul for the ungodly! Nothing I bring but sin and empty hands. I have been a convinced Calvinist for decades now. Any hoot, know what you believe and why you believe it.​

You are either blatantly averting this point or just plainly refuse to accept it. The religious leaders charged Jesus with blasphemy because he was making himself equal with God. Now, this claim was punishable by death. These Jewish leaders knew exactly what Christ was claiming. You can refuse to believe this, but it is clear why they were trying to kill Jesus.

That was a called a false accusation, not something they were correctly understanding. Their motive was, of course, they wanted to pin something on Jesus that they could use to kill him with, which you seem to understand. So it is nonsense that you would suggest they rightly understand Jesus, contrary to his denials of being God. (John 10:33-36)

The Bible states in Mark 2:7 and Luke 5:21 that only God can forgive sins, a truth acknowledged by the Pharisees when questioning Jesus' authority. Other key passages include Isiah 43:25, which says God Alone blots out transgressions, and 1 John 1:7, which highlights that the blood of Jesus cleanses sin. In John 20:23, Jesus delegates authority to his apostles to announce the forgiveness of sins. Finally, we find in Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20, where he says, "Son, your sins are forgiven".

When four men bring a paralyzed man to Jesus, He says, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven". The religious leaders challenged this, saying only God can forgive sins, to which Jesus responds by healing the man to demonstrate His authority on earth to forgive sins. These miracles and forgiveness of sins signify and reveal who Jesus is and what He came to do.

@360watt was correct when he stated that God delegated authority to Jesus and the disciples to forgive sins so you have presented a moot point.

Here's a question, why do you suppose there are no examples of Jesus forgiving sins after he was taken to heaven?

And God doesn't give his glory to another. But Jesus says that he has this glory from the beginning. The apostles worshipped Jesus, this too is blasphemy if he isn't God incarnate.

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

God never gave His exclusive glory to another and there is nothing to suggest otherwise. If you're referring to God giving glory to Jesus and the disciples then that isn't the same thing as the contradiction you are suggesting.

So let's clear up at least one of your misunderstandings. If the glory Jesus got from God is God's exclusive glory that He shares with none, then why did God give His exlusive glory to the disicples? Obvious answer, this example is not about God's exclusive glory.

John 17
5And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.
22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—

Okay, I do not know why you are quoting this passage. Can you explain? Now according to you, if Jesus is a mere man and not God. Then how could he forgive sins, heal the sick, resurrect and give life to Lazarus. These powers are God's. Not man's powers. To suggest Jesus is not God incarnate there sir, you have no hope, no peace, no assurance, and definitely no Redemption/ Because Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9).

Because how could the Pharisees be correct when Jesus said they were lying about what you said they correctly understood? I think it's quite telling you need to side with the very people Jesus condemned and repeat their talking points instead of Jesus'.

 

[Peterlag]

The Pharisees did not believe Jesus was the Messiah...

The problem with Trinitarians is they also refused to accept Jesus as the Messiah to Israel and the Son of God to the Christian. So they recreate Jesus in their own mind to fit their Babylonian Greek Mythology. That makes them no better than the Jews that rejected Christ. We cannot worship a fake god or a fake Jesus of our own making or from any other fool's imagination.

 

[amazing grace]

if you deny His deity, you have false Christ, and shall die in your sins

That's not true. Since it's your claim ---- prove it.
Where does scripture say that I must believe Jesus is deity, i.e. God?

I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.” So they said to him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been telling you from the beginning.

That scripture does not say 'unless you believe I am deity you will die in your sins'. Who has Jesus been telling them he was all this time, the Son of God, the Messiah.

 

[mikesw]

That's not true. Since it's your claim ---- prove it.
Where does scripture say that I must believe Jesus is deity, i.e. God?

I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.” So they said to him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been telling you from the beginning.

That scripture does not say 'unless you believe I am deity you will die in your sins'. Who has Jesus been telling them he was all this time, the Son of God, the Messiah.

Logically the scriptures are not there to interpret so you get wiggle room to deny who Christ is. When something is as obvious as the deity of Christ, someone who is familiar with scripture should not remain ignorant of the essence of Christ.

 

[amazing grace]

Logically the scriptures are not there to interpret so you get wiggle room to deny who Christ is. When something is as obvious as the deity of Christ, someone who is familiar with scripture should not remain ignorant of the essence of Christ.

That's so true!

 

[mikesw]

That's so true!

but you miss the deity of Christ anyhow. That is why the problem of your interpretations stand out so readily.

 

[Doug Brents]

That's so true!

So now you are agreeing with the deity of Christ? I'm glad you have come to accept the Truth.

 

[mikesw]

The Pharisees did not believe Jesus was the Messiah...

The problem with Trinitarians is they also refused to accept Jesus as the Messiah to Israel and the Son of God to the Christian. So they recreate Jesus in their own mind to fit their Babylonian Greek Mythology. That makes them no better than the Jews that rejected Christ. We cannot worship a fake god or a fake Jesus of our own making or from any other fool's imagination.

Really? John's gospel is so deceived as to include Babylonian Greek Mythology into it? So you are saying that although such mythology has insurmountable deviation from John's deity of Christ that such mythology still influences him. That sounds like the argument of an atheist, not a follower of Christ.

 

[amazing grace]

but you miss the deity of Christ anyhow. That is why the problem of your interpretations stand out so readily.

Your interpretations also stand out so readily --- Oh but wait - I just realized you rarely ever use scripture at all!

 

[amazing grace]

So now you are agreeing with the deity of Christ? I'm glad you have come to accept the Truth.

No, and you know I'm not.

Truth? Jesus of Nazareth was/is a man attested to you by God --- The Son of God, the Messiah whose God and Father is our God and Father.

 

[Doug Brents]

No, and you know I'm not.

Truth? Jesus of Nazareth was/is a man attested to you by God --- The Son of God, the Messiah whose God and Father is our God and Father.

You are the one that said Mike's statement was true. And the statement you agreed with promoted the deity of Jesus. You have now been caught in a contradiction of your own beliefs.

 

[mikesw]

Your interpretations also stand out so readily --- Oh but wait - I just realized you rarely ever use scripture at all!

The lack of consistent use of scriptures is that the unitarians disregard the actual meaning of scripture. It would be like me giving a hammer to a baby. The baby can only harm things, not fix things. I mainly point out the approaches of interpretation by the unitarians -- the hyperliteralism and neglect of context (even verses close together).

 

[amazing grace]

You are the one that said Mike's statement was true. And the statement you agreed with promoted the deity of Jesus. You have now been caught in a contradiction of your own beliefs.

I replied to a snarky comment with another sarcastic comment --- that's all it was.