The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[Doug Brents]

You need to expend your brain because it's only thinking short term. If a man knows what his child will do after every meal based on what the child did after every meal for years. And then he had a few more kids is how he can know what kids do after every meal. Now think about God watching men for thousands of years. And the fact that He may have done this before maybe a million times on other planets in different galaxies. All of the above would not mean God saw the future.

WOW!!!!
You really think that God has millions of planets on which He has some form of life, on which His Son had to go, live one of their lifetimes, and die to redeem them? Or did His sacrifice on Earth pay for the sins of all those other beings? Or are they not in His image, in which case they aren't "living beings" and so don't matter in the eternal sense? Or are you just making up stuff that has no meaning, and trying to confuse the issue because of your own lack of knowledge?

No, God has one planet on which dwell beings to whom He has given the breath of life (our living spirit). And, as the other passages I cited demonstrate, He knew before He started Creation what was going to happen with and to each and every person He created. But you don't have to believe that.

 

[Peterlag]

WOW!!!!
You really think that God has millions of planets on which He has some form of life, on which His Son had to go, live one of their lifetimes, and die to redeem them? Or did His sacrifice on Earth pay for the sins of all those other beings? Or are they not in His image, in which case they aren't "living beings" and so don't matter in the eternal sense? Or are you just making up stuff that has no meaning, and trying to confuse the issue because of your own lack of knowledge?

No, God has one planet on which dwell beings to whom He has given the breath of life (our living spirit). And, as the other passages I cited demonstrate, He knew before He started Creation what was going to happen with and to each and every person He created. But you don't have to believe that.

You're stuck in a box. I did not say God sent a Jesus type to other planets. I said He may have had other types of men on different planets. But even if not. There's plenty of data on the Earth to show God has been watching how men act for thousands of years. He knows us and it's not because He saw us in the future.

 

[Peterlag]

Jesus had not been claiming to be God in the flesh and this is why the Jews never asked him at his trial if he was God in the flesh, but instead they asked him about what he had been claiming to be, which was the Messiah. Mark 14:61-62 records the High Priest asking “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" And Jesus said "I am.” The High Priest tore his garments and said he deserved to be put to death when Jesus stated he was the Messiah. So we see that the Jews correctly assessed that Jesus had been claiming to be the Christ, and that Jesus indeed said he was the Christ, and also that the Jews thought his claim was worthy of the death penalty.

 

[Doug Brents]

You're stuck in a box. I did not say God sent a Jesus type to other planets.

If He didn't, then they don't matter in the least. If they don't have a living spirit then their actions/reactions cannot be analogous to ours.

I said He may have had other types of men on different planets.

Again, if they don't have a living spirit then their actions/reactions cannot be analogous to ours. So it would do Him no good to observe them.

But even if not. There's plenty of data on the Earth to show God has been watching how men act for thousands of years. He knows us and it's not because He saw us in the future.

You assume that God only knows us because He has observed us (like a "Groundhog Day" god). Scripture does not support you. Read the other verses provided that give more information about who God is and what He knows.

 

[Doug Brents]

Jesus had not been claiming to be God in the flesh and this is why the Jews never asked him at his trial if he was God in the flesh, but instead they asked him about what he had been claiming to be, which was the Messiah. Mark 14:61-62 records the High Priest asking “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" And Jesus said "I am.” The High Priest tore his garments and said he deserved to be put to death when Jesus stated he was the Messiah. So we see that the Jews correctly assessed that Jesus had been claiming to be the Christ, and that Jesus indeed said he was the Christ, and also that the Jews thought his claim was worthy of the death penalty.

Why is being the Christ deserving of death? The Jews had been waiting for over 1800 years for the Christ, not to kill Him but to make Him their King.
Being the Christ is not the same as being the Son of God. They were asking two different questions:
Are you the Christ? and
Are you the Son of God?
He said "Yes!" to both of the questions. "Son of God" means equal with God (not descendant of God).

 

[mikesw]

Jesus had not been claiming to be God in the flesh and this is why the Jews never asked him at his trial if he was God in the flesh, but instead they asked him about what he had been claiming to be, which was the Messiah. Mark 14:61-62 records the High Priest asking “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" And Jesus said "I am.” The High Priest tore his garments and said he deserved to be put to death when Jesus stated he was the Messiah. So we see that the Jews correctly assessed that Jesus had been claiming to be the Christ, and that Jesus indeed said he was the Christ, and also that the Jews thought his claim was worthy of the death penalty.

It is suspicious how Peterlag quotes Mark 14:61-62 without mention of Matt 26
Matthew 26:63–66 (ESV)
63But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.”
64Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
65Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has uttered blasphemy. What further witnesses do we need? You have now heard his blasphemy.
66What is your judgment?” They answered, “He deserves death.”

 

[Peterlag]

Why is being the Christ deserving of death? The Jews had been waiting for over 1800 years for the Christ, not to kill Him but to make Him their King.
Being the Christ is not the same as being the Son of God. They were asking two different questions:
Are you the Christ? and
Are you the Son of God?
He said "Yes!" to both of the questions. "Son of God" means equal with God (not descendant of God).

Either you can't read or you can't think clearly regarding the concept of the trinity because you say "son of God" means equal with God.

 

[Peterlag]

If He didn't, then they don't matter in the least. If they don't have a living spirit then their actions/reactions cannot be analogous to ours.

Again, if they don't have a living spirit then their actions/reactions cannot be analogous to ours. So it would do Him no good to observe them.

You assume that God only knows us because He has observed us (like a "Groundhog Day" god). Scripture does not support you. Read the other verses provided that give more information about who God is and what He knows.

In the movie called "Groundhog Day" Bill actually says maybe God does not know everything. Maybe He just has seen all this before.

 

[JesusFan]

Wanna see if we can find anyone else to have said to have come from above? Read John 3. Jesus says everyone must be born from above to see the kingdom of God.

Jesus claimed that he shared in the very glory of the Father as also God before His incarnation

 

[JesusFan]

Trinitarianism leans heavily on gnostic propaganda and esoteric teachings to attempt to gatekeep understanding the Bible through the secret knowledge fallacy and appeal to mystery. Just when you show them that the Father is alone the true God (John 17:3) they will say that's all wrong and present to you a different god never once mentioned in the Bible. From a Biblical perspective, trinitarianism is a cult. It's just a big one. It being the most numerous at the moment doesn't make it valid.

We get the doctrine of the trinity from what the very revelation from God of Himself in the Bible to us

 

[JesusFan]

All of this is blown out of the water by the fact that the "Word as God" is an anarthrous predicate nominative. There is literally no way for the trinitarian or the JW version of John 1:1 to work. Biblical Unitarians got this right. Want to really prove it? The word of God is personified repeatedly throughout the Old Testament, but never represented as a distinct being or a God with God. Also, the Word is still called a that, which, this, that, and it in 1 John 1:1-3. Argue all you want, but those are non-person pronouns, meaning the Word can be 100% honestly and accurately understood to be a thing. No mention of any incarnation anywhere in all of Scripture. The case against your theories about the Word is overwhelming. There are even passages where the Word is next to Jesus in the same context as something distinct from him and not him.

The word of the Father is called a person who was born as Jesus

 

[JesusFan]

You go against common knowledge of Greek grammar. Is that altering of Greek grammar the best path for unitarians to follow? I have no idea how you have gotten so off track here. You did not even make anything sound sensible let alone be proper Greek grammar.


That is evidence of the Spirit or of the preexistent One identified as the Word in the OT. It is not like ideas were just floating around in space. You have just provided evidence of the Triune God but pretend that it defends a unitarian idea.

Pronouns are not way to determine whether metalepsis is used or not. Also, pronouns are often used in other languages to match with the word gender rather than a logical gender. You also conveyed that the Word having been godly gave that up and became ungodly.

You deny use of the English language (i.e. "incarnation") and use that as an excuse to deny who Christ is. That argument hardly works in the real world.

The Angel of Yahweh in the OT was a messenger of God who spoke for Yahweh and also claimed to be Yahweh Himself

 

[civic]

Jesus claimed that he shared in the very glory of the Father as also God before His incarnation

Yes He did as we read in John 17:5. Only someone with an agenda, a bias could read John 17:5 and not come to that same conclusion. And that same shared glory between Them preexisted the creation of all things outlined in Genesis 1.

 

[civic]

The Angel of Yahweh in the OT was a messenger of God who spoke for Yahweh and also claimed to be Yahweh Himself

Yes and that was the Pre Incarnate Son.

 

[JesusFan]

Yes, there being an anarthous predicate nominative in John 1:1 is proof it the Word isn't a person or God. Let's try this again if you want to add any weight behind the trinitarian perspective. Care you show an example in the Bible where anyone repeated the Word is God?

Prologue to Gospel of John

 

[JesusFan]

Either you can't read or you can't think clearly regarding the concept of the trinity because you say "son of God" means equal with God.

It did to the Jewish high priest

 

[amazing grace]

The Angel of Yahweh in the OT was a messenger of God who spoke for Yahweh and also claimed to be Yahweh Himself

So, the angel that Yahweh sent as His messenger is actually Yahweh Himself ---- Are you saying that Yahweh is an angel?

Yes and that was the Pre Incarnate Son.

and if the preincarnate Son is the 'angel of Yahweh' are you not agreeing with the JW's that Jesus was an angel?

 

[Doug Brents]

Either you can't read or you can't think clearly regarding the concept of the trinity because you say "son of God" means equal with God.

The term "son" in Jesus' time indicated someone with equal authority in the house to the father. A child was no greater than property (Gal 4:1-2). When the child became a son (as Jesus did when He went to the Temple at age 12), he becomes the equal of his father in authority within the household. This is why the Pharisees accused Him of blasphemy in that He made Himself equal with God (John 10:33).

In the movie called "Groundhog Day" Bill actually says maybe God does not know everything. Maybe He just has seen all this before.

Precisely. But that is inaccurate according to the Bible. God doesn't need to live it over and over. He saw it all from the beginning (Isa 46:10).

 

[civic]

So, the angel that Yahweh sent as His messenger is actually Yahweh Himself ---- Are you saying that Yahweh is an angel?

and if the preincarnate Son is the 'angel of Yahweh' are you not agreeing with the JW's that Jesus was an angel?

Nope messenger does not mean created angel, but it can depending on the context

 

[mikesw]

The Angel of Yahweh in the OT was a messenger of God who spoke for Yahweh and also claimed to be Yahweh Himself

Right. Even the people of Judah were debating on the concept of the Two Powers in Heaven (a book title of Alan Segal). This means that a binitarian sense, if not trinary, is apparent in the Old Testament. This makes further sense as the same who became incarnate as Jesus.