dwight92070
Active Member
The last time I checked, that goes two ways.
The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning
- Thread starter Runningman
- Start date
Doug Brents
Active Member
Yes, Jesus was born of a woman. But His spirit was not created in the instant that He was conceived (as it is with every other human being). Jesus' spirit came from Heaven to inhabit the body made for Him by the Holy Spirit. His spirit existed before He was born (otherwise He could not say that before Abraham was born He exited), and His spirit was there with God (and was God) being responsible for creating everything that was created.
The Holy Spirit is not the same as the Father. Notice that when Jesus was baptized, the voice came from Heaven, while the dove descended like a dove. Here you have all three of the persons of God present and depicted at the same time.
dwight92070
Active Member
I would like to know whether Runningham or Peterlag or any of the other anti-Trinitarians and anti-"Jesus is God" posters here, worship Jesus or not.
1. If they do, and yet still believe that Jesus is not God, then they are committing idolatry.
2. If they don't, then they are contradicting what many believers in Jesus in the Bible- did, i.e. the Bible tells us that they worshiped Him.
So if they are in the #1 category, they are idolaters.
If they are in the #2 category, then they are rejecting the example set by many of Jesus' followers - and even the angels of God.
Either way they contradict the Bible and disobey God.
If they ignore this question, then they're not willing to face the error in their false belief.
1. If they do, and yet still believe that Jesus is not God, then they are committing idolatry.
2. If they don't, then they are contradicting what many believers in Jesus in the Bible- did, i.e. the Bible tells us that they worshiped Him.
So if they are in the #1 category, they are idolaters.
If they are in the #2 category, then they are rejecting the example set by many of Jesus' followers - and even the angels of God.
Either way they contradict the Bible and disobey God.
If they ignore this question, then they're not willing to face the error in their false belief.
amazing grace
Active Member
We are to honor the Son just as we honor the Father --- whoever doesn't honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
I would relate that to worship. ^^^^^^ Since we do not worship Jesus AS the one true God then we are not committing idolatry.
The most common Greek word used for worship is proskyneō - 1. to kiss the hand (towards) one, in token of reverence; 2. among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence; 3. in the NT by keeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication: a. used of homage shown to men and being of superior rank - to the Jewish high priest, to God, to Christ, to heavenly beings, to demons. [Strong's #G4352]
The Greek word for worship given ONLY to God, distinguishing it from reverence for others, is latreia, meaning divine service or worship, while proskyneo means to bow down/show homage and can refer to humans or angels, though it's also used for God. In the New Testament, latreuo (the verb form) is used in contexts emphasizing serving God alone (e.g., Luke 4:8), highlighting the unique, devotion due only to the divine. [Strong's #G4352; #G3000]
Luke 4:8 uses both but the serving/service is due God only.
And Jesus answered him, “It is written, “‘You shall worship (proskyneo) the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve (latreuo).’”
And, honestly --- idolatry would be worshipping something or someone AS God who is NOT God.
Peterlag
Active Member
WOW... what a story and none of it is true.
dwight92070
Active Member
So the wise men worshiped Him, His disciples worshiped Him, the one healed leper returned to worship Him, Thomas worshiped Him, Paul worshiped Him, God called Him God and commanded the angels to worship Him, in Revelation 5:8-12, the four living creatures, the 24 elders, and multiplied trillions of angels worship Him, then in Revelation 5:13-14, every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them - worshiped He who sits on the throne AND the Lamb - that's Jesus ...
but you still don't get it and refuse to "honor the Son just as you honor the Father." We honor the Father as God - likewise we are to honor Jesus as God.
but you still don't get it and refuse to "honor the Son just as you honor the Father." We honor the Father as God - likewise we are to honor Jesus as God.
dwight92070
Active Member
Liar - the Bible says it's true.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Jesus wasn't born of a woman? Hmm.
Peterlag
Active Member
No that is the part I said he was. All the other stuff and I mean all that you wrote in that last post is a nice story but all of it (100 percent) is a made-up story.
Peterlag
Active Member
It's not the Bible that says any of it is true. It's your view of the Bible that thinks it's true. Every single verse quoted can be seen in a different light.
dwight92070
Active Member
To Peterlag,
Doug said:
Yes, Jesus was born of a woman. But His spirit was not created in the instant that He was conceived (as it is with every other human being). Jesus' spirit came from Heaven to inhabit the body made for Him by the Holy Spirit. His spirit existed before He was born (otherwise He could not say that before Abraham was born He exited), and His spirit was there with God (and was God) being responsible for creating everything that was created.
The Holy Spirit is not the same as the Father. Notice that when Jesus was baptized, the voice came from Heaven, while the dove descended like a dove. Here you have all three of the persons of God present and depicted at the same time.
Dwight: Let's take it phrase by phrase. You have agreed that Jesus was born of a woman.
Doug said: "But His spirit was not created in the instant that He was conceived (as it is with every other human being)."
John the Baptist tells us that Jesus pre-existed. Luke 1:30: "After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me." This is even more clear since Jesus was born about six months after John, yet Jesus existed before John. Luke 1:57 says that Elizabeth gave birth to a son, and in verse 63, they named him John. Then after that in Luke 2 we see the events that lead up to the birth of Jesus: The census, Joseph and Mary going to Bethlehem, where she actually gives birth to Jesus in verse 7.
Jesus Himself tells us He pre-existed:
Doug already quoted John 8:58 "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham came into being, I AM." When Jesus said this, the Jews took up stones to throw at him, so it's obvious that they understood exactly what He was saying: that is that not only did He exist before Abraham, but that He was Yahweh Himself.
Jesus tells us a 2nd time that He pre-existed in John 17:5 "Now Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
So how did He exist before He was born? Well certainly not in a fleshly body, so He had to have existed as a Spirit. John identifies Him as the Word who was with God and was God and who existed in the beginning. Of course He existed before His physical birth - He was God and God has always existed.
As Doug said, His Spirit was not created at His conception. In fact His Spirit always existed. The only part of Him that was created was His body, inside Mary's womb.
Doug said, "Jesus' Spirit came from heaven to inhabit the body created for Him by the Holy Spirit."
This is confirmed by the angel of the Lord speaking to Joseph in a dream in Matthew 1:20:
"... behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit."
Doug said: "and His Spirit was there with God, and was God, being responsible for creating everything that was created."
This is confirmed in several places.
John 1:3 "All things came into being through Him (i.e. the Word, which is Jesus - vs. 14), and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."
Colossians 1:16 "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities - all things have been created through Him and for Him."
Then in Revelation 5:13, we see every created thing worshiping Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb (Jesus). Notice Jesus is not included in "every created thing", because He was uncreated, i.e. He always was. Not only that but all created things and persons, worshiped Jesus and His Father. God strictly forbade all men to worship anyone or anything thing except Him, yet He is perfectly okay with all men worshiping Jesus. Why? Because He is Him!!!
Doug said, "The Holy Spirit is not the same as the Father."
I believe Doug is half-correct here. The Holy Spirit is not the Father. That is true, but the Scripture reveals to us that, at the same time, the Holy Spirit IS the Father. He is not the Father, but He also IS the Father.
In Acts 5:3-4, Peter uses the terms "Holy Spirit" and "God" interchangeably - equating the two. And of course God IS the Father. Therefore the Holy Spirit IS the Father at the same time He is NOT the Father.
Herein lies one of the mysteries of the Trinity, and of course those who disagree with us, mock us for speaking of the mystery of the Trinity.
But the apostle John himself stated this mystery:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (that is separate distinct Beings), and the Word was God (that is the Same Being).
So Doug was essentially 100% correct and Biblical.
Peterlag: It's sad that I have to take you by the hand and walk you through the Scriptures, so you can see the truth. You should be able to see that truth yourself, especially since you claim to be a mature student of the Bible. So either The Watchtower or your own twisting of the Scripture has left you where you are: confused and believing many lies.
Doug said:
Yes, Jesus was born of a woman. But His spirit was not created in the instant that He was conceived (as it is with every other human being). Jesus' spirit came from Heaven to inhabit the body made for Him by the Holy Spirit. His spirit existed before He was born (otherwise He could not say that before Abraham was born He exited), and His spirit was there with God (and was God) being responsible for creating everything that was created.
The Holy Spirit is not the same as the Father. Notice that when Jesus was baptized, the voice came from Heaven, while the dove descended like a dove. Here you have all three of the persons of God present and depicted at the same time.
Dwight: Let's take it phrase by phrase. You have agreed that Jesus was born of a woman.
Doug said: "But His spirit was not created in the instant that He was conceived (as it is with every other human being)."
John the Baptist tells us that Jesus pre-existed. Luke 1:30: "After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me." This is even more clear since Jesus was born about six months after John, yet Jesus existed before John. Luke 1:57 says that Elizabeth gave birth to a son, and in verse 63, they named him John. Then after that in Luke 2 we see the events that lead up to the birth of Jesus: The census, Joseph and Mary going to Bethlehem, where she actually gives birth to Jesus in verse 7.
Jesus Himself tells us He pre-existed:
Doug already quoted John 8:58 "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham came into being, I AM." When Jesus said this, the Jews took up stones to throw at him, so it's obvious that they understood exactly what He was saying: that is that not only did He exist before Abraham, but that He was Yahweh Himself.
Jesus tells us a 2nd time that He pre-existed in John 17:5 "Now Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
So how did He exist before He was born? Well certainly not in a fleshly body, so He had to have existed as a Spirit. John identifies Him as the Word who was with God and was God and who existed in the beginning. Of course He existed before His physical birth - He was God and God has always existed.
As Doug said, His Spirit was not created at His conception. In fact His Spirit always existed. The only part of Him that was created was His body, inside Mary's womb.
Doug said, "Jesus' Spirit came from heaven to inhabit the body created for Him by the Holy Spirit."
This is confirmed by the angel of the Lord speaking to Joseph in a dream in Matthew 1:20:
"... behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit."
Doug said: "and His Spirit was there with God, and was God, being responsible for creating everything that was created."
This is confirmed in several places.
John 1:3 "All things came into being through Him (i.e. the Word, which is Jesus - vs. 14), and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."
Colossians 1:16 "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities - all things have been created through Him and for Him."
Then in Revelation 5:13, we see every created thing worshiping Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb (Jesus). Notice Jesus is not included in "every created thing", because He was uncreated, i.e. He always was. Not only that but all created things and persons, worshiped Jesus and His Father. God strictly forbade all men to worship anyone or anything thing except Him, yet He is perfectly okay with all men worshiping Jesus. Why? Because He is Him!!!
Doug said, "The Holy Spirit is not the same as the Father."
I believe Doug is half-correct here. The Holy Spirit is not the Father. That is true, but the Scripture reveals to us that, at the same time, the Holy Spirit IS the Father. He is not the Father, but He also IS the Father.
In Acts 5:3-4, Peter uses the terms "Holy Spirit" and "God" interchangeably - equating the two. And of course God IS the Father. Therefore the Holy Spirit IS the Father at the same time He is NOT the Father.
Herein lies one of the mysteries of the Trinity, and of course those who disagree with us, mock us for speaking of the mystery of the Trinity.
But the apostle John himself stated this mystery:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (that is separate distinct Beings), and the Word was God (that is the Same Being).
So Doug was essentially 100% correct and Biblical.
Peterlag: It's sad that I have to take you by the hand and walk you through the Scriptures, so you can see the truth. You should be able to see that truth yourself, especially since you claim to be a mature student of the Bible. So either The Watchtower or your own twisting of the Scripture has left you where you are: confused and believing many lies.
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Doug Brents
Active Member
Ahh, so now you are changing your story. It goes from "all of that is false" to "all except that one part is false". The problem is that all of what I said comes directly from Scripture. Which means that you think Scripture is false.
You mean all of this other stuff?
"But His spirit was not created in the instant that He was conceived (as it is with every other human being). Jesus' spirit came from Heaven to inhabit the body made for Him by the Holy Spirit. His spirit existed before He was born (otherwise He could not say that before Abraham was born He exited), and His spirit was there with God (and was God) being responsible for creating everything that was created.
The Holy Spirit is not the same as the Father. Notice that when Jesus was baptized, the voice came from Heaven, while the dove descended like a dove. Here you have all three of the persons of God present and depicted at the same time."
Well, all of that comes directly from Scripture.
Jesus' Spirit came from Heaven (John 6:38).
Jesus' Spirit existed before He was born (John 8:58).
Jesus' Spirit was there with God at Creation and was responsible for everything that was Created (John 1:1-3, 14).
The Holy Spirit is not the same as the Father (Matt 28:19, Matt 3:16).
We are to baptize in the name of God (the ultimate authority, and the One to whom we are submitting). Yet Matt 28:19 says three names which are one: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This makes the Holy Spirit separate from the Father, and the three equal.
Peterlag
Active Member
You lost me. What part did my story change?
I posted...
Jesus was born from a woman like every other human. God is Holy and He's also Spirit which is why He is often called The Holy Spirit. What part of this do you not understand?
You posted...
Jesus wasn't born of a woman? Hmm.
Now look again at what I first posted that you commented on. In fact, I will make it red to help you. You see this is why you can't understand the Bible because you can't read.
Peterlag
Active Member
Trinitarian doctrine tries to explain the verses that say Jesus was a man...
by saying that he was a man, but he was also 100% God at the same time. But there are problems with that such as there is no single verse that says Jesus was both God and man and that's why the God-man doctrine is built from many verses.
Scholars admit that there are only about a few verses in the entire New Testament that can be understood to say that Jesus is God, and every one of them can either be translated in a way that supports the Biblical Unitarian position, or disputed textually, or can be explained from the use of the word “God” in the culture. In contrast, the clear verses where Jesus is said to be a “man” such as when Peter or Paul taught their audiences that Jesus was a man appointed by God are not disputed and in the context there does not seem to be any good reason those men would not have said Jesus was a God-man if in fact that is what he is.
by saying that he was a man, but he was also 100% God at the same time. But there are problems with that such as there is no single verse that says Jesus was both God and man and that's why the God-man doctrine is built from many verses.
Scholars admit that there are only about a few verses in the entire New Testament that can be understood to say that Jesus is God, and every one of them can either be translated in a way that supports the Biblical Unitarian position, or disputed textually, or can be explained from the use of the word “God” in the culture. In contrast, the clear verses where Jesus is said to be a “man” such as when Peter or Paul taught their audiences that Jesus was a man appointed by God are not disputed and in the context there does not seem to be any good reason those men would not have said Jesus was a God-man if in fact that is what he is.
Doug Brents
Active Member
You stated that "all of that is false" and then when challenged you changed it to "all except that one part is false".
But none of it is false. As noted, each part of my comment is backed up with Scripture.
First off, Jesus was not born "like every other human". He was born of a virgin woman, without the input, consent, interaction, or desire of a man. His spirit was not created in the instant of conception like every other human's, but came from Heaven, having preexisted the creation of the universe. That is unique.
Secondly, the Holy Spirit is not the same as the Father. The Holy Spirit is completely separate, and a distinct person from the Father. Notice in Matt 28:19 that the Holy Spirit is listed as separate from the Father and Son. Notice that when Jesus was baptized, the Father spoke from Heaven, Jesus came up out of the water on Earth, and the Spirit came down on Jesus like a dove: three separate manifestations, persons, beings interacting together.
Pete, smh, look back at the post you called a complete falsehood (#943). The very first part of that post says that Jesus was born of a woman, and you said that the whole post was false. You have to get your story straight if you want to be taken seriously.
Now, address the actual Scripture listed in post #953 that refutes your accusation of falsehood.
civic
Active Member
The Jews knew it for sure which is why they tried to kill Him for blasphemy- using the name of God Himself and claiming eternality that is Gods alone.
Peterlag
Active Member
I have no idea what you're talking about. My story never changed. This is what I posted and nothing has changed.
I posted...
Jesus was born from a woman like every other human. God is Holy and He's also Spirit which is why He is often called The Holy Spirit. What part of this do you not understand?
Doug Brents
Active Member
But Jesus wasn't born from a woman "like every other human". Yes, He was born from a woman. But not like every other human; not even close.
But can you not read?
You stated that "none of it is true." (speaking of post #943 in post #946) and then when challenged in post #949 you changed it to "all except that one part is false" (in post #950). If all of post #943 is false, and in that post I stated that Jesus was born of a woman, then not all of it is false. So you lied in your "rebuttal" in post #946. Speak clearly, and get your story straight. Admit your faults, and adhere to what Scripture says in your doctrine.
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