The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[mikesw]

It's not the late use of the term but it's the length of time between the OT, the life of Christ, and the life of the apostles that it took to reach this "right" theological descriptor and there are plenty of doctrinal issues.
I doubt any Jew recognized the "threeness" of God.

Paul specifically relies on the Galatians to recognize Jesus as God in Gal 3:19-20. It is the promise from the Father to Jesus that has only one party and thus is from God to God.
Matthew 28:19-20 reflects the threeness.
The threeness was acknowledged in the first century via the promotion of Mat 28:19-20 but also expressing the threeness by Clement of Rome: "Do we not have one God, and one Christ, and one gracious Spirit that has been poured out upon us, and one calling in Christ?" (1 Clement 46:6)
The threeness is not pagan religion nor is it a late development.

I don't see where Jesus ever taught he was God nor claimed to be God.

John 17:3-5 shows Jesus had the glory before he was incarnate. Matt 26:64-65 was quoting Dan 7:13-14 showing the divinity of Christ. It is basic blindness to such details that some fail to recognize who Jesus is.

Yes, the three are mentioned together in Matt. 28:19,20 . . does that indicate a Trinity doctrine? I don't believe it does but just because I do not believe in the Trinity doesn't mean nor give me the right to get rid of the verse. I have to look at the scope of scripture and from the scope of scripture baptism was done in the name of Jesus.

That is also what unitarians do. They deny Jesus's words in favor of 6 verses by one writer saying they baptized in the name of Jesus. However, that distinction can simply be to differentiate from the baptism of John the Baptist.

The outright denial of something that is not in scripture raises concerns?
Jesus said his Father was the only true God - I believe him. Jesus said the first and great commandment was the Shema (Deut. 6:4, Mark 12:29) I believe him.
I was raised Baptist so I used to be a Trinitarian.

I'm sorry you lost your trinitarianity. You must remember that Jesus is not said to be a separate god. So his divinity does not violate him pointing out the Father as the true God.

 

[mikesw]

I don't believe we try to 'control' the language per se but there is language that is not biblical! Scripture is our standard of Truth if verbiage is being used outside the parameter of scripture, then shouldn't we question it?

I'm sorry. that is just an excuse of unitarians to avoid talking about the essence of God.

I see Jesus as being a human being just as he was prophesied to be ---- a human being.

So then you reject Dan 7:13-14 that shows him in divinity.

I can only speak on my own behalf but the reason I have trouble with a 'literal preexistence' because NO ONE has EVER preexisted their existence. BUT things can be known beforehand through God's foreknowledge which is 'notional or conceptual preexistence.'

uh. Maybe realize that his pre-existence is his divine status as God. That is supposed to be seen as unusual and not reflective of general metaphysics. It would be ignorant to interpret "before Abraham was I am" as just prophecy. Otherwise, he could have just said "It was prophesied of me before Abraham was born."

No, I don't believe that is not what is being said. It's the language used to describe the doctrine of the Trinity is language found in the creeds ---- terms and ideas way beyond the scope of scripture.
Nicene Creed:

The creeds and confessions had to be added because sly people would claim adherence to a certain creed or confession while denying the spirit of it. It is the sins and weakness of humanity that required the more explicit details of the Triune God.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God, . . . so far so good.
BUT then - born of the Father before all ages, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; . . . where did this language originate?

The passage of John 1:18 has the earlier text saying that Jesus is the only God who is in the bosom of the Father.
The language is added to exclude deceptive people from claiming a creed or confession that actually hold a heretical view of the Triune God.

We need to be careful about teaching as doctrine the commandments of men.

I agree. That is why it helps to reject the unitarian misconceptions.

 

[mikesw]

Not entirely
Here are a few examples.

Eph 3:16-21
I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge — that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.


2 Cor 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.


1 Thess 5:19-28
Do not put out the Spirit's fire; 20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22 Avoid every kind of evil.
23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

25 Brothers, pray for us. 26 Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss. 27 I charge you before the Lord to have this letter read to all the brothers.

28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.


Rev 22:17-21
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.

It is true that Paul's greetings speak of God and the Son Jesus. These are those who are at the forefront. The Father reflects the continuity of what we recognize explicitly in the OT into the NT. Jesus is known explicitly for dying for our sins and reconciling us to God. The Spirit has come as a helper in what might be seen as a humbler presence. Still, we cannot deny that the Holy Spirit has the same divinity as the Father and the Son. It just was harder to give attention to.

 

[FreeInChrist]

It's not the late use of the term but it's the length of time between the OT, the life of Christ, and the life of the apostles that it took to reach this "right" theological descriptor and there are plenty of doctrinal issues.
I doubt any Jew recognized the "threeness" of God.

I don't see where Jesus ever taught he was God nor claimed to be God.

It is true that Jesus never said the exact words, “I am God.” He did, however, make the claim to be God in many different ways, and those who heard Him knew exactly what He was saying. For example, in John 10:30, Jesus said, “I and the Father are one.” The Jews who heard Him make that statement knew well that He was claiming to be God, as witnessed by their reaction: “His Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him” (John 10:31). When He asked them why they were attempting to stone Him, they said, “For blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). Stoning was the penalty for blasphemy (Leviticus 24:16), and the Jews plainly accused Jesus of claiming to be God.

Can we say... liar, liar pants on fire??????????????????????????????????????????????????????/
Jesus made another statement claiming to be God when He said, “Very truly I tell you, . . . before Abraham was born, I am!” (John 8:58). The Jews, upon hearing Him, clearly understood that He was claiming preexistence and, more than that, to be Yahweh, the great “I AM” of Exodus 3:14.
The disciples of Jesus distinctly heard Him declare His deity. After Jesus’ resurrection, Thomas the doubting disciple finally understood Jesus’ deity, declaring Him to be “my Lord and my God” (John 20:28). If Jesus were not Lord and God, He would have corrected Thomas, but He did not;

PAY ATTENTION: FROM ONE WHO SHOULD KNOW

Even God the Father referred to Jesus as God: “About the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever’” (Hebrews 1:8, quoting Psalm 45:6).

________________________________
DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT JESUS SAID WHEN ASKED ABOUT WHY HE SPOKE IN PARABLES?
I am not suggesting that the trinity is presented in any way like a parable. I see it crystal clear from scripture.

But
Matt 13:11 Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
Matt 13:12 “For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.
Matt 13:13 “Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

This well could be one of those wonderful mysteries that when we discover it is a big WOW.
But since I have been asking the following question for quite a while now of everyone who is a non-Trin... and no one has suggested an answer.

Jesus was baptized by John then everyone after that coming into the faith was baptized in the name of Jesus.

Ok, that's cool. He is the Savior and all.

Why then did Jesus change things when He said in Matt 28:19 " “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"

If only the Father is God, and Jesus is the Savior.... why include the third one... the Holy Spirit.

And here is a second part of this.... He said... IN THE NAME... SINGULAR. Jesus said to name all three but say in the singular name.

If there is no Trinity WHY?

Yes, the three are mentioned together in Matt. 28:19,20 . . does that indicate a Trinity doctrine? I don't believe it does but just because I do not believe in the Trinity doesn't mean nor give me the right to get rid of the verse. I have to look at the scope of scripture and from the scope of scripture baptism was done in the name of Jesus.

The outright denial of something that is not in scripture raises concerns?
Jesus said his Father was the only true God - I believe him. Jesus said the first and great commandment was the Shema (Deut. 6:4, Mark 12:29) I believe him.
I was raised Baptist so I used to be a Trinitarian.