The Holy Spirit stated can be grieved, can speak, can indwell, part of the creation account, called God, not just force like electricity, nor just "power of God"
The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning
- Thread starter Runningman
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Runningman
Active Member
Correct, but the Holy Spirit isn't a third person. The Bible explicitly defines the Father as God who is a Spirit (John 4:23,24)
I believe the Father is the Holy Spirit. In other cases the holy spirit isn't capitalized and should be seen as the power of God.
synergy
Active Member
You also want to shamelessly portray the Father and the Holy Spirit as being on non-speaking terms? You guys never stop reaching new lows.
In John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13–15, the Holy Spirit speaks what He hears from the Father
“The Holy Spirit… will teach you all things…
He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak.”
Here the Spirit is explicitly said to hear and then speak, which presupposes communication with the Father.
Peterlag
Active Member
I would like to know what God is. Who is the Trinity?
Folks on here say all morning and night that the "Father" is one part, but the word "Father" is a name... a title. You can't say there's three of me because I have these names and titles. There are not three of me because I'm described as a "father" and another being of me is a "son" and another being an "uncle."
Now I know you do not believe you are separate creatures all in one because you're a "mother" and a "sister" and a "cousin." Yet you're going to continue to tell me that the word "Father" is God and then act like I'm the stupid one.
Can anyone explain who or what God is? I will start the Trinity for you.
1.) Jesus
2.) Holy Spirit
3.) What is the third part_________
Folks on here say all morning and night that the "Father" is one part, but the word "Father" is a name... a title. You can't say there's three of me because I have these names and titles. There are not three of me because I'm described as a "father" and another being of me is a "son" and another being an "uncle."
Now I know you do not believe you are separate creatures all in one because you're a "mother" and a "sister" and a "cousin." Yet you're going to continue to tell me that the word "Father" is God and then act like I'm the stupid one.
Can anyone explain who or what God is? I will start the Trinity for you.
1.) Jesus
2.) Holy Spirit
3.) What is the third part_________
Doug Brents
Active Member
But you do have a body, a spirit, and a soul. All of these are YOU, but they are not all the same thing. Just as the Father (Soul), the Son (body), and the Spirit (spirit) are all one but not the same thing.
Peterlag
Active Member
The soul and body are something that is real. The word father is not. It's a name... a title. The fact that you can't see that is troubling.
Doug Brents
Active Member
If the Father is not real, then who/what was speaking in Matt 3:17, Mark 1:11, and Luke 3:22? The Father is a real person. Sure the word "father" is a title, but it is the title we use to distinguish Him from the other two parts of God. Just as "the Spirit" is not a name, but a description we give to that part of God.
All 3 Persons appeared from the start in Genesis, as the father was there in the beginning, as was the Spirit, and the Son came in form like a man to speak to Abraham, be the Angel of the Lord etc
Peterlag
Active Member
You are not a father. You are a human. If you were to give blood. It would be listed as human blood. Not father blood because father is not a living creature. It's sad that you can't understand that.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Human describes WHAT kind of being I am. Father describes WHO I am to some people (my children). Human applies to blood because it is the only one of those two (human and father) that has any influence on its usefulness. If being a father influenced the usefulness or effectiveness of my blood, then that adjective would be needed for blood as well. You are making an erroneous and flawed argument.
God refers to what kind of being He is. Father describes who He is within God, just as Son describes who Jesus is within God, and Holy Spirit describes who He is within God.
Peterlag
Active Member
Going by your logic. Then I'm many persons. I'm a father, brother, uncle, cousin, husband, son, etc. There is not one of me. I am many.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Again, you deliberately misunderstand. You are one being, with many parts (body, soul, spirit), and many roles/positions/authorities. Your name may be Pete, that is who you are. Your role to some is father, to others it may be brother, to others it may be uncle, etc. You are not father to your siblings (those to whom you are brother), nor are you brother to your children. But you are still Pete, just one.
God is One (Father, Son, and Spirit), just as you are one (body, spirit, and soul). "The Father" is simply the name we use to differentiate that part of God from the part of God that is "the Son", and the part of God that is "the Spirit".
Peterlag
Active Member
I am a human. Not a father. My parts are flesh, blood, bones... etc. Not father, son, uncle.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Yet again, you fail to comprehend. But as one of my former employer's said, "I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you."
Runningman
Active Member
Jesus also identified the Father as the Holy Spirit in John 4:23,24. There is no disconnect with things speaking and receiving instructions from God. Might not make sense to non-believers such as yourself, but but if the rocks can cry out at God's command, then why wouldn't a spirit by able to speak or act as a medium of some sort for God's words?
Peterlag
Active Member
Here's the bottom line. You can't tell me what the third part of the Trinity is. So you want to pretend that it's a father. And tell me I'm stupid for not believing it.
so God does not exist because of the Father being distinct from the Holy Spirit within the Godhead. That is what I hear from Peterlag.
synergy
Active Member
John 4:23–24 does not identify the Father as the Holy Spirit but states that God is spirit, describing God’s nature, not merging two distinct persons into one as your heresy is attempting to do. You are confusing what God is with who God is and that is a categorical error that unitarians continuously make. Scripture consistently distinguishes the Father and the Holy Spirit as personal agents who speak, send, are sent, and relate to one another (e.g., John 14:16–17; 15:26; Acts 13:2), which would be meaningless if they were merely the same person acting as a “medium.” Appealing to rocks crying out (Luke 19:40) is a false analogy. Impersonal creation responding to divine command is not comparable to personal, reciprocal speech, will, and instruction among divine persons.
Peterlag
Active Member
"The doctrine of the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine... it's the product of theological reflection." - The Christian Doctrine of God Trinitarian. E. Brunner, 1949, p. 236.
“Trinity is not a biblical doctrine" - New Bible Dictionary, J. Douglas, F. Bruce, 1982, p. 1298.
“Scholars generally agree that there is no doctrine of the Trinity as such in either the Old or the New Testament” - The Harper Collins Encyclopedia of Catholicism, 1995, p. 564.
“The Bible has no statements or speculations concerning a trinitary deity." - Encyclopedia Britannica, volume 12, p. 383, 1979.
“Three coequal partners in the Godhead cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the Bible. It's important to avoid reading the Trinity into places where it does not appear." - Oxford Companion to the Bible, Bruce Metzger, M. Coogan, p. 782-3.
“The doctrine of the Trinity is not present in biblical thought... it goes beyond, and even distorts, what the Bible says about God.” - A Contemporary Interpretation of the Trinity - God in Three Persons: Professor M. Erickson, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, p. 12, 20.
“The belief (in a Trinity-God) was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief." - Dictionary of the Bible, 1995, (trinitarian) J. Mckenzie, p. 899.
“The doctrine of the Trinity was formulated in the post-biblical period." - Harper’s Bible Dictionary, 1985.
“In the New Testament there is no direct suggestion of a doctrine of the Trinity." - An Encyclopedia of Religion, V. Ferm (ed.), 1945, p. 344.
“No passage of Scripture discusses the threeness of God." - The New International Version. Disciples Study Bible, p. 173, note for Mt. 3:16.
“The Bible does not state that there is one God who exists in three persons” - Basic Theology, Professor C. Ryrie, p. 89.
“The Bible does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity” - Christian Doctrine, Professor S. Guthrie, Columbia Theological Seminary, 1994, p. 92.
“The doctrine of the Trinity cannot be justified on the basis of Scripture. Indeed it's hard to imagine Jesus speaking in such terms" - An Outline of Biblical Theology, Professor M. Burrows, Yale Divinity School, p. 81.
“The doctrine of God as existing in three persons and one substance is not demonstrable by scriptural proofs." - Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, 1898.
“There is in the Old Testament no indication of interior distinctions in the Godhead. And there is no doctrine of the Trinity in the New Testament” - The Known Bible and its Defense, Reverend M. Hembre, 1933, p. 25.
“Trinity is not a biblical doctrine" - New Bible Dictionary, J. Douglas, F. Bruce, 1982, p. 1298.
“Scholars generally agree that there is no doctrine of the Trinity as such in either the Old or the New Testament” - The Harper Collins Encyclopedia of Catholicism, 1995, p. 564.
“The Bible has no statements or speculations concerning a trinitary deity." - Encyclopedia Britannica, volume 12, p. 383, 1979.
“Three coequal partners in the Godhead cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the Bible. It's important to avoid reading the Trinity into places where it does not appear." - Oxford Companion to the Bible, Bruce Metzger, M. Coogan, p. 782-3.
“The doctrine of the Trinity is not present in biblical thought... it goes beyond, and even distorts, what the Bible says about God.” - A Contemporary Interpretation of the Trinity - God in Three Persons: Professor M. Erickson, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, p. 12, 20.
“The belief (in a Trinity-God) was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief." - Dictionary of the Bible, 1995, (trinitarian) J. Mckenzie, p. 899.
“The doctrine of the Trinity was formulated in the post-biblical period." - Harper’s Bible Dictionary, 1985.
“In the New Testament there is no direct suggestion of a doctrine of the Trinity." - An Encyclopedia of Religion, V. Ferm (ed.), 1945, p. 344.
“No passage of Scripture discusses the threeness of God." - The New International Version. Disciples Study Bible, p. 173, note for Mt. 3:16.
“The Bible does not state that there is one God who exists in three persons” - Basic Theology, Professor C. Ryrie, p. 89.
“The Bible does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity” - Christian Doctrine, Professor S. Guthrie, Columbia Theological Seminary, 1994, p. 92.
“The doctrine of the Trinity cannot be justified on the basis of Scripture. Indeed it's hard to imagine Jesus speaking in such terms" - An Outline of Biblical Theology, Professor M. Burrows, Yale Divinity School, p. 81.
“The doctrine of God as existing in three persons and one substance is not demonstrable by scriptural proofs." - Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, 1898.
“There is in the Old Testament no indication of interior distinctions in the Godhead. And there is no doctrine of the Trinity in the New Testament” - The Known Bible and its Defense, Reverend M. Hembre, 1933, p. 25.
Runningman
Active Member
Yes John 4:23,24 does identify the Father as the Spirit.
Here's how it works:
1. The true worshippers worship the Father in spirit and truth
2. Those who worship God worship in spirit and truth
3. Since only the true worshippers worship the Father, then the Father is the who is identified as God, who is Himself a Spirit
4. This means the Father is the Holy Spirit.
John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”
Once you realize this, a lot of things are going to start making sense. For example, it'll start making sense why the Father and Son are never in the same room as the "Holy Spirit" in your trinity. Why they are never speaking to one another, why the Father is not mentioned when the Holy Spirit is mentioned, etc.
In other contexts, the holy spirit is a thing because it's an empowerment that Jesus received after God took him to heaven and was subsequently given to the disciples in the upper room on Pentecost.
Acts 2
33Exalted, then, to the right hand of God, He has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.
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