The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[Runningman]

That plainspeak assumption about scripture is the unitarian basis for disregarding the deeper scriptures that contradict their own view. You reduce scripture because you cannot understand how a Son speaks to his Father. That may be unnatural for you but others see the cutoff of communication as an undesirable outcome. Maybe the unitarians do not see that has undesirable to that they are willing to cutoff communications.
I cannot accept the reductionist, one-verse unitarianism that you have shared. Again, because you forget it so often, John 17:3 proceeds John 17:5 where Jesus has had glory with the Father before incarnation.


Hmm. You are talking about Christianity. Indeed I seek to stand for the truth and shared that. otherwise, I would not be exposing the deceptive doctrines of the unitarians.

That is evil for you to call the teaching of scripture as from the devil. Similarly, Jesus said those who attribute the work of God to the devil will not be saved.


I guess you are not as little children. Sorry to hear taht

It seems your tactic has changed a little bit this time. Now you are accusing those who repeat Jesus' teachings of being evil, misusing Scripture, misunderstanding family relationships, and twisting Jesus' teachings into blasphemy. Jesus taught his followers in John 15:20,21 that the same kind of things they did to him, they will do to his followers as well. It is eerily similar how closely match the style of Jesus' opponents in their real confrontations with him. You are accusing people on this board of doing evil when they just repeat Jesus' teachings and try to perform outreach for lost trinitarians.

Like Jesus' opponents, you selectively quote Scripture, ignoring John 17:3 about the Father being alone the true God. This is because you seem to think that passages in Scripture do not fit together. It has never been Scripture Versus Scripture, but rather about how Scripture works together harmoniously, something that you do not do. You speak of Scripture as if it were against Jesus, quoting verses in an attempt to deny that Jesus explicitly taught that the Father is alone the true God and the verses in which Jesus spoke of the true God as someone other than himself. It's because you quote parts, but you don't understand the whole because you do not believe Him who sent Jesus, you believe in your arguments and wrongly think they can save you.

Another troubling statement you made reveals a deep spiritual sickness in you. If you cannot recognize that your teachings are from the devil, how will you recognize what it truly from God? I think the answer is clear as Scripture has been placed in front of your eyes repeatedly and there seems to be no effect aside from continuing to mislabel the truth as deception; there is great spiritual danger in that for you. You should take care that in your misguided zeal you do not try to reframe Scripture about the Father's exclusive deity as deception. Children of the kingdom of heaven do not mock what they do not understand, but rather they listen and learn. You are not defending any Scriptural points here.

 

[mikesw]

It seems your tactic has changed a little bit this time. Now you are accusing those who repeat Jesus' teachings of being evil, misusing Scripture, misunderstanding family relationships, and twisting Jesus' teachings into blasphemy. Jesus taught his followers in John 15:20,21 that the same kind of things they did to him, they will do to his followers as well. It is eerily similar how closely match the style of Jesus' opponents in their real confrontations with him. You are accusing people on this board of doing evil when they just repeat Jesus' teachings and try to perform outreach for lost trinitarians.

Like Jesus' opponents, you selectively quote Scripture, ignoring John 17:3 about the Father being alone the true God. This is because you seem to think that passages in Scripture do not fit together. It has never been Scripture Versus Scripture, but rather about how Scripture works together harmoniously, something that you do not do. You speak of Scripture as if it were against Jesus, quoting verses in an attempt to deny that Jesus explicitly taught that the Father is alone the true God and the verses in which Jesus spoke of the true God as someone other than himself. It's because you quote parts, but you don't understand the whole because you do not believe Him who sent Jesus, you believe in your arguments and wrongly think they can save you.

Another troubling statement you made reveals a deep spiritual sickness in you. If you cannot recognize that your teachings are from the devil, how will you recognize what it truly from God? I think the answer is clear as Scripture has been placed in front of your eyes repeatedly and there seems to be no effect aside from continuing to mislabel the truth as deception; there is great spiritual danger in that for you. You should take care that in your misguided zeal you do not try to reframe Scripture about the Father's exclusive deity as deception. Children of the kingdom of heaven do not mock what they do not understand, but rather they listen and learn. You are not defending any Scriptural points here.

you fit a few correct points about scripture but mess overall. You speak of scripture working harmoniously but you seem to achieve that by omitting the passages that don't fit your unitarian beliefs.

 

[Runningman]

you fit a few correct points about scripture but mess overall. You speak of scripture working harmoniously but you seem to achieve that by omitting the passages that don't fit your unitarian beliefs.

Your anti-Christ attitude and denials of the Father's exclusive deity are noted.

Your continual denials about Jesus' plain teachings about the Father being alone the true God seem to be never ending:

Jesus plainly taught his followers that the Only God is known as the Father (Matthew 19:17; Mark 10:18; John 5:44; John 8:54; John 17:3; John 20:17)

Jesus plainly speaks of or to the Only God as someone other than himself (Matthew 6:9; Matthew 7:21; Matthew 10:32; Matthew 11:25; Matthew 18:10; Matthew 24:36; Matthew 26:39; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 14:36; Mark 15:34; Luke 6:12; Luke 22:42; Luke 23:46; John 5:19; John 5:23–24; John 5:26; John 5:30; John 6:38; John 7:28–29; John 8:16; John 8:42; John 8:54; John 10:29; John 12:49; John 13:3; John 14:28; John 16:28; John 17:1–26; John 20:17; Matthew 28:18)

 

[mikesw]

Your anti-Christ attitude and denials of the Father's exclusive deity are noted.

Your continual denials about Jesus' plain teachings about the Father being alone the true God seem to be never ending:

Jesus plainly taught his followers that the Only God is known as the Father (Matthew 19:17; Mark 10:18; John 5:44; John 8:54; John 17:3; John 20:17)

Jesus plainly speaks of or to the Only God as someone other than himself (Matthew 6:9; Matthew 7:21; Matthew 10:32; Matthew 11:25; Matthew 18:10; Matthew 24:36; Matthew 26:39; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 14:36; Mark 15:34; Luke 6:12; Luke 22:42; Luke 23:46; John 5:19; John 5:23–24; John 5:26; John 5:30; John 6:38; John 7:28–29; John 8:16; John 8:42; John 8:54; John 10:29; John 12:49; John 13:3; John 14:28; John 16:28; John 17:1–26; John 20:17; Matthew 28:18)

I will try to stay away from this kind of hostile exchange. It is going nowhere good at the moment.

 

[Doug Brents]

The Greek word for genealogy is genesis and it means origin, source. So the source or origin of Jesus was from the lineage of Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, David, etc. God did not originate from Abraham or Jacob or Isaac or David!

That is the origin of His human body. But His spirit and His soul came from Heaven, and existed there with the Father and all the glory of the Father before Creation.

Mary was of the lineage of David - God created Jesus within the womb of Mary therefore Jesus is a descendant of David. 2 Samuel 7 was fulfilled in Jesus - When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son.......And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.’” Where in the birth records does scripture say Jesus descended from heaven into Mary's womb?

It does not say it in the birth record of Jesus. But it does say it in John 3:13, John 6:38, John 16:28, and other passages.

God had a plan for the redemption of humanity. The plan originated in his mind, i.e. his foreknowledge. In that plan, God's Son would receive glory, the glory God had promised before the world existed, the glory God had in store for him. Jesus would receive that promised glory, enter his glory, receive glorification after his suffering, death, resurrection and ascension to the right hand of God his Father when he was crowned with glory and honor.

That is a great thought, and very well articulated, but it is wrong. Because Jesus didn't just receive glory after His suffering, death, resurrection and ascension; He had the same glory as the Father before the world was created, just as John 20:5 tells us.

I disagree and have used scripture to show when Christ would enter into his glory and when he was crowned with glory and honor - You're hung up on John 17:5 - yes, he had glory with the Father before the world existed - the glory that he was going to receive when he accomplished what God gave him to do.......Just like we have the glory Christ has given us but it is in store for us through his promise in John 17:22.

We didn't have that glory before the world was created. The glory we will receive is ours if we trust in Jesus during this life, but we didn't have it before we were born. Jesus did.

If Jesus was an angel then Jesus could have been speaking from the bush but Jesus is not an angel.

Correct, Jesus is not an angel, He is God, the I AM!

Correct there is no analogy of a Triune God because a Triune God does not exist.

Prove it. You cannot, because Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and the Father is God.

Does scripture talk about an immortal soul or does it talk about sleep as a metaphor for death?
If my immortal soul, my spiritual body is already in heaven what sense is their in a resurrection - why a resurrection at all?

The fact that our spirit will sleep between our death and our resurrection is immaterial. Our soul is immortal, because either it will spend the rest of eternity with Satan in Hell, or it will spend the rest of eternity in Heaven with God. Our soul will not cease to exist.

But God is three persons in one --- my body is not a person like the Father is supposedly a 'person' the first person of the Trinity. My soul is not a person like the Son is supposedly a 'person' the second person of the Trinity.
And my spirit is not a person like the Holy Spirit is supposedly a 'person', the third person of the Trinity ---- a Triune God who is supposedly ONE God. Your analogy doesn't work.

Just because you are incapable of separating yourself into your constituent parts does not mean that God can't either.

 

[Runningman]

I will try to stay away from this kind of hostile exchange. It is going nowhere good at the moment.

You would have done better to quit while you're ahead instead of continuing to argue against Jesus' explicit and plain teachings about the Father alone being the true God. I trust you will not do that again. There can be a point where continuing to argue against Scripture brings condemnation upon you, especially after it is clear you are an enemy of the Bible. I recommend you start getting some Amens in your vocabulary.

 

[amazing grace]

That is the origin of His human body. But His spirit and His soul came from Heaven, and existed there with the Father and all the glory of the Father before Creation.

That is the origin of his human body together with that which constitutes up a whole, complete person, i.e. a human being of body, soul and spirit.

It does not say it in the birth record of Jesus. But it does say it in John 3:13, John 6:38, John 16:28, and other passages.

no one has ascended into heaven except he who descended (came down from heaven KJV)...... No one has ascended into heaven except he, Jesus who came from God, i.e. God being his source via conception and birth.
I have come down from heaven to do the will of him who sent me......Who sent him? Is Jesus the same as the one 'who sent him'?
Jesus was sent by God, i.e. God being his source via conception and birth.
I came down from the Father......How did he come down from the Father? Jesus came from the Father, i.e. God being his source via conception and birth. These verses do not contradict the birth records of Jesus --- they are synonymous with the birth records. It is HOW Jesus came from heaven, sent by God, come from the Father.
Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc. but a descendant FROM Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc.
God is not a descendant of ANYONE ---

That is a great thought, and very well articulated, but it is wrong. Because Jesus didn't just receive glory after His suffering, death, resurrection and ascension; He had the same glory as the Father before the world was created, just as John 20:5 tells us.

We didn't have that glory before the world was created. The glory we will receive is ours if we trust in Jesus during this life, but we didn't have it before we were born. Jesus did.

I explained what I thought about John 17:5.
Correct, we didn't receive the glory Jesus gave us before the foundation of the world but we received it and have had it from the time Jesus 'gave' it to us at John 17:22 until the day we 'enter' into that glory the same as Jesus was given glory from before the world existed yet he didn't enter that glory until he ascended and was crowned with glory and honor.

Correct, Jesus is not an angel, He is God, the I AM!

Nope. In Exodus 3:14 I AM is not the name the people of Israel were to remember from generation to generation. LORD, aka Yahweh was the name by which the people of Israel were to remember the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, from generation to generation. If at John 8:58 Jesus is saying he is God, i.e. I AM then Jesus is the Father.

Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah. If at John 8:58 Jesus is saying he is God, i.e. I AM then Jesus is the Father.

Prove it. You cannot, because Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and the Father is God.

Any place where scripture speaks of God as being ONE and God is spoken about with singular verbs, adjectives, pronouns show the singularity of God and negates God being a trinity or triune being at all.

The fact that our spirit will sleep between our death and our resurrection is immaterial. Our soul is immortal, because either it will spend the rest of eternity with Satan in Hell, or it will spend the rest of eternity in Heaven with God. Our soul will not cease to exist.

The concept of an immortal soul, an eternal essence that survives bodily death, primarily originated in ancient Egyptian and Babylonian beliefs, later popularized by Greek philosophers like Plato. It was adopted into Western religious thought through Christian philosophers influenced by Platonism, rather than direct Old Testament teachings. AI

Plato (428-348 B.C.), the Greek philosopher and student of Socrates, taught that the body and the "immortal soul" separate at death. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia comments on ancient Israel's view of the soul: "We are influenced always more or less by the Greek, Platonic idea that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal. Such an idea is utterly contrary to the Israelite consciousness and is nowhere found in the Old Testament" (1960, Vol. 2, "Death," p. 812).

Secular history reveals that the concept of the immortality of the soul is an ancient belief embraced by many pagan religions. But it's not a biblical teaching and is not found in either the Old or New Testaments.

Just because you are incapable of separating yourself into your constituent parts does not mean that God can't either.

Repeat:
But God is three persons in one --- my body is not a person like the Father is supposedly a 'person' the first person of the Trinity. My soul is not a person like the Son is supposedly a 'person' the second person of the Trinity.
And my spirit is not a person like the Holy Spirit is supposedly a 'person', the third person of the Trinity ---- a Triune God who is supposedly ONE God. Your analogy doesn't work........

God does not have parts.

 

[Doug Brents]

That is the origin of his human body together with that which constitutes up a whole, complete person, i.e. a human being of body, soul and spirit.

No, grace, Jesus' body started at His conception, but His soul/spirit did not start then. It was in Heaven with God, or else He could not have descended from God.

no one has ascended into heaven except he who descended (came down from heaven KJV)...... No one has ascended into heaven except he, Jesus who came from God, i.e. God being his source via conception and birth.

God is the source of all conceptions and births. He is the source of all life. But no one other than Jesus descended from Heaven like Jesus did. Our souls did not exist prior to our conception, but Jesus' soul did exist before His conception/incarnation.

I have come down from heaven to do the will of him who sent me......Who sent him? Is Jesus the same as the one 'who sent him'?
Jesus was sent by God, i.e. God being his source via conception and birth.

God the Father sent God the Son. Jesus was God before He descended from Heaven to Earth.

I came down from the Father......How did he come down from the Father? Jesus came from the Father, i.e. God being his source via conception and birth. These verses do not contradict the birth records of Jesus --- they are synonymous with the birth records. It is HOW Jesus came from heaven, sent by God, come from the Father.
Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc. but a descendant FROM Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc.
God is not a descendant of ANYONE ---

The deity of Jesus (His soul/spirit) is not the descendant of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David, in that you are correct. But the human (body) part of Jesus did descend from them.

I explained what I thought about John 17:5.
Correct, we didn't receive the glory Jesus gave us before the foundation of the world but we received it and have had it from the time Jesus 'gave' it to us at John 17:22 until the day we 'enter' into that glory the same as Jesus was given glory from before the world existed yet he didn't enter that glory until he ascended and was crowned with glory and honor.

Again, you contradict Scripture. Jesus did have His glory before Creation. John 17:5 says that He HAD glory with the Father before Creation. Not that He had the promise of it.

Nope. In Exodus 3:14 I AM is not the name the people of Israel were to remember from generation to generation. LORD, aka Yahweh was the name by which the people of Israel were to remember the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, from generation to generation. If at John 8:58 Jesus is saying he is God, i.e. I AM then Jesus is the Father.

Exo 3:14 does not say it was the Father speaking. It say God was speaking. John 8:58 says that Jesus is claiming to be the one speaking from the Bush.

Any place where scripture speaks of God as being ONE and God is spoken about with singular verbs, adjectives, pronouns show the singularity of God and negates God being a trinity or triune being at all.

But Scripture also speaks of God in the plural a few times in Genesis. And several of the NT authors clearly ascribe deity to Jesus. Your continual denial does not change these facts.

The concept of an immortal soul, an eternal essence that survives bodily death, primarily originated in ancient Egyptian and Babylonian beliefs, later popularized by Greek philosophers like Plato. It was adopted into Western religious thought through Christian philosophers influenced by Platonism, rather than direct Old Testament teachings.

Secular history reveals that the concept of the immortality of the soul is an ancient belief embraced by many pagan religions. But it's not a biblical teaching and is not found in either the Old or New Testaments.

Will the soul ever cease to exist? No.
Is Hell not an eternal/everlasting/unending punishment for the goats? Is Heaven not an eternal/everlasting/unending paradise for those who are in Christ Jesus? Yes, to both.
So then, the soul is immortal (having a beginning but no ending). God is eternal (having no beginning and no ending). Jesus is eternal. The Holy Spirit is eternal.

 

[amazing grace]

No, grace, Jesus' body started at His conception, but His soul/spirit did not start then. It was in Heaven with God, or else He could not have descended from God.
God is the source of all conceptions and births. He is the source of all life. But no one other than Jesus descended from Heaven like Jesus did. Our souls did not exist prior to our conception, but Jesus' soul did exist before His conception/incarnation.

No.....Jesus is not just a body but a complete human being and a complete human being is composed of body and soul and spirit.
You are portraying him as something besides a human being.

He didn't 'descend' from God as in 'floating down from heaven and landing in Mary's womb' but BECAUSE he was conceived by the power of God; he came from God, he was sent by God, he came from the Father --- this phrase here in James 1----- Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father means the same thing. It doesn't mean that gifts fall out of heaven but that they come from above sent through the Father, i.e. God is the source of every good gift and every perfect gift.

God is not the source of all conceptions and births. He set up the 'program' by which we are conceived but my parents are the source of my conception and birth.

God the Father sent God the Son. Jesus was God before He descended from Heaven to Earth.

Nope, God did not send God.

The deity of Jesus (His soul/spirit) is not the descendant of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David, in that you are correct. But the human (body) part of Jesus did descend from them.

Jesus is a direct descendant of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David.
Jesus had to be a direct descendant of David in order to be the Messiah.

Again, you contradict Scripture. Jesus did have His glory before Creation. John 17:5 says that He HAD glory with the Father before Creation. Not that He had the promise of it.

Again, you do not understand the use of the language being used. He had glory with the Father before creation - to you that means he literally preexisted with the Father where he had glory. AND you are ignoring that Jesus gave us the glory he was given - Do you have that glory yet?

In my understanding of an existence in the mind and plans of God where Jesus is speaking prophetically, assured of the glory he will receive after his death, because it was promised to him before the world was. That glory being "to be with the Father," or "to sit at my right hand" --- crowned with glory and honor.

Exo 3:14 does not say it was the Father speaking. It say God was speaking. John 8:58 says that Jesus is claiming to be the one speaking from the Bush.

Now you really are reading into the scripture! The voice speaking from the burning bush was that of the angel of the LORD, the agent sent by Yahweh speaking in the name of Yahweh AS Yahweh with Yahweh's full authority.

But Scripture also speaks of God in the plural a few times in Genesis. And several of the NT authors clearly ascribe deity to Jesus. Your continual denial does not change these facts.

Yes, out of approximately 34,000 verses in the Bible there are 4 instances where the plural we, us, our are used but they do not indicate a triune God or that God was speaking to 'other persons' in himself but probably speaking to his angels.
There are a few verses in the NT where the title God is used in reference to Jesus but that doesn't make him Yahweh, Almighty God or the Most High God.......we know that Jesus said his Father was the only true God.

Will the soul ever cease to exist? No.
Is Hell not an eternal/everlasting/unending punishment for the goats? Is Heaven not an eternal/everlasting/unending paradise for those who are in Christ Jesus? Yes, to both.
So then, the soul is immortal (having a beginning but no ending). God is eternal (having no beginning and no ending). Jesus is eternal. The Holy Spirit is eternal.

The Bible speaks nothing about an immortal soul. Go to Biblegateway.com and put 'immortal soul' into the search bar, see what you get = 0.

 

[Doug Brents]

No.....Jesus is not just a body but a complete human being and a complete human being is composed of body and soul and spirit.

I never said He was just a body. I said His body is human, but His spirit and soul came from Heaven, and were there with God (the Father) before Creation.

You are portraying him as something besides a human being.

He is certainly a human being, but He is more than JUST a human being.

He didn't 'descend' from God as in 'floating down from heaven and landing in Mary's womb' but BECAUSE he was conceived by the power of God; he came from God, he was sent by God, he came from the Father --- this phrase here in James 1----- Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father means the same thing. It doesn't mean that gifts fall out of heaven but that they come from above sent through the Father, i.e. God is the source of every good gift and every perfect gift.

He certainly is. But again, you misunderstand (Is it because you cannot comprehend? Or is it because you don't want to understand?). Jesus had the glory of God with God before descending from Heaven. He tells us many times that He came from above (with the Father). If He was just a "good gift" from above, then He wouldn't know that He had been with the Father, possessed the glory of the Father, and desire return to the Father, as He did.

Further, God does not share His glory with anyone (Isa 42:8). So either that is a lie, or Jesus lied when He asked that the glory He had with the father be returned to Him.

God is not the source of all conceptions and births. He set up the 'program' by which we are conceived but my parents are the source of my conception and birth.

Are you not also a "good gift"? Yet you just said that all good gifts come from the Father. It doesn't matter if God "set up the 'program' by which we are conceived" or whether He interacts directly with each embryo; He is responsible for the creation of each and every soul that is conceived.

Jesus is a direct descendant of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David.
Jesus had to be a direct descendant of David in order to be the Messiah.

No debate or question about this. Of course this is so, because that is what God prophesied from the OT.
But again, that doesn't mean that His spirit is descended from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David. His spirit predates Adam, because He was there with the Father before Creation.

Again, you do not understand the use of the language being used. He had glory with the Father before creation - to you that means he literally preexisted with the Father where he had glory.

In my understanding of an existence in the mind and plans of God where Jesus is speaking prophetically, assured of the glory he will receive after his death, because it was promised to him before the world was. That glory being "to be with the Father," or "to sit at my right hand" --- crowned with glory and honor.

Again, willful blindness. You refuse to see even when it is placed before you.

Now you really are reading into the scripture! The voice speaking from the burning bush was that of the angel of the LORD, the agent sent by Yahweh speaking in the name of Yahweh AS Yahweh with Yahweh's full authority.

Yes, out of approximately 34,000 verses in the Bible there are 4 instances where the plural we, us, our are used but they do not indicate a triune God or that God was speaking to 'other persons' in himself but probably speaking to his angels.

Are the angels made in God's image?

There are a few verses in the NT where the title God is used in reference to Jesus but that doesn't make him Yahweh, Almighty God or the Most High God.......we know that Jesus said his Father was the only true God.

And the use of titles that ONLY belong to God, used in reference to Jesus, doesn't make you even blink?

The Bible speaks nothing about an immortal soul. Go to Biblegateway.com and put 'immortal soul' into the search bar, see what you get = 0.

Does it matter that Scripture doesn't use that phrase? Not in the least. Answer the questions I posed above (repeated here):
Will sinners spend the rest of eternity in Hell?
Will saints spend the rest of eternity in Heaven?
Will ANY spirit cease to exist?

 

[amazing grace]

I never said He was just a body. I said His body is human, but His spirit and soul came from Heaven, and were there with God (the Father) before Creation.

He is certainly a human being, but He is more than JUST a human being.

This is what you said: "Jesus' body started at His conception, but His soul/spirit did not start then."
You cannot separate a human being into parts like that.
My child, a human being was composed of body and soul and spirit, a complete human being when the child was born.
Mary conceived a complete human being, Jesus, consisting of a body and soul and spirit. He descended from heaven, aka came from God, aka sent by the Father, aka came from above, being conceived in the womb of Mary through the power of the Most High. We are Jesus' brothers. He is a human being, a man, an anthropos.

He certainly is. But again, you misunderstand (Is it because you cannot comprehend? Or is it because you don't want to understand?). Jesus had the glory of God with God before descending from Heaven. He tells us many times that He came from above (with the Father). If He was just a "good gift" from above, then He wouldn't know that He had been with the Father, possessed the glory of the Father, and desire return to the Father, as He did.

Further, God does not share His glory with anyone (Isa 42:8). So either that is a lie, or Jesus lied when He asked that the glory He had with the father be returned to Him.

YES, Jesus had glory with God before the world existed through God's foreknowledge. It was in God's plans for the redemption of mankind that Jesus should suffer and enter into his glory which was prophetically spoken of throughout the OT scripture.
Jesus read and learned about that prophesied glory that he had which was foretold in scripture and he expounded on those scriptures to the two on the road to Emmaeus ----- how Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory.

I am not saying God shared his glory with anyone ---- Jesus suffered, died, resurrected, was exalted and seated at the right hand of God crowned with glory and honor of his own --- having accomplished the work that the Father gave him to do.

I am not comparing the Messiah to a 'good gift'. The verse was an example of things coming from God being spoken of as coming down from heaven. Is it just that you can't comprehend or is it because you don't want to understand?

Are you not also a "good gift"? Yet you just said that all good gifts come from the Father. It doesn't matter if God "set up the 'program' by which we are conceived" or whether He interacts directly with each embryo; He is responsible for the creation of each and every soul that is conceived.
No debate or question about this. Of course this is so, because that is what God prophesied from the OT. But again, that doesn't mean that His spirit is descended from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David. His spirit predates Adam, because He was there with the Father before Creation.

Am I a 'good gift'? I don't think that is what is meant by James 1:17. I think it's more in line with spiritual matters, or things related to the spirit, spiritual gifts, spiritual wisdom, spiritual knowledge etc. but that's just my own opinion.

Again, I mentioned James 1:17 purely for the phrase 'comes down from above, from the Father' showing that 'comes down from above' means came from the Father, sent from God, came from God, etc.

A human being, a complete person, a whole person consist of a body and soul and spirit. You are not a human being without all components. You have Jesus so different from humanity but yet scripture says he was made like us in every way.

Again, willful blindness. You refuse to see even when it is placed before you.

As do you.

Are the angels made in God's image?

I don't know if angels are made in God's image and neither do you.
Is God Spirit? Are angels spirit beings?

And the use of titles that ONLY belong to God, used in reference to Jesus, doesn't make you even blink?

No, it doesn't. Is 'God' a title that only belongs to God?

Does it matter that Scripture doesn't use that phrase? Not in the least. Answer the questions I posed above (repeated here):
Will sinners spend the rest of eternity in Hell?
Will saints spend the rest of eternity in Heaven?
Will ANY spirit cease to exist?

Yes, it matters whether a term, a phrase, or words are scriptural or not.
At the judgment those found righteous will spend eternity on earth ---- But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. [2 Peter 3:13]
Those found unrighteous - But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” [Rev. 21:8]
Oh, now you change using 'soul' and use 'spirit' instead! LOL.......
And this depends upon what you believe 'spirit' here to mean....... and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. [Ecc. 12:7]

 

[Doug Brents]

This is what you said: "Jesus' body started at His conception, but His soul/spirit did not start then."
You cannot separate a human being into parts like that.

Jesus, you can.

My child, a human being was composed of body and soul and spirit, a complete human being when the child was born.

When he/she was conceived you mean? Jesus' spirit and spirit were not created at the moment of conception as your child's soul and spirit were. His soul and spirit came from Heaven where He had lived with the Father from eternity past to His conception.

Mary conceived a complete human being, Jesus, consisting of a body and soul and spirit. He descended from heaven, aka came from God, aka sent by the Father, aka came from above, being conceived in the womb of Mary through the power of the Most High. We are Jesus' brothers. He is a human being, a man, an anthropos.

He is indeed fully human, born of a woman, able to hunger, morn, lust, be angry, etc. But His spirit was fully God, responsible for Creation, being the light and life of the world.

YES, Jesus had glory with God before the world existed through God's foreknowledge.

Nice try, but way short of the mark. I'm not even going to respond to any of the rest of your blathering. Your entire doctrine is contrary to the explicit statement of Scripture: the Word is God, the Word became a man (put on flesh), and we know that man as Jesus on Nazareth. That is the bedrock of Scripture. That is the most explicit, reliable, unimpeachable statement of Jesus' divinity in Scripture. Anything else you read in Scripture must be balanced against John 1. Is God one? Absolutely. Are there three that are in that one? Again, absolutely. How can that be? No clue, but that is what we have to come to grips with.

You are unworthy... Next.

 

[amazing grace]

Jesus, you can.
When he/she was conceived you mean? Jesus' spirit and spirit were not created at the moment of conception as your child's soul and spirit were. His soul and spirit came from Heaven where He had lived with the Father from eternity past to His conception.
He is indeed fully human, born of a woman, able to hunger, morn, lust, be angry, etc. But His spirit was fully God, responsible for Creation, being the light and life of the world.

Are you sure you have read the Bible?

Nice try, but way short of the mark. I'm not even going to respond to any of the rest of your blathering. Your entire doctrine is contrary to the explicit statement of Scripture: the Word is God, the Word became a man (put on flesh), and we know that man as Jesus on Nazareth. That is the bedrock of Scripture. That is the most explicit, reliable, unimpeachable statement of Jesus' divinity in Scripture. Anything else you read in Scripture must be balanced against John 1. Is God one? Absolutely. Are there three that are in that one? Again, absolutely. How can that be? No clue, but that is what we have to come to grips with.

You are unworthy... Next.

“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it...... [Acts 22-24]

Jesus suffering, death, resurrection, and exaltation - being crowned with glory and honor was according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God just as all things prophetically given us are in God's foreknowledge and plans.

according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, [1 Peter 1:2,3]

According to God's definite plan and foreknowledge, through obedience produced by the spirit for obedience and sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ: according to his great mercy - we are born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.....

but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. [1 Peter 1:19-21]

According to God's definite plan and foreknowledge, we are granted remission of sins by the precious blood of Christ.
Jesus' suffering and sacrifice was foreknown before the foundation of the world in God's definite plan and foreknowledge.
It is through him that we are believers in God who raised him from the dead and gave him the glory promised him - Our faith and hope are in God.

I will be judged by Jesus' words.......The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. ...... and I have not rejected who he is - the Son of God, the Messiah.

 

[amazing grace]

<snip>
Nice try, but way short of the mark. I'm not even going to respond to any of the rest of your blathering. Your entire doctrine is contrary to the explicit statement of Scripture: the Word is God, the Word became a man (put on flesh), and we know that man as Jesus on Nazareth. That is the bedrock of Scripture. That is the most explicit, reliable, unimpeachable statement of Jesus' divinity in Scripture. Anything else you read in Scripture must be balanced against John 1. Is God one? Absolutely. Are there three that are in that one? Again, absolutely. How can that be? No clue, but that is what we have to come to grips with.

You are unworthy... Next.

Don't you mean that John 1 is the bedrock of Trinitarians? How is John 1 the bedrock of Scripture?

The author's purpose statement of the Gospel of John is: but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. The purpose of the Gospel of John is NOT knowing that Jesus is God, or Jesus is God 'put on flesh', or Jesus is a shell of a human being appearing to be human yet housing the Almighty God --- It is knowing that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God.

So, no John 1:1 should not contradict John 20:31 and does not intend for us to come away with the concept that Jesus is God......
Balancing scripture with the understanding "Jesus is God" read into John 1:1 - distorts the whole of scripture.

The bedrock of Scripture is Deuteronomy 6:4, the Shema. Hear, O Israel: Yahweh our God, Yahweh is one.

Then there is Peter's response to the identity of Jesus: Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. .... I would come more to saying these two verses are the bedrock of scripture and balancing scripture against these will illuminate and harmonize scripture.

 

[Doug Brents]

Don't you mean that John 1 is the bedrock of Trinitarians? How is John 1 the bedrock of Scripture?

Nope. The deity of Jesus Christ is paramount in our salvation. If He was only a man then He did not have the capacity to save us all.

 

[amazing grace]

Nope. The deity of Jesus Christ is paramount in our salvation. If He was only a man then He did not have the capacity to save us all.

WHERE does it say: 'If you confess with you mouth that Jesus, the second person of the Trinity, is God you shall be saved'?
WHERE does it say: If you do not believe in a Triune God you shall not be saved?
WHERE does it say: that whoever believes he is the second person of the Trinity may have eternal life...... For God so loved the world, that he gave the second person of the Trinity, that whoever believes in the second person of the Trinity should not perish but have eternal life.

How is it that a man can condemn us all but a man cannot save us all?

 

[Doug Brents]

WHERE does it say: 'If you confess with you mouth that Jesus, the second person of the Trinity, is God you shall be saved'?
WHERE does it say: If you do not believe in a Triune God you shall not be saved?
WHERE does it say: that whoever believes he is the second person of the Trinity may have eternal life...... For God so loved the world, that he gave the second person of the Trinity, that whoever believes in the second person of the Trinity should not perish but have eternal life.

John 8:23-24 - "And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.”"
Unless you believe that I am ... (what)? There is no "what". Jesus is again citing Exo 3, and God's use of the phrase "I AM" as His name, and assuming that name for Himself. Unless you believe that Jesus is God, you will die in your sins.
Does John 1:1 say that the Logos is God?
Does John 1:14 say that the Logos put on flesh and became a man that the Apostles knew?
Does John 1 go on to tell us that the man in the flesh that the Logos became was Jesus?
Since the answer to these three questions are all "YES", then the only conclusion a reasonable person can make is that Jesus is God.

How is it that a man can condemn us all but a man cannot save us all?

One man brought sin into the world, and because sin is in the world, all men have sinned. You are not condemned because of Adam's sin. You are condemned because of your own sin. But Jesus purity is transferred directly to each person who trusts in Him, not because of their own purity, but because of His. If He were finite, then there would be a finite salvation He could provide. But because He is infinite, He has infinite power and authority to forgive an infinite quantity of sin.

 

[JesusFan]

Don't you mean that John 1 is the bedrock of Trinitarians? How is John 1 the bedrock of Scripture?

The author's purpose statement of the Gospel of John is: but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. The purpose of the Gospel of John is NOT knowing that Jesus is God, or Jesus is God 'put on flesh', or Jesus is a shell of a human being appearing to be human yet housing the Almighty God --- It is knowing that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God.

So, no John 1:1 should not contradict John 20:31 and does not intend for us to come away with the concept that Jesus is God......
Balancing scripture with the understanding "Jesus is God" read into John 1:1 - distorts the whole of scripture.

The bedrock of Scripture is Deuteronomy 6:4, the Shema. Hear, O Israel: Yahweh our God, Yahweh is one.

Then there is Peter's response to the identity of Jesus: Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. .... I would come more to saying these two verses are the bedrock of scripture and balancing scripture against these will illuminate and harmonize scripture.

the Jewish leaders saw that when Jesus applies those terms of Son of God and Son of man to himself, was claiming to be upon earth a divine messiah, not just a merely human annoited one, as in another King david type, and those claims got him crucified for blasphemy, for him claiming to be a co equal to their God

 

[amazing grace]

John 8:23-24 - "And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.”"
Unless you believe that I am ... (what)? There is no "what". Jesus is again citing Exo 3, and God's use of the phrase "I AM" as His name, and assuming that name for Himself. Unless you believe that Jesus is God, you will die in your sins.

Unless you believe I am WHO......Jews replied WHO ARE YOU? (I guess they didn't know he was Almighty God?)
Jesus: 'Just what I have been telling you from the beginning.' What had he been telling them from the beginning?
God was his Father, he was the Son of God, the Messiah. So unless we believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, we will die in our sins.

Why is it when Jesus says ego eimi he is saying he is God but when others use it (quite frequently), it is just a means of self identification?

Does John 1:1 say that the Logos is God?
Does John 1:14 say that the Logos put on flesh and became a man that the Apostles knew?
Does John 1 go on to tell us that the man in the flesh that the Logos became was Jesus?
Since the answer to these three questions are all "YES", then the only conclusion a reasonable person can make is that Jesus is God.

Yes. the Word was God....... 'theos' here is being used as a adjective therefore it is descriptive of the word -- the word is the full expression of God.
Yes. the logos BECAME flesh ..... conceived in the womb of Mary. Mary gave birth to a son, Jesus, the Son of God and that Son is the full expression of God. The only Son from the Father and that Son came to make known the Father!

The obvious conclusion lining up with the purpose statement of Gospel of John is that Jesus as the logos of God, who fully expressed who God was --- ...... so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. [John 20:31]

One man brought sin into the world, and because sin is in the world, all men have sinned. You are not condemned because of Adam's sin. You are condemned because of your own sin. But Jesus purity is transferred directly to each person who trusts in Him, not because of their own purity, but because of His. If He were finite, then there would be a finite salvation He could provide. But because He is infinite, He has infinite power and authority to forgive an infinite quantity of sin.

One man brought sin into the world.....and with it the condemnation of death ---- Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned. [Romans 5:12] As long as the Lord tarries --- we will die.

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Amen and Amen.

 

[Doug Brents]

Unless you believe I am WHO......Jews replied WHO ARE YOU? (I guess they didn't know he was Almighty God?)
Jesus: 'Just what I have been telling you from the beginning.' What had he been telling them from the beginning?
God was his Father, he was the Son of God, the Messiah. So unless we believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, we will die in our sins.

https://medium.com/hope-youre-curious/what-does-son-of-mean-in-ancient-jewish-contexts-how-should-we-really-understand-son-of-god-5d0c5e787fd2

The link above is to a fairly good article about what it means to be "Son of God".

Why is it when Jesus says ego eimi he is saying he is God but when others use it (quite frequently), it is just a means of self identification?

This has already been explained. Grace, I'm done wasting my time with you.