The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[amazing grace]

The interesting thing about being born again is that it implies a second birth and necessitates a first death. So when was the first death? Just curious what your answer is. Normally I've asked that to Trinitarians before.

Before being born again - we are natural man of body, soul, spirit (the spirit of man) - dead in trespasses and sins - that is spiritually dead. When we are born again - we are born again of the Spirit and become partakers of the divine nature.
First birth - That which is born of the flesh is flesh. Second birth - That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. That is basically how I understand it. Is that what you were asking? Are your thoughts similar?

 

[Runningman]

Before being born again - we are natural man of body, soul, spirit (the spirit of man) - dead in trespasses and sins - that is spiritually dead. When we are born again - we are born again of the Spirit and become partakers of the divine nature.
First birth - That which is born of the flesh is flesh. Second birth - That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. That is basically how I understand it. Is that what you were asking? Are your thoughts similar?

I think of people like Adam and Eve when they start off. They are sinless just like Jesus was when he was born, except everyone else eventually sins. God told Adam that the day he sinned he would die, yet Adam kept right on walking. Who died then? Only Adam's spirit. And if someone can spiritually die once, can they spiritually die again?

 

[amazing grace]

I think of people like Adam and Eve when they start off. They are sinless just like Jesus was when he was born, except everyone else eventually sins. God told Adam that the day he sinned he would die, yet Adam kept right on walking. Who died then? Only Adam's spirit. And if someone can spiritually die once, can they spiritually die again?

It depends upon what the scripture means by 'in the day'. It is the Hebrew word - yôm - meaning day, time, year; day (as opposed to night); day (24 hour period) a. as defined by evening and morning in Gen. 1; b. as a division of time - a working day, a day's journey; days, lifetime (pl.); time, period (general); year; temporal references - today, yesterday, tomorrow.

So does 'in that day' mean a 24 hour period? or did 'in that day' mean 'a general period of time' . . . The way I see it since Adam did not die 'in that day' as in 24 hours and God does not lie - maybe He meant 'a general period of time'. Or maybe the disobedience of Adam brought the sentence of death into the world and therefore, the process of death begins when we are born - our bodies begin aging and the process begins that leads to our eventual death.

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— . . . .Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous . . . [Romans 5]

We are spiritually dead ONLY once as a result of Adam's disobedience.

 

[101G]

God is Plural in Persons.

ERROR, God is Plural in the Equal Shared "Spirit" of himself, the bible is very clear.

101G.

 

[civic]

ERROR, God is Plural in the Equal Shared "Spirit" of himself, the bible is very clear.

101G.

Error God is Father, Son, Holy Spirit. I count 3 how many do you count ?

Oops

Next

hope this helps !!!

 

[101G]

Error God is Father, Son, Holy Spirit. I count 3 how many do you count ?

Oops

Next

hope this helps !!!

LOL, God is the One PERSON, who holds the titles Father, Son, and HE, Jesus is the HOLY ONE, the Holy Spirt. ONE PERSON.

Example, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."
so civic is this one or two persons here in the verse? your answer please..... note: the FIRST is with the Last, just as the Word in John 1:1 was "with" God. is this two separate spirit or two separate persons. take note: if you say two separate persons. Isaiah say "I, I, I, the LORD one person. and this ONE PERSON "MADE ALL THINGS" ... the LORD in Isaiah and John 1. remember, the word was made flesh, meaning the spirit in that flesh was G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') v. 1. to make empty. which was MADE LOWER that the angels, Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."
your answer please.

101G.

 

[civic]

LOL, God is the One PERSON, who holds the titles Father, Son, and HE, Jesus is the HOLY ONE, the Holy Spirt. ONE PERSON.

Example, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."
so civic is this one or two persons here in the verse? your answer please..... note: the FIRST is with the Last, just as the Word in John 1:1 was "with" God. is this two separate spirit or two separate persons. take note: if you say two separate persons. Isaiah say "I, I, I, the LORD one person. and this ONE PERSON "MADE ALL THINGS" ... the LORD in Isaiah and John 1. remember, the word was made flesh, meaning the spirit in that flesh was G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') v. 1. to make empty. which was MADE LOWER that the angels, Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."
your answer please.

101G.

You don’t know the difference between numerical one and a composite one. God is not a math problem. Your error is similar to the Unitarians. You are both wrong. And see how you is both singular and plural

Next fallacy

 

[Alter2Ego]

Below is the answer to your comment that I enlarged and bolded in green. Read the scriptures provided below, and then answer the questions that follow.

John 19:32​

So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first man and those of the other man who was on a stake alongside him.

John 19:33​

But on coming to Jesus, they saw that he was already dead, so they did not break his legs.

QUESTION #1 to 360watt: According to John 19:33, Jesus died. TRUE or FALSE?

Jesus' body was dead..not His Spirit. As before.. there is solid support from scripture Jesus was alive in Spirit after death before resurrection.

360watt:

You have yet to present scripture that indicates any part of Jesus was alive during the three days the Bible says he was dead. It explains why you are dodging my direct questions.

 

[Runningman]

You don’t know the difference between numerical one and a composite one. God is not a math problem. Your error is similar to the Unitarians. You are both wrong. And see how you is both singular and plural

Next fallacy

Ironic you mention fallacies so often when God is never described as 3 in the entire Bible.

 

[Alter2Ego]

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (Ecclesiastes 9:5 -- King James Bible)

Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Your spirit cannot die. You soul only if God chooses for it to be.

Mathew 10:28 KJVAnd fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

It is not our rotten flesh that goes anywhere except rotting in the ground... it is the reat of you that survives

And that is not me saying it that is the Holy Bible and your preferred translation KJV.

Thus it was with Jesus until it was time for the bodily resurrection....

FreelnChrist:

The spirit goes back to Almighty God Jehovah who gave it. That's not part of the person who died, that's Jehovah taking back the breath of life from the individual. So your above claim that the spirit cannot die is only true in the sense that the spirt of life returns to God who gave it. The person is dead completely.

 

[FreeInChrist]

FreelnChrist:

The spirit goes back to Almighty God Jehovah who gave it. That's not part of the person who died, that's Jehovah taking back the breath of life from the individual. So your above claim that the spirit cannot die is only true in the sense that the spirt of life returns to God who gave it. The person is dead completely.

And their soul?

Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

They are not the same... The spirit and the soul. The human spirit connects us to God the Father... that is true.
The soul is often considered the immaterial essence of a living being, responsible for consciousness, emotions, and personality. It is believed to be immortal and continues to exist apart from the physical body, influencing thoughts and actions throughout life

God the Father is capable of destroying the soul along with the body, but not the spirit.

But you are correct. Once dead, the flesh IS dead.

 

[Alter2Ego]

And their soul?

Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

They are not the same... The spirit and the soul. The human spirit connects us to God the Father... that is true.
The soul is often considered the immaterial essence of a living being, responsible for consciousness, emotions, and personality. It is believed to be immortal and continues to exist apart from the physical body, influencing thoughts and actions throughout life

God the Father is capable of destroying the soul along with the body, but not the spirit.

But you are correct. Once dead, the flesh IS dead.

FreeInChrist:

When taken literally, the soul is the entire living flesh-and-blood creature. Even cattle are referred to as souls in the Bible.

 

[Alter2Ego]

And their soul?

Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

That's the only scripture in the Bible that uses that terminology. The person uttering it is Jesus himself, and he was known for using symbolic speech when teaching.

“I have told you these things in figurative language (veiled language, proverbs); the hour is now coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures of speech, but I will tell you plainly about the Father." (John 16:25 -- Amplified Bible)


At Matthew 10:28, the word soul is paired up with another symbolic word (hell) in the same sentence. That's the first alert that symbolism is being used. Not only that, scriptures in other parts of the Bible make it clear that the LITERAL soul is actually the entire living flesh-and-blood creature and that the soul dies.

 

[civic]

Ironic you mention fallacies so often when God is never described as 3 in the entire Bible.

Sure God is as Jesus declares in the great commission and John in his epistle. There 3 are one.

And Jesus said to see Him was to see the Father. And said He would send another in His place- the Paraclete, Holy Spirit, Comforter. The Holy Spirit is God and Annanias/Sapphira who lied to the Holy Spirit , Peter said lied to God. The holy Spirit like the Son is God. The 3 are One.

next fallacy

 

[Runningman]

Sure God is as Jesus declares in the great commission and John in his epistle. There 3 are one.

And Jesus said to see Him was to see the Father. And said He would send another in His place- the Paraclete, Holy Spirit, Comforter. The Holy Spirit is God and Annanias/Sapphira who lied to the Holy Spirit , Peter said lied to God. The holy Spirit like the Son is God. The 3 are One.

next fallacy

Jesus didn't say they God. Actually, no where in the Bible does the word God = trinity. You're defining God differently than how the Bible does.

 

[101G]

You don’t know the difference between numerical one and a composite one. God is not a math problem. Your error is similar to the Unitarians. You are both wrong. And see how you is both singular and plural

Next fallacy

so we can take this as you cannot answer the question. thought so.

101G.

 

[Alter2Ego]

To all.
There are two Deaths, the First and Second death, as well as two resurrections. Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." the First death is of the body which is natural death... the Loss of blood from the body. supportive scripture, Leviticus 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."

Leviticus 17:14 "For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off."

this is the FIRST and natural death. the spirit at natural death returns to God who gave it. well the Lord Jesus is GOD, the author of Life. So Spiritually he is alive, not naturally, but eternally for he live by his own, and the only source of life, his Spirit.

101G

101G:

You are having a hard enough time understanding regular scriptures and you have the audacity to cite to the book of Revelation and compare it with scripture at Leviticus--which is literal. The book of Revelation announces in the first verse of the first chapter that it's full of symbolism.

Revelation 1:1​

"A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John,"


The book of Leviticus contains literal historical information regarding the ancient Israelites. One cannot compare much of anything from a book of literal history to the book of Revelation which is mostly symbolic.

 

[101G]

You are having a hard enough time understanding regular scriptures and you have the audacity to cite to the book of Revelation and compare it with scripture at Leviticus--which is literal. The book of Revelation announces in the first verse of the first chapter that it's full of symbolism.

Revelation 1:1​

"A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John,"

Greeting A2E,
all of revelation is not symbolic, unless stated. you mention, Revelation 1:1 ... is this not the Lord Jesus, only one person there in 1:1? yes or no. ... now is that 2 hard for U?

101G.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Well, Jesus is NOT God . . . As the Father has life in himself so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. (John 5:26) Just as God the Father has life in himself he has given the Son also to have life in himself.
The life of the flesh is in the blood - when your heart quits pumping - blood is no longer flowing through you - you are DEAD,
At the funeral home they will drain all liquid from your body . . . you are DEAD. You are dead until Christ returns and calls you out from among the tombs, i.e. graves [John 5:18] and raises your spiritual body. . . . That is what resurrection is for!!!!

ERROR, Jesus is God himself in flesh. question then, John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." this is the Son here in John 1:1-3 ..... now this, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" here the LORD, all caps, (the Father), said he, he, he, a single person was "ALONE. now Grace, think, is this the same ONE person who made all things in both verses? yes or no. remember alone means, "having no one else present". ...

good luck because you will need it.

101G:

You are telling amazing grace "good luck because you will need it," when, in fact, amazing grace is correct and you are wrong when you claim "Jesus is God himself in the flesh."

You are attempting to turn Jesus Christ into the Creator by connecting John 1:1-3 (which applies to Jesus, the created son) to Isaiah 44:24 (which applies to Jehovah the Father).

First of all, you are quoting John 1:3 from a Trinitarian Bible translation where the translators are attempting to push the Trinity dogma. They purposely manipulated words by stating regarding Jesus: "all things were made by him...." That is an incorrect translation by the simple fact Jesus was himself created. A created being is not capable of creating.

Below are two Trinitarian Bibles where the translators at least had the decency to give a more accurate translation.

"God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him." (John 1:3 -- New Living Translation)

John 1 NLT

"All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being." (John 1:3 -- Berean Literal Bible)

John 1 BLB

There's a vast difference between "made by him" and "made through him." Jehovah is the power behind everything that was created. Isaiah 44:24 (which you erroneously apply to Jesus) confirms that. Almighty God simply allowed Jesus--his created son--the privilege of being the person through whom he, Jehovah, did the creating.

 

[101G]

101G:

You are telling amazing grace "good luck because you will need it," when, in fact, amazing grace is correct and you are wrong when you claim "Jesus is God himself in the flesh."

You are attempting to turn Jesus Christ into the Creator by connecting John 1:1-3 (which applies to Jesus, the created son) to Isaiah 44:24 (which applies to Jehovah the Father).

First of all, you are quoting John 1:3 from a Trinitarian Bible translation where the translators are attempting to push the Trinity dogma. They purposely manipulated words by stating regarding Jesus: "all things were made by him...." That is an incorrect translation by the simple fact Jesus was himself created. A created being is not capable of creating.

Below are two Trinitarian Bibles where the translators at least had the decency to give a more accurate translation.

"God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him." (John 1:3 -- New Living Translation)

John 1 NLT

"All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being." (John 1:3 -- Berean Literal Bible)

John 1 BLB

There's a vast difference between "made by him" and "made through him." Jehovah is the power behind everything that was created. Isaiah 44:24 (which you erroneously apply to Jesus) confirms that. Almighty God simply allowed Jesus--his created son--the privilege of being the person through whom he, Jehovah, did the creating.

A2E listen carefully, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

A2E God was "ALONE" and "BY HIMSELF", when he made all things, and alone means, "having no one else present"
NOW YOUR Berean Standard Bible. " Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who by Myself spread out the earth,

if God was alone, how could he go through someone else? ..... THINK.....

101G.