The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[Runningman]

sure. suffer where you might have to as a Christian. and seek to live loving one's neighbor and showing care. I doubt you are walking on water.

Christians however do not leave the divine glory behind like Jesus did, as we see in Phil 2:5-8. So it is good you point to hisdivinity here.

So you reject that the Bible teaches Christians to walk as Jesus walked? It's about doing what he did, i.,e, following his teachings that God gave to him. So you would have the same God as Jesus, only pray to the Father, only worship the Father, etc. Jesus as Jesus taught. The Bible teaches nothing about praying to a trinity, worshipping a trinity, obeying a trinity, etc.

 

[Runningman]

Maybe his unitarian bible does not allow him to recognize the Triune God.

I assume you are of the Oneness heresy then? It is hard to keep track of the various misinterpretations happening here.

You don't have a "trinitarian bible" that says any of the things you say. One of your favorites is "the divinity of Christ in the Godhead" which is seriously begging the question. Maybe you have a trinitarian playbook or a pocket dictionary. I know you all have studied the same apologetics material. Probably Got Questions?

 

[Runningman]

He could not be a created being that existed in non-existence. The world was created through him and apart from him nothing came into existence that came into existence. This means that the Son exists before any created thing could come into existence.

The problem with taking divergent doctrines is that they only come afoul of scriptures. Those doctrines are all ill-informed and lack the discipline of dedicated study -- or else are really just off-track from the beginning

The Bible directly and explicitly says Jesus was created.

Revelation 1
14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

John 1
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Colossians 1
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

 

[Runningman]

The problem is that unitarian doctrine disregards too much of scripture. We see obvious bad approaches taken by Schoenheit and Peterlag who treat scripture as statistical so as to reject Jesus' words as in Matt 28:19-20. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for overriding the laws of God with their own oral traditions. That is what we see Schoenheit doing as well.

I haven't found anything in the Bible that you agree with. So far it seems you reject everything, even being Christlike.

 

[Runningman]

Thank you mikesw, but there's no need to warn me about other people at this website. I read what people post and usually can put two and two together. I am aware that runningman and I don't share all of the same beliefs. I figured that out from his/her Opening Post aka OP. Notice the words that I bolded in red from within runningman's OP.



That said, Runningman at least has the sense to know there are no scriptures in the Bible in support of a 3-in-1 god.

You give him the benefit of the doubt as if a "thank you" is warranted. He is simply testing you to see if you are easily deceived or not.

And, correct, there isn't a 3-in-1 god or a compound god in Jedeo-Christian theology. Compound gods are entirely pagan, but the Judeo-Christian God being strictly monotheistic is something that makes Christianity special. The trinitarians obviously want to attach themselves to this and get a piece of the pie so they say things like "not three gods, but one god" as though their philosophy can undo their polytheism.

Let me ask you something. If I put three apples on the table and said "not three apples, but one apple." Would you agree or laugh?

 

[Runningman]

Ephesians 4:8-10 KJV - 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

This is all about Jesus

Ephesians 4:8 is a quote from the Old Testament about what God did, not about what Jesus did. Old Testament verses being transferred to a context involving Jesus don't mean Jesus is God. It would be like saying that Jesus is the nation of Israel, but he isn't just because Hosea 11:1 says "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."

 

[mikesw]

So you reject that the Bible teaches Christians to walk as Jesus walked? It's about doing what he did, i.,e, following his teachings that God gave to him. So you would have the same God as Jesus, only pray to the Father, only worship the Father, etc. Jesus as Jesus taught. The Bible teaches nothing about praying to a trinity, worshipping a trinity, obeying a trinity, etc.

I do teach as Jesus does, that is why I reject the deceptive doctrines of the Schoenheits -- except if in some details they might share correct stuff.

 

[mikesw]

You don't have a "trinitarian bible" that says any of the things you say. One of your favorites is "the divinity of Christ in the Godhead" which is seriously begging the question. Maybe you have a trinitarian playbook or a pocket dictionary. I know you all have studied the same apologetics material. Probably Got Questions?

it must be reminded to the Schoenheit that the wording I use is to share what scripture reveals not to make sure I use of the Unitarian pocket dictionary. I study the scriptures.

 

[mikesw]

The Bible directly and explicitly says Jesus was created.

Revelation 1
14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

The only way for Jesus to be the source of the creation of God per Rev 7:14 is that Jesus exists before creation.

John 1
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Right. Jesus made all things

Colossians 1
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Colossians 1:15 can be used of Jesus beginning the new creatures. Having taken a body, he continues with that and is the last Adam.
So the Schoenheits seek desperately to find verses to deny the scriptures showing the divinity of Christ in the Godhead.

 

[mikesw]

I haven't found anything in the Bible that you agree with. So far it seems you reject everything, even being Christlike.

That is the problem with your interpretations -- that something "seems" this way or that. I have certainly shown that we can be Christlike in showing compassion, care for one's neighbor, making righteous judgments. However, only Christ is the divine Son descended from heaven to be among us. I cannot imitate that but you try to deny who he is and make it as if you can become his equal.

 

[360watt]

Ephesians 4:8 is a quote from the Old Testament about what God did, not about what Jesus did. Old Testament verses being transferred to a context involving Jesus don't mean Jesus is God. It would be like saying that Jesus is the nation of Israel, but he isn't just because Hosea 11:1 says "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."

More context:

Ephesians 4:11-15 KJV - 1 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

This is about New Testament doctrine. With Jesus as 'the head'.. in vs 15..and earlier in vs 12 and 13 . . There is the church as the body of Christ and growing in the knowledge of Christ.

The giving of teacher, apostle etc is also all New Testament


Here is one interpretation which I agree with from progress index:

Ephesians 4:8 says after he announced his victory, "when he ascended on high, he led captivity captive and gave gifts to men." We believe this is when he brought those who were saved during the Old Testament out from Hades and took them up to where he established Paradise (a “beautiful garden”). That's where the believing thief on the cross was the first resident (Luke 23:43) and where the spirits of all believers in this age go to await the Second Coming.

 

[Runningman]

I do teach as Jesus does, that is why I reject the deceptive doctrines of the Schoenheits -- except if in some details they might share correct stuff.

Why do you not believe what Jesus' stated beliefs about God are?

 

[Runningman]

it must be reminded to the Schoenheit that the wording I use is to share what scripture reveals not to make sure I use of the Unitarian pocket dictionary. I study the scriptures.

Your ramblings about Schoenheit are incomprehensible. You think when we quote the Bible we are quoting Schoenheit????

 

[Runningman]

The only way for Jesus to be the source of the creation of God per Rev 7:14 is that Jesus exists before creation.

Right. Jesus made all things

Colossians 1:15 can be used of Jesus beginning the new creatures. Having taken a body, he continues with that and is the last Adam.
So the Schoenheits seek desperately to find verses to deny the scriptures showing the divinity of Christ in the Godhead.

Mike, there is nothing to argue about concerning Jesus' creation. The Bible says he is of the creatures, made flesh, the beginning of the creation of God. Jesus was created. Yes, you've been deceived by your "church" and their many persuaders. We can fix that, you don't have to remain under their control.

 

[Runningman]

That is the problem with your interpretations -- that something "seems" this way or that. I have certainly shown that we can be Christlike in showing compassion, care for one's neighbor, making righteous judgments. However, only Christ is the divine Son descended from heaven to be among us. I cannot imitate that but you try to deny who he is and make it as if you can become his equal.

The problem is you think the Bible always needs to be interpreted. Why do you not believe the things it explicitly says?

 

[Alter2Ego]

These so-called religious leaders within Christendom's 41,000+ denominations--if they are ever brought back in the resurrection--will have a lot of explaining to do. I characterize their deliberate attempts at manipulating scripture as pure wickedness. They are just like the First Century religious leaders during Jesus's brief time on earth.

The scribes and Pharisees were familiar with the prophecies that point to Jesus as the Messiah, the fact that he would be identified by the performance of never-before-seen signs. But they rejected Jesus because they were looking for a political messiah.

John 11:47​

So the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered the Sanʹhe·drin together and said: “What are we to do, for this man performs many signs?

John 11:48​

If we let him go on this way, they will all put faith in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”


The fact that there is not one single verse of scripture in the Bible in support of Christendom's Trinity speaks volumes.

I believe if we can model our Christianity after Jesus and his teachings then that's perfect. Jesus stated his God is the Father. That's the kind of Christianity I'll follow then. The Bible teaches explicitly to walk as Jesus walked and be Christ-like. They seem to make it into a kind of sin to just follow Jesus. I personally wouldn't group them into Christendom. I would be comfortable calling them a Christian cult, but not actual brothers and sisters, no matter how nice and friendly they are. I think the bottom line is most of them have their religion and they will stick with it. Doesn't mean we can't just put the truth in front of their face and let them do the explaining to God if they are resurrected.

I don't understand why you are objecting to the term Christendom. Below is the definition of Christendom from a couple sources.

Christendom​

noun

Chris·ten·dom ˈkri-sᵊn-dəm
1: christianity sense 1

2: the part of the world in which Christianity prevails

Definition of CHRISTENDOM

christianity; the part of the world in which Christianity prevails… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Meaning of Christendom​

noun [ U ]

Christian people or countries as a whole:

Christendom

1. Christian people or countries as a whole: 2. Christian people or countries…

dictionary.cambridge.org

 

[Alter2Ego]

mikesw:

Exactly what do you mean by the term "pre-existence"? John 17:5 says Jesus--as a created being--existed before other created beings.

John 17:5​

"So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was."

He could not be a created being that existed in non-existence. The world was created through him and apart from him nothing came into existence that came into existence. This means that the Son exists before any created thing could come into existence.

The problem with taking divergent doctrines is that they only come afoul of scriptures. Those doctrines are all ill-informed and lack the discipline of dedicated study -- or else are really just off-track from the beginning

Scripture says Jesus is a created being.


"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." (Colossians 1:15 -- New International Version)

 

[Alter2Ego]

Jesus never spiritually died. He descended to the lower parts of the earth and set free captives upon dieing in the flesh. He then returned to the flesh, although renewed in a different transfigured appearance.

Scriptural support, please. I'm not interested in your personal philosophy.

Ephesians 4:8-10 KJV - 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

This is all about Jesus

Where, at Ephesians 4:8-10, does it say anything about Jesus being spiritually alive (while his body was dead), and where does it say he freed captives while he was supposed to be dead?

 

[360watt]

Where, at Ephesians 4:8-10, does it say anything about Jesus being spiritually alive (while his body was dead), and where does it say he freed captives while he was supposed to be dead?

So here is the back up verses for Ephesians 4:8-10 from 1 Peter:

1 Peter 3:18-20 KJV
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: [19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; [20] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Luke 16:20-24 KJV
And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, [21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. [22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; [23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. [24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

This is the abode of the dead.. where the beggar was seperate from Lazarus for ever.. the beggar set for hell .. Lazarus for Paradise.

Jesus said to the thief on the cross that He would be with the thief in Paradise.

In back up of Ephesians we also have this in Psalms:

Psalm 68:18 KJV - 18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

So it is clear that before resurrection, Jesus was still active. Out of His fleshly body.

What exactly He did isnt 100 percent clear but I support that He descended to the lower parts of the earth and preached to captive spirits and set them free from the abode of the dead.. ie the types of Lazarus. This did not include the types of the beggar..who forever remain separated from God.

 

[Alter2Ego]

So you reject that the Bible teaches Christians to walk as Jesus walked? It's about doing what he did, i.,e, following his teachings that God gave to him. So you would have the same God as Jesus, only pray to the Father, only worship the Father, etc. Jesus as Jesus taught. The Bible teaches nothing about praying to a trinity, worshipping a trinity, obeying a trinity, etc.

I do teach as Jesus does, that is why I reject the deceptive doctrines of the Schoenheits -- except if in some details they might share correct stuff.

Really, mikesw? Notice the official Trinitarian doctrine below, followed by a verse of scripture in Jesus' own words. Then answer the questions that follows:


Article 1 of Christendom's Trinity:
"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three persons, of ONE substance, POWER, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."

Article I: Of faith in the Holy Trinity

This post is part of a Lenten series on the 39 Articles. Article I: Of faith in the Holy Trinity There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite pow…

www.sevenwholedays.org

What Jesus Said Regarding His Power:
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. (John 14:28 -- New International Version)


QUESTION #1 mikesw: According to the Trinity doctrine, Jesus the Son is equal in power to Jehovah the Father. TRUE or FALSE?

QUESTION #2 mikesw: At John 14:28, Jesus said the Father is greater than he is. TRUE or FALSE?