The High priest knew He was claiming to be a divine Messiah
The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning
- Thread starter Runningman
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Peterlag
Active Member
There's no verse that says the High Priest knew he was claiming to be a divine Messiah.
Peterlag
Active Member
Now get this... Jesus really was looking for a way out of this...
Jesus prayed to God “not my will, but yours, be done” because Jesus and God have separate wills (Luke 22:42; John 5:30). They would have one will if Jesus and the Father are the same “one God.” Trinitarian doctrine claims that Luke is referring to the human will of Jesus, and not his divine will, but that is problematic because the Bible never says anything like that or even hints that Jesus had two wills in conflict with each other inside him allowing one to be human and the other to be divine.
Jesus prayed to God “not my will, but yours, be done” because Jesus and God have separate wills (Luke 22:42; John 5:30). They would have one will if Jesus and the Father are the same “one God.” Trinitarian doctrine claims that Luke is referring to the human will of Jesus, and not his divine will, but that is problematic because the Bible never says anything like that or even hints that Jesus had two wills in conflict with each other inside him allowing one to be human and the other to be divine.
if the Father was incarnate, he too would have had a will concerning his flesh. Duhhhh. Not sure why unitarians cannot figure out the situation reasonably. All they can come out with are meaningless memes.
Peterlag
Active Member
Jesus is called God in the Bible...
Elohim is translated into Greek as Theos. Now let's look at how the word "Theos" is used in the Greek.
Exodus 21:6
Then his master shall bring him before Theos; and shall bring him to the door, or unto the doorpost; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him forever.
"Theos refers to human judges."
Exodus 22:8
If the thief is not found, then the master of the house shall be brought before Theos, to see whether he has laid his hand on his neighbor’s goods.
"Men judging in a legal court."
Exodus 22:9
For every matter of trespass, the cause of both parties shall come before Theos; and whom Theos condemns, he shall pay double to his neighbor.
"Human authority issuing judgment."
Psalm 82:6
I said, you are Theoi, and all of you are sons of the Most High.
"Theoi is the plural of Theos and here it is spoken to men who are mortal rulers."
Psalm 82:1
Theos stands in the assembly of Theoi; he judges in the midst of the Theoi.
"Rulers judging rulers."
Now look at the same verses in Hebrew.
Exodus 21:6
Then his master shall bring him unto the Elohim; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the doorpost; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.
"Human judges with legal authority."
Exodus 22:8
If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the Elohim, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour’s goods.
"Court setting with men judging."
Exodus 22:9
For all manner of trespass, the cause of both parties shall come before the Elohim; and whom the Elohim shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.
"Men judging disputes."
Psalm 82:6
I have said, Ye are Elohim; and all of you are children of the Most High.
"Mortal human rulers."
Psalm 82:1
Elohim standeth in the congregation of Elohim; he judgeth among the Elohim.
"Rulers judging rulers."
Elohim equals Theos.
Both words apply to men.
Both function as titles of authority.
cc: @Runningman
Elohim is translated into Greek as Theos. Now let's look at how the word "Theos" is used in the Greek.
Exodus 21:6
Then his master shall bring him before Theos; and shall bring him to the door, or unto the doorpost; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him forever.
"Theos refers to human judges."
Exodus 22:8
If the thief is not found, then the master of the house shall be brought before Theos, to see whether he has laid his hand on his neighbor’s goods.
"Men judging in a legal court."
Exodus 22:9
For every matter of trespass, the cause of both parties shall come before Theos; and whom Theos condemns, he shall pay double to his neighbor.
"Human authority issuing judgment."
Psalm 82:6
I said, you are Theoi, and all of you are sons of the Most High.
"Theoi is the plural of Theos and here it is spoken to men who are mortal rulers."
Psalm 82:1
Theos stands in the assembly of Theoi; he judges in the midst of the Theoi.
"Rulers judging rulers."
Now look at the same verses in Hebrew.
Exodus 21:6
Then his master shall bring him unto the Elohim; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the doorpost; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.
"Human judges with legal authority."
Exodus 22:8
If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the Elohim, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour’s goods.
"Court setting with men judging."
Exodus 22:9
For all manner of trespass, the cause of both parties shall come before the Elohim; and whom the Elohim shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.
"Men judging disputes."
Psalm 82:6
I have said, Ye are Elohim; and all of you are children of the Most High.
"Mortal human rulers."
Psalm 82:1
Elohim standeth in the congregation of Elohim; he judgeth among the Elohim.
"Rulers judging rulers."
Elohim equals Theos.
Both words apply to men.
Both function as titles of authority.
cc: @Runningman
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This does not say men are God. Maybe you want to say "bring him to the gods"?
The verse best expresses taking the slave to the temple and this perhaps to make a solemn declaration.
ESV says "shall come near to God"
haha. This is speaking of these men being judged as evil even though God has exalted them. A very fine example of unitarian desperation.
ESV says "then his master shall bring him to God"
This does not say men are God. Maybe you want to say "bring him to the gods"?
ESV says "shall come near to God"
Again, I think the unitarian wants to say the parties will go before the gods.
haha. This is speaking of these men being judged as evil even though God has exalted them. A very fine example of unitarian desperation.
So, for the unitarian, this means in John 1:1 that the Word with with man and the Word was man. That seems like a wonderful unitarian discovery. Not!!!
Doug Brents
Active Member
You are focused on your idea that the Logos is an "it" so that you can ignore the fact that "it" is God. And then "it" took on flesh and became a man: Jesus.
It does not matter that we call the Logos of God an "it" or a "he" in verse 3. What matters is that we acknowledge that "it" is God. And then acknowledge that "it" (God) became flesh in verse 14 (but "it" didn't cease to be God when "it" took on flesh).
Peterlag
Active Member
My word is an it. When I say something, it is not referred as another person. If the word that came down from the boss is everyone is going home today. That word is not another boss. This is not rocket science.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Your word is not you. But you are not God. John 1:1 says that the Word (Logos) of God was God. It was not the same being as God (because it was "with" God), but it was still God. You are trying to use humanistic logic, but that doesn't stand up in front of what Scripture SAYS!
Peterlag
Active Member
God interacts with me within the same boundaries He set up for me to function in. There's not a different set of rules for the Word of God that's different from the word of Peter.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Logos - principle of divine reason and creative order, identified in the Gospel of John as incarnate in Jesus Christ.
The definition of Logos/Word is the divine reason and creative order of God. This is not what God said, nor is it what God wrote down: "words". It is the reasoning power and creativity of God, and it became a man (thus becoming a "Him") in the person of Jesus Christ.
Your reasoning power and creativity cannot be separated from yourself, but for God (who is MUCH, MUCH more than you (or I)) it can be separated.
its shown when he claimed Jesus had just blasphemed, by claiming to be equal to God
In John 10:34-36, Jesus quotes Psalm 82:6—where human judges/magistrates are called "elohim" (gods)—to defend his claim to divinity against accusations of blasphemy. He argues that if the Old Testament calls human judges "gods" because they represent God's authority, it is not blasphemous for him, the Son of God, to claim divine identity.
Key Aspects of Jesus' Meaning:
- The Context of Psalm 82: The psalm is a judgment on corrupt Israeli leaders who, despite being appointed to dispense divine justice, ruled wickedly and unjustly.
- Representative Authority: The title "gods" does not mean they were divine beings. Rather, it signifies their role as representatives of God, entrusted with administering God’s justice on earth, making them, in a functional sense, "gods" by office.
- Kal Vachomer Argument: Jesus uses a logical argument often used in rabbinic debate: If the Scriptures call flawed men "gods" because they received the Word of God and held a sacred office, then it is far more appropriate for the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world to call himself the Son of God.
- Defending His Claim: Jesus was pointing out the hypocrisy of the religious leaders, using their own scripture to show that his claim to deity was not only valid but consistent with the "law" they claimed to defend.
Logos was and is ternal word of the Father, who incarnated as the Man Lord Jesus Christ
Peterlag
Active Member
John 10 says nothing about Jesus referring to himself as a God. That Scripture says "son of God."
Peterlag
Active Member
Jesus did not claim to be equal to God. The unbelieving Jews said he claimed to be equal to God because he said he was the son of God. Saying you are the son of God does not make you God. It does put you in the same family to whatever the Father has. If you're a king then the son would be a prince and therefore share in the kingdom on equal ground pertaining to the kingdom. If your dad is a business owner then it would put you on equal ground in the family business to share in the wealth and even run the business later on. The Jews understood that custom and even we do today in our country.
Peterlag
Active Member
The word "logos" (Word) denotes (I) "the expression of thought" as embodying a conception or idea. λόγος "logos" is something said (including the thought). So the word "logos" means an expression of thought. It makes perfect sense if we use this understanding everywhere the word "logos" is used. So in John 1:1 the Word is not Jesus, but rather it became flesh, which is God's expression of thought or plan that became flesh with the coming of Jesus Christ.
Here's a partial list of how "logos" is translated in the New Testament...
cause, communication, sayings, saying, word, words, account, talk, question, treatise, intent, tidings, speaker, matter, mouth, work, utterance, preaching, speech, concerning, show, do, doctrine, reason, with, and thing.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Again, you ignore Scripture over and over again. Even if you want to call "Logos" just an embodiment of the Father's ideas, Scripture says that the Logos was WITH God and WAS God. And nothing says that the Logos ceased being God when it took on flesh. So when the Logos took on flesh, it was still God, and we know the flesh that it/He took on as Jesus Christ.
This post reflects ignorance of concepts like allegory and metalepsis. The idea of metalepsis is that a word (or even a quote of other text) carries with (and transfers) meaning from one context to be applied to another context. The logos carries with it the concepts of sort of a co-creator in creation as found in Philo's use of the concept along with the Greek philosophy concept of logos. John shows this logos as being with God and being God. That deity concept is carried forth with the corrections against Philo's construct of the logos into the incarnation as Jesus.
This is a wonderful approach that was planned by God even with the unusual concept of wisdom being along with God in creation per Proverb 8:22-31. The unitarian has to tear this apart to deny the testimony of scripture.
Peterlag
Active Member
Where do you get this idea that the logos was God?
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