Runningman
Active Member
So if not identical then belief in God is not equal to believing in Jesus. That's my point. You seem to get it now.
The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning
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civic
Active Member
Equal and same do not mean identical.
My wife and I have the same human nature but we are not identical but are equals.
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Runningman
Active Member
If Jesus isn't identical to God then he isn't God. Case closed.
civic
Active Member
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I never said you had evil intent. You're loose with your vocabulary. You need to tighten up your appeal.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Character is more accurate but nature is an essential part of Character.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Different isn't worse or lesser. That is what racists believe.
Do you think you're superior to other members of the human race?
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Your lack of character is showing. You demand everyone be like you. Racists do the same things. Flesh is flesh. Spirit is Spirit.
Do you remember those words coward?
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Runningman
Active Member
Jesus and God aren't the same. So Jesus isn't God. Get over it already.
Runningman
Active Member
There was nothing useful or productive in this post, but I think you can do better than that.
civic
Active Member
Agreed I’m using it as a synonym
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Again. Racists think like you do. That different is lesser. It really is telling just how you resist the truth. The Father is the Father. The Son is the Son. They share in many many things. When I say "share", I am saying they are identical in Character.
No matter what you claim, you're continue to prove that you share very very little with the Father. The Son is perfectly the Father in Character. You are not.
Runningman
Active Member
Nonsense. Jesus has a different will, different knowledge, different authority level, etc than the Father. The Father doesn't have a God, but Jesus does. The Father isn't in the image of God because He is God, but Jesus is in the image of God because he isn't God. The Father inherently has all authority, Jesus received his authority. God isn't a trinity, when you going to figure that out?
praise_yeshua
Active Member
That makes you equal with the Son right? I can keep going and going with this. Stick around....
So does this make you equal with the Son? If not, then explain how you have access to the Father without the Son? You won't even talk to the Son.
You're delusional if you think you have the Father without His One and Only Son. Jesus Christ.
I've meet many of you over the years. You all fail to be anything like Jesus.
Runningman
Active Member
I am simply talking about Scripture. I am not talking about you or myself. I am just showing you what the Bible says. If you got a problem with it then take it up with God at your judgement.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
You must talk about yourself. As men, we are equals. You have no power over me.
I've been talking to God for many years about what He said. I was "taking it up with God" long before some man that isn't even a father himself insists he understands a father son relationship.
You are really a isolated man. You can't know God the way you're choosing to be in this life.
Runningman
Active Member
Yes, you will be taking your idolatry up with God. Guaranteed. Scripture says so. Prepare to be in the hot seat soon. Not a place you want to be. Quite foolish that you would dive headlong, willingly, into the hands of God who hates your unrepentant sin.
Deuteronomy 29
18Make sure there is no man or woman, clan or tribe among you today whose heart turns away from the LORD our God to go and worship the gods of those nations. Make sure there is no root among you that bears such poisonous and bitter fruit,
19because when such a person hears the words of this oath, he invokes a blessing on himself, saying, ‘I will have peace, even though I walk in the stubbornness of my own heart.’
This will bring disaster on the watered land as well as the dry. 20The LORD will never be willing to forgive him. Instead, His anger and jealousy will burn against that man, and every curse written in this book will fall upon him. The LORD will blot out his name from under heaven
civic
Active Member
Unspiritual and unbiblical. The truth is not in your side since you devalue Jesus
Runningman
Active Member
You're going too far with the whole "Jesus is God" mumbo jumbo. Maybe you mean well, but you devalue God and attempt to strip Him of His glory by continuously calling a human God. Very unspiritual and sinful on your part.
civic
Active Member
you are goinf to fat denying Christ is God when Scripture emphatically declares He is God. You devalue Him daily on the forum.
Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.
Isaiah 48:12
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins. Yes, if you don't believe that I AM(YHWH), you will die in your sins."
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am.(YHWH)"
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 20:28
Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ who is God over all forever praised! Amen.
Titus 2:13
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Hebrews 1:8
But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE O GOD IS FOREVER AND EVER
Hebrews 1:10
He also says,
"In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours
2 Peter 1:11
for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
2 Peter 1:1
τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
2 Peter 1:11
τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
2 Peter 1:1
our God and Savior, Jesus Christ
2 Peter 1:11
our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
We have a second person possessive pronoun "Our" modifying two different improper nouns (God and Savior) joined by "and" (Kia) to identify a proper noun (Jesus) [Granville/Sharp's]. Therefore, by basic grammar, we are identifying Jesus as God and Savior. We don't even have to know the Greek to see that Jesus is being called both God and Savior/ Lord and Savior in Peters 2nd Epistle. 2 Peter 2:20 and 2 Peter 3:18 also have the same Greek construction as 1:1 and 1:11.
But for those interested in the Greek here is the comparison of 1:1 and 1:11.
τοῦ is the same.
ἡμῶν is the same.
καὶ is the same.
Σωτῆρος is the same.
Ἰησοῦ is the same.
Χριστοῦ· is the same.
And all in the same order.
The only difference is the noun "Θεοῦ" in v.1, while "Κυρίου" is in v.11.
So if a person wants to deny that Jesus is "God" ("theou") in v.1, then they have to deny that Jesus is "Lord" ("kuriou") in v.11. Otherwise they are being inconsistent and dishonest with the text. To say otherwise is proof positive one has an agenda when reading scripture and using eisegesis rather than exegesis of the biblical text in question.
1 John 5:20
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true even in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
Jesus is eternal life, He is life. We see this over and over again in the Apostle Johns writings. In Him was LIFE and that LIFE was the light of man. Life of the world, the Bread of LIFE,My words are spirit and they are LIFE, I AM the way,the truth and the LIFE,The LIFE was manifested and we proclaim to you the ETERNAL Life which was with the Father, and was manifested to us- The Prologue of 1st John. So we see that when John uses the phrase True God and Eternal Life together in 1 John 5:20 that He is referring to Christ as the closest antecedent making Him the True God and Eternal Life.
Also we see that when we search the NT that Eternal Life is never used of the Father without the Son but we see that Eternal Life is used over and over with Jesus where the Father is never mentioned. This makes a solid case for Jesus in 1 John 5:20 as the True God and Eternal Life.
1 John 5:20
20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true — even in his Son Jesus Christ. He(Jesus) is the true God and eternal life.
On behalf of seeing χριστος as the antecedent are the following arguments: (1) Although it is true that αληθινος θεος is not elsewhere referred to Christ, αληθεια is, and is so in Johannine literature (John 14:6).
29 Winer-Moulton, 195.
Further, αληθινος θεος is not a "constant.. epithet" as Winer supposes, being found only in John 17:3 and 1 John 5:20! (2) Christ is also said to be ζωη in John's writings John 11:25; 14:6; 1 John 1:1-2), an epithet nowhere else used of the Father. (3) The demonstrative pronoun, ουτος, in the Gospel and Epistles of John seems to be used in a theologically rich manner.30 Specifically, of the approximately seventy instances in which ουτος has a personal referent, as many as forty- four of them (almost two-thirds of the instances) refer to the Son. Of the remainder, most imply some sort of positive connection with the Son.31 What is most significant is that never is the Father the referent.For what it is worth, this datum increases the probability that ιησου χριστω is the antecedent in 1 John 5:20. 32 The issue cannot be decided on grammar alone. But suffice it to say here that there are no grammatical reasons for denying that αληθινος θεος is descriptive of Jesus Christ.
My top 10 biblical and exegetical reasons Jesus Christ is the True God and Eternal Life.
1st- Jesus is called God in the writings of John(1:1,20:28,1 John 5:20)
2nd- Jesus is called Eternal Life over and over again in Johns writings
3rd- John opens up his epistle with the Eternal life(Jesus) that was with the Father in the beginning and was manifest to the disciples(1 John 1:1-5)
4th- John ends his epistle with Jesus who is eternal life and only is eternal life found in Him who is the true God.
5th- never is eternal life used of the Father alone. When the Father is included the Son is always mentioned together with the Father making them equal. Equality with the Father was not something Jesus needed to grasp at as He already possessed complete Deity as God.(Phil 2, Col 2:9)
6th- John would not leave his readers with any ambiguity warning them to guard themselves from idols(5:21) So this would be clear his reference was to those who reject Jesus as the true God. They are the idoloters and antichrists John writes of in his epistles.
7th- Jesus is also the True God and the True one in 1 John. Jesus is the true light which brings light to all men (John 1:9) Jesus is the truth (John 14:6)Jesus is the true vine (John 15:1). Jesus is the true witness of God (John 18:37) He who is true (Revelation 3:7) Jesus is the faithful and true witness (Revelation 3:14)Jesus is Lord God Almighty, Just and true are your ways(Revelation 15:3) Jesus is faithful and true(Revelation 19:11).
8th- [In John's writings] Of the approximately 70 instances in which ουτος has a personal referent, as many as 44 of them (almost 2/3 . . . ) refer to the Son. Of the remainder, most imply some sort of positive connection with the Son.31 What is most significant is that NEVER is the Father the referent.FWIW, this datum increases the probability that ιησου χριστω IS the antecedent in 1 John 5:20. Wallace.
9th- Netbible- Wallace
If This one in 5:20 is understood as referring to Jesus, it forms an inclusion with the prologue, which introduced the reader to "the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us." Thus it appears best to understand the pronoun This one in 5:20 as a reference to Jesus Christ. The christological affirmation which results is striking, but certainly not beyond the capabilities of the author (see John 1:1 and 20:28): This One [Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life.
10th- This/ He (autos)Jesus Christ (the last-named Person) is the true God
So the most logical conclusion is that it refers to Jesus as the true God. Not only is this Wallace's conclusion from Johns usage of outos but He is the closest antecedent (most times in the NT this principal holds true). Eternal Life is never used of the Father alone in John’s writings and only a couple of times does John include the Father with the Son regarding eternal life. John opens up his epistles describing the "eternal life" who was with the Father in the beginning and then ends his epistle with eternal life identifying Jesus as the true God and eternal life. John then says this in the last verse:
1 John 5:21-Guard yourselves from idols
Now why would he leave any ambiguity in verse 20 as to the identity of the true God and eternal life then turn around commanding them to protect themselves from idolatry? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever unless John is identifying Jesus as the true God and refuting the Gnostics of his day who denied the Incarnation.
These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus in the GNT who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God!!!!!!! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the GNT but always to Jesus.
Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty
Revelation 1:17
17And when I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I Am the first and the last:
We know from Revelation 1:17-18 that the first and the last is He that liveth, was dead, but is alive forevermore is Christ.
Revelation 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
We know from Revelation 22:13 that the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega.
Revelation 22:16, 20
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
Conclusion: So we can see that the One who comes/is coming in the NT always refers to Jesus the Son of Man and NEVER refers to the Father. Therefore we can conclude it is Jesus who is coming whom John calls God the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last.. This is sound biblical exegesis based on the context of the passage as well as the principle established in both Testaments on the One who is Coming in/with the Clouds- The Son of Man not the Father !!!!!!
hope this helps !!!
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