The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[Peterlag]

It could have been almost anything. But since there is no qualification in Scripture to what is included in "His Image", it seems to be all inclusive. We are like Him in almost every way. Sure there are some exceptions: we are not omniscient, we are not omnipresent, we are not omnipotent, (these things are reserved for deity , and we are not deity). But we are triune, as He is (as noted in previous post). And we do have His capacity for love, empathy, desire for unity with others, etc.

It is worthy of note the multiple restatements of our creation in His image. This indicates that this was significant, and that the lack of anything else being similarly stated to be in His image means that nothing else was made in His image before man was, and nothing was made in His image after man was.

So if there is no verse in the Scriptures stating God is “omniscient” meaning He knows the past, the present, and the future. Then why do so many Christians believe God is omniscient?
The answer is: Ancient Greek Mythology and Philosophy.

 

[Doug Brents]

So if there is no verse in the Scriptures stating God is “omniscient” meaning He knows the past, the present, and the future. Then why do so many Christians believe God is omniscient?
The answer is: Ancient Greek Mythology and Philosophy.

Psalm 139:1-4, 1 John 3:20, Isaiah 46:9-10, and Matthew 10:29-30, Prov 15:3, Jer 1:5.
Through these verses we can see that God knows all of the past, the future, the present, our inmost thoughts and feelings, etc.

 

[JesusFan]

Moses was called God and Man as well. Moses isn't the Second Person of anything and didn't incarnate, but did dwell and live among us. If Moses can be called God and Man without being God and without being in a trinity, then there isn't a reason why Jesus is God either.

Exodus 7
1The LORD answered Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.

Diffrence was that jesus claimed to have come down from heaven, Moses was born as a normal human

 

[Alter2Ego]

Runningman:

I asked you to quote scripture that says Jesus is a man "right now," in this day and age. The scripture at Acts 2 is merely telling us he was a human in the first Century AD and has nothing to do with "right now."

The Bible indicates Jesus is the first of Jehovah's created angels.


"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." (Colossians 1:15 -- New International Version)

Colossians 1 NIV

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. (Colossians 1:15 -- English Standard Version)

Colossians 1 ESV

As I said before, decades after Jesus was taken to heaven they kept right on calling him a man.

Is the man Jesus Christ our mediator RIGHT NOW?

1 Timothy 2
5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

We also know that John the Baptist defined the Lamb of God as a man:

John 1
29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is He of whom I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because He was before me.’

We know the same Lamb who John identified as a man is still a man in heaven.

Revelation 21
22But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

So we know Jesus was born a human, died a human, resurrected as a human, was taken up into the sky as a human, and was continued to be called a human decades afterwards right up until the present day.

So I will ask you where do you see any evidence that Jesus isn't a man right now? Also, if Jesus isn't a man, where did his human body go?

Runningman:

You debunked yourself in the very first paragraph of your above reply. Look at the words that I enlarged in blue.

 

[Alter2Ego]

As I said before, decades after Jesus was taken to heaven they kept right on calling him a man.

Is the man Jesus Christ our mediator RIGHT NOW?

1 Timothy 2
5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Runningman:

1 Timothy 2:5 is not saying Jesus is a man right now, as you claim. Jesus' role as a human sacrifice qualified him as Mediator between God and men. It was his shed blood as a perfect man that enabled him to undo what Adam (a once perfect human) lost. That's why Jesus is referred to as the "last Adam," because he substituted in for the first Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:45​

So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=1+Corinthians+15%3A45&link=%2Fresults%2FE%2Fbible%3Fsort%3Drel%26q%3D1%2520Corinthians%252015%253A45

Notice that the verse says he became a life-giving SPIRIT. A spirit person is not flesh and blood. Also, because he substituted in for the first Adam by shedding his blood to save us from Adamic death (permanent death) Jesus also became our eternal human father in that sense.

Isaiah 9:6​

For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=Isaiah+9%3A6&link=%2Fresults%2FE%2Fbible%3Fsort%3Drel%26q%3D

 

[Runningman]

Diffrence was that jesus claimed to have come down from heaven, Moses was born as a normal human

Wanna see if we can find anyone else to have said to have come from above? Read John 3. Jesus says everyone must be born from above to see the kingdom of God.

 

[Runningman]

Runningman:

You debunked yourself in the very first paragraph of your above reply. Look at the words that I enlarged in blue.

How does Paul and everyone else only recognizing Jesus as a man debunk Jesus being only a man?

 

[Runningman]

Runningman:

1 Timothy 2:5 is not saying Jesus is a man right now, as you claim. Jesus' role as a human sacrifice qualified him as Mediator between God and men. It was his shed blood as a perfect man that enabled him to undo what Adam (a once perfect human) lost. That's why Jesus is referred to as the "last Adam," because he substituted in for the first Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:45​

So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=1+Corinthians+15%3A45&link=%2Fresults%2FE%2Fbible%3Fsort%3Drel%26q%3D1%2520Corinthians%252015%253A45

Notice that the verse says he became a life-giving SPIRIT. A spirit person is not flesh and blood. Also, because he substituted in for the first Adam by shedding his blood to save us from Adamic death (permanent death) Jesus also became our eternal human father in that sense.

Isaiah 9:6​

For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=Isaiah+9%3A6&link=%2Fresults%2FE%2Fbible%3Fsort%3Drel%26q%3D

So, contrary to Paul stating Jesus is a man mediating between God and men, you say he isn't. Jesus isn't a mediator in your religion then. You may have understood Jesus as not being God, well done, but I see a major issue with your other fundamental beliefs.

In the future judgement, will God judge the world with a man named Jesus? If yes, then Jesus is still a man. If not, the Bible is false. Unless you have some weird beliefs about Jesus being a man, not being a man, and then being a man again. Otherwise, Jesus being a man is a sound and coherent belief. Even trinitarians tend to agree with that.

Acts 17
31For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

 

[Alter2Ego]

Correct, civic. According to Colossians 1:15, Jesus Christ was the first of Jehovah's created angels. Thereafter, Jehovah God--who happens to be the power behind all creation--proceeded to create all other things through the pre-human Jesus.


"for through him [Jesus aka the Word] God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can’t see— such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him." (Colossians 1:16 -- New Living Translation)

Colossians 1 NLT

If everything was created through Jesus (aka the Word) and he was created (as you claim) then Jesus would have had to create himself through himself. That's typical JW Arian illogic in full display and makes everyone's head spin.

synergy:

You're not paying attention to what I told civic. At the second sentence in my above comment to civic, I said: "According to Colossians 1:15, Jesus Christ was the first of Jehovah's created angels."

Jesus did not exist until God Jehovah created him. Below is Colossians 1:15. Focus on the words bolded in blue.

Colossians 1:15​

"He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;"

 

[Alter2Ego]

Runningman:

1 Timothy 2:5 is not saying Jesus is a man right now, as you claim. Jesus' role as a human sacrifice qualified him as Mediator between God and men. It was his shed blood as a perfect man that enabled him to undo what Adam (a once perfect human) lost. That's why Jesus is referred to as the "last Adam," because he substituted in for the first Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:45​

So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=1+Corinthians+15%3A45&link=%2Fresults%2FE%2Fbible%3Fsort%3Drel%26q%3D1%2520Corinthians%252015%253A45

Notice that the verse says he became a life-giving SPIRIT. A spirit person is not flesh and blood. Also, because he substituted in for the first Adam by shedding his blood to save us from Adamic death (permanent death) Jesus also became our eternal human father in that sense.

Isaiah 9:6​

For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=Isaiah+9%3A6&link=%2Fresults%2FE%2Fbible%3Fsort%3Drel%26q%3D

So, contrary to Paul stating Jesus is a man mediating between God and men, you say he isn't. Jesus isn't a mediator in your religion then. You may have understood Jesus as not being God, well done, but I see a major issue with your other fundamental beliefs.

In the future judgement, will God judge the world with a man named Jesus? If yes, then Jesus is still a man. If not, the Bible is false. Unless you have some weird beliefs about Jesus being a man, not being a man, and then being a man again. Otherwise, Jesus being a man is a sound and coherent belief. Even trinitarians tend to agree with that.

Acts 17
31For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

Runningman:

Don't try to twist Paul's comments, because Paul was not saying that Jesus is a human "right now," as you persist in believing. Paul was saying that Jesus used his sacrificial death--as a human--to mediate for us with Jehovah the Father. But the mediating activities are occurring in heaven where Jesus now resides. Scripture says Jesus offered himself in death ONE TIME, then he returned to his Father (Jehovah) in heaven where he presented his sin offering. That sin offering happens to be Jesus himself.

Hebrews 9:24​

"For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, so that he now appears before God on our behalf."

Hebrews 9:25​

"This was not done to offer himself often, as when the high priest enters into the holy place from year to year with blood that is not his own."

Hebrews 9:26​

"Otherwise, he would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to do away with sin through the sacrifice of himself.

1 Corinthians 15 NKJV

Hebrews 9:24 makes it abundantly clear that Jesus is in heaven where "he now appears before God on our behalf." Verse 26 confirms that he has presented his sin offering to the Almighty--"the sacrifice of himself."

Now, if you want to keep believing that Jesus is still a man "right now," despite the fact scripture says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God--and flesh and blood certainly would not survive in heaven--go ahead and make yourself happy arguing against scriptural correction.



"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption." (1 Corinthians 15:50 -- New King James Version)

 

[Runningman]

Runningman:

Don't try to twist Paul's comments, because Paul was not saying that Jesus is a human "right now," as you persist in believing. Paul was saying that Jesus used his sacrificial death--as a human--to mediate for us with Jehovah the Father. But the mediating activities are occurring in heaven where Jesus now resides. Scripture says Jesus offered himself in death ONE TIME, then he returned to his Father (Jehovah) in heaven where he presented his sin offering. That sin offering happens to be Jesus himself.

Hebrews 9:24​

"For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, so that he now appears before God on our behalf."

Hebrews 9:25​

"This was not done to offer himself often, as when the high priest enters into the holy place from year to year with blood that is not his own."

Hebrews 9:26​

"Otherwise, he would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to do away with sin through the sacrifice of himself.

1 Corinthians 15 NKJV

Hebrews 9:24 makes it abundantly clear that Jesus is in heaven where "he now appears before God on our behalf." Verse 26 confirms that he has presented his sin offering to the Almighty--"the sacrifice of himself."

Now, if you want to keep believing that Jesus is still a man "right now," despite the fact scripture says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God--and flesh and blood certainly would not survive in heaven--go ahead and make yourself happy arguing against scriptural correction.



"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption." (1 Corinthians 15:50 -- New King James Version)

Jesus' physical ascension to heaven where he resides as a man and was seen standing on his own two feet by Steven (Acts 8) does not relate to the context of "flesh and blood" not inheriting the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is already within you, I hope, and it comes not with site or observation. The kingdom of God is a status, not a destination. Does that make sense?

Your NWT agrees.

Luke 17 (NWT)
21 nor will people say, ‘See here!’ or, ‘There!’ For look! the Kingdom of God is in your midst.”

 

[amazing grace]

Diffrence was that jesus claimed to have come down from heaven, Moses was born as a normal human

If Mary were here she would probably let you know pretty quick that gave birth and that her son was born as a normal human being!

 

[Alter2Ego]

Runningman:

Don't try to twist Paul's comments, because Paul was not saying that Jesus is a human "right now," as you persist in believing. Paul was saying that Jesus used his sacrificial death--as a human--to mediate for us with Jehovah the Father. But the mediating activities are occurring in heaven where Jesus now resides. Scripture says Jesus offered himself in death ONE TIME, then he returned to his Father (Jehovah) in heaven where he presented his sin offering. That sin offering happens to be Jesus himself.

Hebrews 9:24​

"For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, so that he now appears before God on our behalf."

Hebrews 9:25​

"This was not done to offer himself often, as when the high priest enters into the holy place from year to year with blood that is not his own."

Hebrews 9:26​

"Otherwise, he would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to do away with sin through the sacrifice of himself.

1 Corinthians 15 NKJV

Hebrews 9:24 makes it abundantly clear that Jesus is in heaven where "he now appears before God on our behalf." Verse 26 confirms that he has presented his sin offering to the Almighty--"the sacrifice of himself."

Now, if you want to keep believing that Jesus is still a man "right now," despite the fact scripture says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God--and flesh and blood certainly would not survive in heaven--go ahead and make yourself happy arguing against scriptural correction.



"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption." (1 Corinthians 15:50 -- New King James Version)

Jesus' physical ascension to heaven where he resides as a man and was seen standing on his own two feet by Steven (Acts 8) does not relate to the context of "flesh and blood" not inheriting the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is already within you, I hope, and it comes not with site or observation. The kingdom of God is a status, not a destination. Does that make sense?

Your NWT agrees.

Luke 17 (NWT)
21 nor will people say, ‘See here!’ or, ‘There!’ For look! the Kingdom of God is in your midst.”

Jesus' physical ascension to heaven? You are out of your mind!

Tell you what, Runningman, go and read 1 Corinthians 15:50. Read it dozens of times if necessary, and perhaps, by some miracle, it will sink in that physical beings CANNOT survive in the spirit realm aka heaven.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus' physical ascension to heaven? You are out of your mind!

Tell you what, Runningman, go and read 1 Corinthians 15:50. Read it dozens of times if necessary, and perhaps, by some miracle, it will sink in that physical beings CANNOT survive in the spirit realm aka heaven.

1 Corinthians 15 is what I am quoting too. The resurrected body is raised imperishable (1 Corinthians 15:42) and with God all things are possible. Anyway, I don't really mind if you think Jesus is not a man in heaven. I don't think that's a salvation issue, misunderstanding something isn't the same thing as willfully opposing it. I do see your point, but I disagree that the "kingdom of God" is the same thing as heaven. If you want to see heaven, just look up. That thing we call outer space is heaven. It's where the Bible says Jesus ascended to, not in a spiritual sense, but as in moving from one spatial location to another relative to the earth and sky and it mirrors the rapture doctrine. Don't ask me how that works, ask the Father.

 

[mikesw]

Wanna see if we can find anyone else to have said to have come from above? Read John 3. Jesus says everyone must be born from above to see the kingdom of God.

uh. maybe you have heard that Nicodemus starts a man and thus never came down from heaven. Stop glossing over details. I know you are trying hard to figure things out.

 

[Peterlag]

Psalm 139:1-4, 1 John 3:20, Isaiah 46:9-10, and Matthew 10:29-30, Prov 15:3, Jer 1:5.
Through these verses we can see that God knows all of the past, the future, the present, our inmost thoughts and feelings, etc.

Let's just take the first one for an example. It's the same story with the trinity whereby you read into it what you want it to say and not what is there. The fact that Gods knows us so well does not mean He knows the future. It just means He knows us well. Even I know 100 percent what a guy is going to do based on what I tell him and I'm not God.

 

[mikesw]

Let's just take the first one for an example. It's the same story with the trinity whereby you read into it what you want it to say and not what is there. The fact that Gods knows us so well does not mean He knows the future. It just means He knows us well. Even I know 100 percent what a guy is going to do based on what I tell him and I'm not God.

Really? Maybe instead I want God to be the way that scripture tells us. Then a unitarian comes around and says the scripture does not have its obvious meaning.

 

[Runningman]

uh. maybe you have heard that Nicodemus starts a man and thus never came down from heaven. Stop glossing over details. I know you are trying hard to figure things out.

Jesus saying "you must be born from above" wasn't him making a moot point. Spiritual birth from "above" refers to the same place Jesus was spiritually born from. That's the way Jesus descended from heaven.

 

[Runningman]

Really? Maybe instead I want God to be the way that scripture tells us. Then a unitarian comes around and says the scripture does not have its obvious meaning.

You seem to want to believe God is the way the Bible presents Him, but you hold on to too many assumptions and philosophical ideas that you tend to interpret God around. I think if you just simply take the Bible for what it says at face value you won't have any issues understanding Scripture the way it represents itself.

 

[Peterlag]

The Doctrine of the Trinity is not taught anywhere in the Bible...

This should be all the evidence any normal person would need to understand that the Trinity is not Biblical. Some of the Bullshit I have heard over the years are...

• It's there.
• It's a mystery.
• You need to be born again to see it.
• God did not mean for us to understand.
• Humans cannot understand the things of God.
• It's hidden because God had to keep it a secret.
• You have to find all the pieces... hints and clues.
• You need to ask the Holy Spirit to show it to you.