civic
Active Member
They are the same you cannot have One without the Other hence They are Equal with placing faith in for salvation.
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The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning
- Thread starter Runningman
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Doug Brents
Active Member
You believe his chair will hold you, believe also in mine. No, the chairs are not the same chair, but they were made by the same person at the same time and are equal in stature, strength, design, and purpose.
No, the Father and Jesus are not the same "person", but they are the same God.
civic
Active Member
And all of Gods children said : AMEN !!!
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Has there ever been a "messenger" from God that has ever preached "believe in me".....?
Whether people realize this or not, that is exactly the message you hear today from almost everyone preaching about "God" in the Christian faith.
It is so wrong and deceptive. It is self serving and designed to make the disciples of Christ.... follow men that will never be worthy to be followed.
It is an exclusive statement that requires everyone to treat Jesus Christ equal with God. No one else can say what Jesus said.
This is witnessed in the parable of the heir.
Luk 20:14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
There is only ONE heir. Only One. Only ONE exacting image of the Son. Only One. It is in perfect Unity with those claiming the "Father".
Many religions on this earth call out to God. The battle has never really been with Atheism. They're fools. The battle has long been over what anyone does with the message of Jesus Christ.
It is exactly why Paul sought to "WIN" Jesus Christ.
Php 3:8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may win Christ
Nobody need to win me for anything. Same is true of many man.
Jesus Christ, well that is a different "story".
"Chair" doesn't fit this brother. It is much more than a "chair" or a "seat". Is the very Character of God in Jesus Christ. The very heart of God on full display in Jesus Christ.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Absolutely correct: we should not worship or follow men of any standing. That is why we do not follow Jesus as a man. He was not just a man, He was/is God in the flesh.
In one sense you are correct: Jesus is the only Son of God, the only human whose soul was/is God. But you are not quite accurate also, because God has made us who are in Christ co-heirs with Christ (Rom 8:17).
The chair was simply a metaphor, and analogy. Of course Jesus is much more than a chair, and He was not made any more than the Father was made. But He is still both separate from the Father and in perfect unity with the Father.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I know you don't understand the intricate nature of the Incarnation but there is no division in Person within the Incarnation. You can't follow Jesus Christ and not follow "the man".
I'm trying to refine your position. You should correct what you've said above.
Your concept of "co-heirs" is wrong. We are blessed with Jesus Christ. We are not identical to Jesus Christ. We are blessed WITH HIM.
Big difference.
Doug Brents
Active Member
So you disagree with Scripture? Rom 8:16-17 - "The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him."
All who are children of God, who have been clothed with Christ, who have been washed in His blood, are fellow heirs (co-heirs) with Him of the Glory He will have in Heaven. Just as the bride is one with the groom, so the Church will be one with Christ.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
You used the word "with" yourself above. How did you do that and not agree with what I said?
No. You're not identical to Jesus Christ. He is sitting right this minute in a "chair/seat" of authority that you will NEVER sit in yourself.
I know mankind wants to promote themselves but they must humble themselves when they start comparing themselves to Jesus Christ.
Joh 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
Joh 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
Runningman
Active Member
You believe in God; believe in Me as well." means believe in God and in addition to believing in God, believe in Jesus. Clearly means belief in God and Jesus aren't the same things.
civic
Active Member
Equivocating again
praise_yeshua
Active Member
He can't say the same thing about himself. You would think he would actually know what he is and what he isn't.
Children think they can be anything. They soon find out they can't. He is still a child.
Elijah never said "You believe in God, Believe also in me"... He pretends he is Elijah too.
Runningman
Active Member
If God and Jesus were identical, there wouldn't be a command to believe in both of them. Use your common sense.
Doug Brents
Active Member
I never said or insinuated that we who are in Christ are identical to Jesus. Being a fellow heir with Him does not make us God, nor does it make us identical to Him. It means simply that our names are written into the Will so that we will inherit His glory with Him in Heaven.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Then I ask that you stop presenting scenarios that say otherwise.
We are nothing without Christ. He is the power for everything we share in WITH Him.
Some of these people that say these things actually believe they are because of similar misunderstandings. I'm not against you brother.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
We don't teach they are identical. Surely you know this. Maybe you don't.
Doug Brents
Active Member
I have never in this forum (or in any other place or way) stated or insinuated that we who are in Christ are equal with Him in any way. He is God who became man, but we are only man; His creation.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
This "man" you're talking to...... will actually agree with everything you said except for what you just said.
That is how evil men work. They live within the intricacies of human languages. They always "dumb down" a very complex discussion such as the one we just had between us.
You finally agreed with me because we had an extended conversation about the subject. You leave room in what you say to allow this to happen. You will learn not to do this when dealing with evil men such as this.
This is why the dynamic of interaction between one another is so very important. Most people can't go more than 4 to 5 levels deep in most any conversation. They lose interest and start repeating themselves because that is all they know brother. Men love to live in ignorance. They don't want to know because knowledge increases sorrow. There isn't a wise man upon this earth that does not battle what he learns in this life about what he actually is. You show me a man that says what this man says, and I'll show you a man that doesn't want to know himself.
Remember what Job said when he finally saw the Lord? He had heard all about Him..... and when Job finally saw God himself.....He said....
Job 42:1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
Job 42:2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
Job 42:4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
When people start talking about "seeing God".... they forget Job.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Leaving things unsaid in a statement is not the same as claiming evil intent. And there are evil people in the world who will twist, misread, and/or willfully bastardize anything that is said (as Satan did with Scripture when tempting Jesus).
civic
Active Member
I never said identical so why are you twisting my words ?
Runningman
Active Member
Glad you confess that Jesus is not identical to God. Sometimes there is progress with your waking up and it's encouraging to see.
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