The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil

[armylngst]

did you not read? the covenant is with Abraham and his "SEED", and not seeds. as in many, listen, Genesis 17:7 "And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee." the seed is Christ, and Christ is not Jewish.

I can read. It says and thy seed after thee in their generations. Generations here is plural because God is speaking of Abraham's descendants. Seed can be singular or plural, so the word their generations being plural, makes seed plural here. What you are looking for is Genesis 22, the promise God made to Abraham for his faith. In that verse, there is no modification of the word seed, and Hebrews says that is because it is singular and speaking of Jesus. And in your seed, all the nations of the Earth shall be blessed. This is where the idea of salvation by faith in Christ comes from. By faith we become descendants of Abraham through Isaac. That is spiritual, not physical descendants. We benefit from the covenant, but we don't have a covenant. That is why Paul and Peter fought so hard against the Judaizers.

ERROR on your part. A. the church is neither Jew nor gentile. and B. no, the Jews are not the chosen people of God only. NOW THINK, another word for chosen is "ELECT" so only Jews are the elect? no. my God people are you reading your bibles.

They are. Or the prophecy that says that God will call those who are not His people, His people is meaningless. You are making the same error as Jeremiah5. There is no requirement to follow the law or the covenant to be saved, for salvation is by faith. Israel is God's chosen people. Why? It is through God's chosen people that God sent His Son to Earth. As God has said more than once in scripture, being part of this group of people does not equate to salvation. It just means that they are the ones who received and hold the oracles of God, and if they had not violated the covenant, but obeyed, they would have been missionaries to the world. They were supposed to be His people, and they were supposed to take the oracles God had given them, and share/teach them to the world.

did you hear what you said? "This distinction Gentiles/Jews, the church/the nation of Israel, will continue until God completes His reconciliation with His children. (the elect)." well, who do you think the elect are? Oh my God.

And, I thought it would be clear, I said more than once that I speak outside of the church, so please, don't lie about what I said. The church and the nation of Israel are distinct. The church, made up of the elect of God, Gentile and Jew, and the secular nation of Israel made up of non-believing Jews who rejected not only Christ, but God Himself, and the elect of Israel, the remnant, who are not yet saved, who did not reject God, just Jesus because they did not recognize Him. They will recognize Him in the future, which is clear in Zechariah. When I speak of Gentiles/Jews here, I mean those outside of the church, and on an individual basis. The group basis can be Gentiles, but mostly the church (group) and the nation of Israel (group). Why do I make this distinction? Because Paul says in Romans that God has partially blinded and hardened the nation of Israel. Why partial? That is where the individual comes in. Jews are being saved today, even though Israel is partially blinded and hardened. It means the nation as a whole, the group of Jews, will not turn to God, however, individuals can and will.

Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:" (HOUSE and not TRIBE).

That is not even pulling hairs. The house of Israel contained 10 tribes, while the house of Judah contained 2. The house of Israel had been completely removed back in the Old Testament, spread throughout the world, while only the house of Judah remained intact. Also notice that these covenants are solely with the 10 tribes of Israel and 2 tribes of Judah, here recognized by the term house of. You would have to go back to King David and the history to see how even the Israelites/Jews understood the term house of.

Jeremiah 31:32 "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:" Jeremiah 31:33 "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." Jeremiah 31:34 "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." Jeremiah 31:35 "Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:"

Yes, and this He made with the Jews/Israelites. It is not for the Gentiles. If you read prophecy, you will note that it is the Gentiles grabbing onto the cloaks of Jews begging them to teach them about God. (I believe that this may be more related to the millennial kingdom.)

LISTEN CAREFULLY, Hebrews 8:13 "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." ..... Hebrews 9:15 "And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance." A. a testament is a covenant. B. those who are called are the elect. My God how Hard is it?

The first testament is the first covenant, the one made solely with Israel. "he is the mediator of the new testament...for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament..." Who were under the first testament/covenant? The Israelites/Jews. Again this is speaking to the Jews/Israel. The Gentiles are saved by faith. The Israelites are saved by faith, but they are partakers in the Abrahamic covenant. We are only beneficiaries, not a part of it. We reap the blessings that are Israel's. Hence through Abraham's seed, the nations of the world are blessed.

did not God say that he would ... "ESTABLISH" his COVENANT with Abraham SEED? understand, he God ... "Made" a covenant with Abraham and his seed in their generation, (Genesis 17:7 "And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee." ), God "ESTABLISH" his COVENANT with Abraham "SEED", which is Christ. now armylngst is Christ Jewish? no.

Again, that is to the Jews. Seed here is plural because it is modified by "in their generations"... clearly plural. The thing to consider however, is the term covenant of grace. Jesus did die, and blood was shed, and that is a requirement for forming a covenant. However, it may have been the new covenant with Israel, of which Gentiles also reap blessings.

understand, 101G see your ERROR, making a covenant is one thing, but "ESTABLISHING" that covenant is another. this is where you and jeremiah1five make your mistake at. KNOW the difference between in MAKING a Covenant, and in ESTABLISHING a Covenant.

101G.

I in no way believe that Gentiles do not have a place before God. (The elect of...) I just don't buy Jeremiah5's insistence that Gentiles must proselitize, becomes Jews (in that way), and follow the law/covenant in order to be saved. Paul spoke out against that soundly.

 

[jeremiah1five]

How many times have I told you that that doesn't matter. What did God tell Abraham? He promised Abraham that in His seed, which the author of Hebrews said is Jesus Christ, the nations of the WORLD would be blessed. Why do you make God a liar? The nations of the world benefit from the obedience Abraham showed before God. They are blessed by the faith Abraham showed, when they come to Christ in faith. There is no mention of any covenant in any of that, but you REFUSE to recognize that.

The Law is the standard by which sin exists. If the Gentiles are not covered by it, then Gentiles, by definition, cannot sin. If they are covered by it, then they can sin, because the Law points out their sin. However, the Law I speak about here is the 10 commandments. While given to the Jews, I believe God holds the whole world responsible and accountable. Hence we can sin. The civic laws, and ritual laws do not cover the Gentiles, nor do they sentence people to death. They make people unclean, and in a way, considering diseases carried by dead animals and other such things, they really are unclean. There is nothing in the 10 commandments that state that this is for the Jews only. It is not there. Perhaps an 11th commandment?

So you put Jesus UNDER the Law, even though Jesus is God. I got it. And, apparently you have no clue what Jesus meant when He said that He came to fulfill the Law and not to abolish it. To abolish it is to absolve everyone of sin without doing anything. If there is no law, if there is no standard, then there is no sin. Jesus did not come to do that. He came to fulfill the Law. So, what does that mean? If you break the law, what does it take to fulfill it? Better worded, if you break the law, what is the sentence given to fulfill the law? Death. So the fulfillment of the Law is death. Why? For all have sinned. That is, for all have broken God's commandments. So the penalty that fulfills God's Law and God's justice is death. For without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. Without... death. Jesus fulfilled the Law for all who would believe by dying in their place. He took their penalty, which is death, upon Himself. So, He didn't abolish the Law by removing all responsibility and accountability, wiping the slate clean. He fulfilled the Law by dying in the place of His elect. He took their penalty, and paid it in His death on the cross. If you still don't get it, you are beyond hope.

God saves through covenant. The Mosaic Covenant had a mechanism for Israel's salvation and atonement of their sins. It's called Substitutionary Sacrifice. God commanded it and Israel obey it. THAT'S WHY an animal was sacrificed for their sins. It was promised and it was prophesied. The New Covenant doesn't come with a mechanism to atone for sins. This is why Jesus came to FULFILL the Law. The New Covenant prophesied by Jeremiah was only the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled by Christ.

Knowing that Gentiles were never part of the Mosaic Covenant or the Abraham Covenant, neither are Gentiles part of the New Covenant. Jeremiah says that covenant is between God and the House of Israel and the House of Judah = Twelve Tribes.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Of course you do. They tell you just how little you learned from those prophets of Israel.

The prophets of Israel and their words are preserved by Israel. God commanded them to write their words down for Israel's posterity. God never commanded that letters to specific people were to be used four hundred years later and made into a book. That is an act committed by Gentiles. They did that for at least two reasons and the second reason was to validate their new religion. God doesn't need a new religion when He still committed Israel to His Law(s.)

 

[jeremiah1five]

see post above, #57

101G.

Nope. Not gunna do it.

 

[101G]

I can read. It says and thy seed after thee in their generations. Generations here is plural because God is speaking of Abraham's descendants. Seed can be singular or plural, so the word their generations being plural, makes seed plural here.

ERROR, listen and Learn, SEED as in ONE, supportive scripture, Galatians 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." armylngst, do you believe the bible?

And, I thought it would be clear, I said more than once that I speak outside of the church, so please, don't lie about what I said. The church and the nation of Israel are distinct.

Whose lying? are you in the church or not?

Yes, and this He made with the Jews/Israelites. It is not for the Gentiles. If you read prophecy, you will note that it is the Gentiles grabbing onto the cloaks of Jews begging them to teach them about God. (I believe that this may be more related to the millennial kingdom.)

lol, oh dear, the Lord Jesus been teaching Gentiles from day one. why do you think the wise men came? because of Christ... Oh my Lord when will people learn.

The first testament is the first covenant, the one made solely with Israel.

was it ESTABLISH for-EVER? no

God saves through covenant.

and is not the covenant with the Lord Jesus?

Again, that is to the Jews. Seed here is plural because it is modified by "in their generations"... clearly plural.

THINK, are natural men eternal.... (smile)

I in no way believe that Gentiles do not have a place before God. (The elect of...) I just don't buy Jeremiah5's insistence that Gentiles must proselitize, becomes Jews (in that way), and follow the law/covenant in order to be saved. Paul spoke out against that soundly.

well one for the team. and did not Paul by Christ say the "SEED" is Christ?

101G.

 

[101G]

Nope. Not gunna do it.

that's a classic example of satan sons..... (smile)... I ain't going to follow the Lord Jesus the Christ.

Good, more room for those who believe in Jesus the Christ.....

101G.

 

[Olde Tymer]

If Adam had never sinned, the best understanding is that Eve would have either been banished,
or destroyed, with destruction being highly probable.

I sincerely believe that would've been a mistake because Eve wasn't a run of
the mill girl, rather, she was custom fit, i.e. tailor-made especially for Adam.
(Gen 2:18)

Adam would have received a new companion. Adam, apparently, didn't want a new companion,
and only wanted Eve.

In God's estimation, Eve was already the perfect girl for Adam.
_

 

[armylngst]

God saves through covenant. The Mosaic Covenant had a mechanism for Israel's salvation and atonement of their sins. It's called Substitutionary Sacrifice. God commanded it and Israel obey it. THAT'S WHY an animal was sacrificed for their sins. It was promised and it was prophesied. The New Covenant doesn't come with a mechanism to atone for sins. This is why Jesus came to FULFILL the Law. The New Covenant prophesied by Jeremiah was only the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled by Christ.

Knowing that Gentiles were never part of the Mosaic Covenant or the Abraham Covenant, neither are Gentiles part of the New Covenant. Jeremiah says that covenant is between God and the House of Israel and the House of Judah = Twelve Tribes.

God saves through grace and faith. You are unwilling to accept what God has done, and you are fighting against Him. "For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourself it is the gift of God, not of works [you could add, of the Law here if you like] lest any man shouldst boast." In other words, salvation is not by who you are or by merit, but by grace and faith, and is a gift of God. It is not payment. It is not something owed, as you say it is. It is by God's grace, and it is for the world. It first came to the Jews who patently rejected it, and thus damned themselves, and then it moved to the Gentiles, who accepted, and will circle back to the Jews, who will accept. Why do you reject God who says that He will have mercy on ALL? Why do you even try to withstand God? Even Peter knew he could not. He accepted what God was doing, once God unveiled it to the world.

 

[armylngst]

ERROR, listen and Learn, SEED as in ONE, supportive scripture, Galatians 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." armylngst, do you believe the bible?

And if you look at the cross references, not one points to the verse you brought up, or to the verse I brought up. Not one deals with a covenant, but only with promises. All of the above to make an argument that in the end... you didn't make. Gentiles do not have a covenant with God, only Israel does.

Whose lying? are you in the church or not?

The church doesn't have a covenant, the church is the body of Christ. However, Jews in the church are under the covenant by being Jews. That is, they will get the blessings promised to Israel, in relation to the Messiah. That is, Jesus is their King, while for us, He is the Savior. He will reign from Israel.

lol, oh dear, the Lord Jesus been teaching Gentiles from day one. why do you think the wise men came? because of Christ... Oh my Lord when will people learn.

was it ESTABLISH for-EVER? no

and is not the covenant with the Lord Jesus?

Point out a verse that connects a covenant to Jesus. Understand, that in order to have a covenant, there are two bodies, and there is the shedding of blood. Perhaps some proclamation over that shed blood. Point out a verse for that. You will probably find one, but if you can't think of an explicit verse right now, then you need to study more. I'll even give you a hint. Check out Hebrews. It isn't solid, however, it will show why I have said I can't be sure because... [Generally because Jesus did die, and blood was shed, and that is part of the requirements for a covenant.]

THINK, are natural men eternal.... (smile)

No men are eternal. To be eternal means you have NO beginning and NO end. We most certainly have a beginning. We can live eternally, however, we would still only be undying. God is the only Being who has no beginning and no end.

well one for the team. and did not Paul by Christ say the "SEED" is Christ?

It depends on context. The most important being in Genesis 22 where God basically promises salvation to the world through Abraham's seed Jesus. The words being that by his seed the nations of the world would be blessed. So while we are not, and will not be part of the Abrahamic covenant, we benefit, that is we are beneficiaries of the promise made the Abraham by faith. The promise made to Abraham by God because of Abraham's faith.

Now, if I back off from zoomed in look, I believe there may be a covenant, however, it is not what Jeremiah5 has been talking about. This goes back to what I said about Jesus shedding His blood, and the shedding of blood is a requirement for covenants. In Hebrews (I'll do some of the homework for you), it speaks of a figurative application of the blood of Christ to the mercy seat in heaven, which is part of what Moses did on Earth in establishing the Mosaic covenant with Israel. I agree with the term covenant of grace, however, I'm not sure how much support there is in scripture for it being an actual covenant, and not a way of understanding what happened. That would require much study. The problem being that there is no explicit scripture stating a covenant for Gentiles. However, I, again, don't believe that it is required. It would depend upon why you believe God made a covenant with Israel in the first place. I believe it was to set them aside as the ones through whom God would send His Son. As such, He gave them a standard to live by, as the people He chose to bring salvation to the world. He also gave them the Law, which, if they had followed the covenant, they would have been teaching the world about God and His Law.

101G.

 

[armylngst]

I sincerely believe that would've been a mistake because Eve wasn't a run of
the mill girl, rather, she was custom fit, i.e. tailor-made especially for Adam.
(Gen 2:18)




In God's estimation, Eve was already the perfect girl for Adam.
_

I am just going with the whole, what if... scenario. God already determined what would happen is what would happen, and thus the idea of Eve being the only one who sinned was NEVER on the table. God probably didn't even waste time contemplating. I'm pretty sure He already knew, before He sat down to determine everything, what was going to happen. And it isn't right for us to go to far down any particular side path, to avoid going to far and perhaps besmirch God. So I stop with, we can't know what would happen, other than it wouldn't be good for Eve. To step just a little ways, consider if Eve remained, she would be a corrupting influence on creation, which either God would be fine with, or God would not be fine with.

 

[Olde Tymer]

consider if Eve remained, she would be a corrupting influence on creation, which either God
would be fine with, or God would not be fine with.

It appears to me that the Bible portrays Eve as a victim rather than a corrupting
influence. (2Cor 11:3 & 1Tim 2:14)

In my estimation, the corrupting influence in that incident was the Serpent--
a.k.a. the Devil and Satan (Rev 12:9, Rev 20:2) He has the power of death (Heb
2:14) and the ability to tamper with the human body and the human mind in ways
not easily detected. (e.g. Luke 13:16, Mark 5:1-5, and Eph 2:1-2)

* I would just like to know, for my own information, what was the Serpent doing
there in the place and why didn't God step in and put a stop to the incident before
it got out hand?
_

 

[jeremiah1five]

It appears to me that the Bible portrays Eve as a victim rather than a corrupting
influence. (2Cor 11:3 & 1Tim 2:14)

In my estimation, the corrupting influence in that incident was the Serpent--
a.k.a. the Devil and Satan (Rev 12:9, Rev 20:2) He has the power of death (Heb
2:14) and the ability to tamper with the human body and the human mind in ways
not easily detected. (e.g. Luke 13:16, Mark 5:1-5, and Eph 2:1-2)

* I would just like to know, for my own information, what was the Serpent doing
there in the place and why didn't God step in and put a stop to the incident before
it got out hand?
_

Can be.

According to Isaiah, Peter and Jude, the angels that sinned were locked up.

The serpent in the Garden is a serpent, an animal, specifically, a beast of the field the same as a Lion, tiger, bear, wolf, deer, etc. It wasn't Lucifer for Lucifer was locked up before God created man and this was a plain ol' snake, actually, an animal that Eve loved and cared for as she and Adam were caretakers of the Garden and the animals that lived there.

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2 Peter 2:3–4.

 

[armylngst]

It appears to me that the Bible portrays Eve as a victim rather than a corrupting
influence. (2Cor 11:3 & 1Tim 2:14)

In my estimation, the corrupting influence in that incident was the Serpent--
a.k.a. the Devil and Satan (Rev 12:9, Rev 20:2) He has the power of death (Heb
2:14) and the ability to tamper with the human body and the human mind in ways
not easily detected. (e.g. Luke 13:16, Mark 5:1-5, and Eph 2:1-2)

* I would just like to know, for my own information, what was the Serpent doing
there in the place and why didn't God step in and put a stop to the incident before
it got out hand?
_

God used the serpent to conclude a determined event, Adam and Eve's sin. God can do that, unless you don't have a proper view of His sovereignty. If Eve is a victim, that means she wasn't responsible. You are taking a human view of a situation that needs to be seen through the eyes of God. There is no such thing as extenuating circumstances when it comes to sin.

 

[Diserner]

God does not did force his perfect creation to sin, this is a very morally wrong thing to say.

Adam could have stopped Eve easily, thus it was both of their decisions not just one of them.

Obviously, Satan's presence was a test of their obedience and not an accident.

 

[armylngst]

God does not did force his perfect creation to sin, this is a very morally wrong thing to say.

Adam could have stopped Eve easily, thus it was both of their decisions not just one of them.

Obviously, Satan's presence was a test of their obedience and not an accident.

This is what happens when you don't understand just who God is. You are correct, God did not force his perfect creation to sin, he decreed it. It would happen, and God would not control humanity like a puppet. It would happen because God decreed it. Events would unfold and it would happen because God determined it. And thus begins the plan of redemption that God set in place before He even said "Let there be light". God did not tell them to sin, He didn't control them like marrionettes, yet man sinned because God determined it. Now, since that is what happened, then you have to do the work, put in the sweat equity, to understand how that can be, and for that... you have to go back and learn exactly what is meant when we say God is Sovereign. Just what does that mean, and just what does that say about God. Once you understand that, the contradictions fall away.

Satan's fall from glory was also determined, and did play into Adam and Eve's actions. However, that is shallow, and does God a great injustice. It is not simply that. God determined Satan's fall, and the whole world system of sin and Satan's dominion over it, to the cross, and beyond. All determined by God. That which we may never understand is HOW it unfolded. If you go with, well then God had to control humanity like puppets, then you need to go back AGAIN, and study up on the sovereignty of God. I have considered it being that God so created the world, that it is right down to the characters, like in a book. And, like in a book, we react, we live, according to our characteristics/personality. One view of this that we get directly from God is that there are none righteous, no not one, none that do good, and none that seek after God. How do we know that it is ours doing and not God's? The last part of that prophecy. For...they...have...each...gone...their...own...way. Or as Frank Sinatra put it "I did it Myyyyyyyyyy Way."

If you believe in a 7 day creation, and that Adam and Eve existed, and that God created them, then you cannot maintain what you wrote above. It is irrational. The premises for your argument are faulty. I don't even need you to tell me the premises, because the conclusion does not follow from God being the sovereign creator who created Adam and Eve. It follows more from a premise that God found Earth one day, found some hominids, or human like creature, took them and made them HIs own. As such, for Him to exert any kind of control over them is evil. For Him to set some arbitrary standard and say you had better obey may, is outside of His authority. If humans existed outside of God, or Adam and Eve is not true, then there must be a higher power than God, who simply found them already existing. IN which case, God would not be the most powerful Being in the universe. All of this is contrary to what the Bible says. God is the most powerful Being in the world, and this most power Being, instead of simply snapping His fingers and saying, "I give you... Earth, the universe, humanity, etc.", but instead took 7 days, is saying something. It would be beneath Him to say He did it because He had to, but would reveal great glory if He didn't have to, but still specifically did it in 7 days for a reason. That would be... a message.

So while God did not FORCE Adam and Eve to sin, it was determined, so it happened. Adam and Eve could not have stopped what was inevitable due to God's determination. Remember, God created for Himself, He didn't create for us. He made things as they are for us to live in, but creation as a whole was made for Him, He just shares it with us as His created beings.

 

[jeremiah1five]

God used the serpent to conclude a determined event, Adam and Eve's sin. God can do that, unless you don't have a proper view of His sovereignty.

"Conclude a determined event"? What do you mean? Are you saying Adam and the woman were predestined to disobey God?

If Eve is a victim, that means she wasn't responsible.

Victim? I think you are looking at the act of disobedience (eating from the forbidden tree) leaning upon your own understanding. I prefer to look at this "event" (as you claim above), from God's perspective. But first let me take your statement and venture to see if I am understanding what you are proposing:

I would presume you are taking Saul's statement in his letter to Timothy, "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" (1 Timothy 2:14) as excuse for her disobedience, and if so, that by being deceived - whether self-deception or deception by outside influence or force - results or should result in her not being responsible to God for her act of disobedience?
Is this your thinking or conclusion? Have you overlooked this by Saul?
But before we go further, I want to ask a couple of things as our basis before proceeding:

1. Is there a difference between a Law of God and a Command of God? Isn't a Law of God His Commands and the Commands of God Law?
2. What was the condition of the woman before she disobeyed God? Sinner or sinless?

Remember, there are two perspectives in all the Bible: God's perspective in eternal and man's perspective in the temporal.

You are taking a human view of a situation that needs to be seen through the eyes of God. There is no such thing as extenuating circumstances when it comes to sin.

My conclusions entirely.
But I still ask for clarification (above.)

 

[armylngst]

"Conclude a determined event"? What do you mean? Are you saying Adam and the woman were predestined to disobey God?

No, it was determined that they would disobey God. What part of God's sovereignty and purpose in creation are you having difficulty grasping? God is not clueless. God is not sitting on the edge of His throne wondering what happens next. God knew Adam and Eve would sin because He determined that that is what would happen. This is why your whole idea that Adam and Even were created sinful is wrong. They were born without sin, but sin found them, and God determined it to be that way.

Victim? I think you are looking at the act of disobedience (eating from the forbidden tree) leaning upon your own understanding. I prefer to look at this "event" (as you claim above), from God's perspective. But first let me take your statement and venture to see if I am understanding what you are proposing:

If you looked at it from God's perspective you would have never asked the question "Conclude a determined event?" and "Are you saying Adam and the woman were predestined to disobey God?" That shows that you are looking from a human perspective. The serpent was used in the event, and did not cause anything. All actions belong to Adam and Eve. It was determined that it would happen. They were not "predestined." It was determined that what was happening on Earth, and the actions that Adam and Eve took in life would inevitably lead to their sin. So no, they weren't God's puppets. The flow of life led to an inevitable conclusion because it was determined by God. It was still 100% their actions.

I would presume you are taking Saul's statement in his letter to Timothy, "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" (1 Timothy 2:14) as excuse for her disobedience, and if so, that by being deceived - whether self-deception or deception by outside influence or force - results or should result in her not being responsible to God for her act of disobedience?

Um... no. It would definitely be used to show that Adam was not deceived. And no, it isn't an excuse for her disobedience, but since Adam was the one who was given dominion over creation, her sin did not corrupt creation or affect the dominion over creation given to Adam. It was when Adam sinned that his dominion over creation, given by God, caused all creation to be corrupted by sin. The dominion was transferred from Adam to Satan/Lucifer. It was then that the term world came to mean the corrupt world/system under the dominion of Satan. However, God is soereign over all creation, so Satan simply has Earth as a domain for as long as God allows it.

If Adam did not sin, Eve would have simply been held responsible, alone, for what she did, in which it would be her destruction (so she would not corrupt God's creation) or exile. I think it would have been destruction. God would not have allowed any corrupting influence in His creation. However, Adam sinned, and thus plunged all creation into sin, and as we see, God elected not to destroy all He created... yet.

Is this your thinking or conclusion? Have you overlooked this by Saul?
But before we go further, I want to ask a couple of things as our basis before proceeding:

1. Is there a difference between a Law of God and a Command of God? Isn't a Law of God His Commands and the Commands of God Law?

There is a difference, but it is superficial. There is no law that requires baptism for salvation, but it is a command of God.

2. What was the condition of the woman before she disobeyed God? Sinner or sinless?

Sinless, just like Adam. However, you keep leaving out INNOCENT. They were not perfect, they were innocent because they didn't know evil, and didn't know the difference between good and evil. Evil had not corrupted them. Sin had not corrupted them, because they were sinless. It didn't make them like God. They simply were sinless because they had not sinned yet. They had the capacity to sin, which God does not have, nor has He ever had.

Remember, there are two perspectives in all the Bible: God's perspective in eternal and man's perspective in the temporal.

And God can and does handle both. We can only deal with the temporal. However, you keep dragging God down and binding Him to human emotions, human actions, distinctions between peoples, etc. The distinctions exist solely because of sin. It is how God chose it had to be until after the consummation when sin is defeated. At that time, the distinctions vanish, and all, non-Jewish Gentiles, Jews, Greeks (if you want to toss that in), etc, are considered one. When the world finally becomes as God intended it to be.

My conclusions entirely.
But I still ask for clarification (above.)

So, to summarize:
1. Adam and Eve's sin was determined, and living life always flowed to this conclusion. Not puppets. Just living life, but with God having determined it's ultimate course.
2. Adam and Eve were created sinless, but innocent with the capacity to sin. So, not like God. The image they were created in is but a likeness, with various facets being an image (not spitting image or facsimile/duplicate) of God. For instance, God creates from nothing, but we can also create... but only from what is around us. God can reason, we can reason, though with faults unlike God. These are all parts of the image of God, and again, to an inferior degree. It is Jesus, who, even in the Greek word used, is a facsimile of God, a perfect duplicate. Considering He is God, that is to be expected.
3. God is sovereign which means He can do whatever He wants, no matter what you say. If He does something you say He can't because it isn't right, generally, if you take the time to actually research, you will reach the understanding that since God is sovereign... yes He can. You just aren't looking at the situation properly. God did not author sin, and God did not author evil, however, He determined Adam and Eve will sin. God uses sin and uses evil to bring about His purposes in creation. (Creation, the fall, redemption, and ultimate glory.)

I think I could have worded "concluded a determined event" better. It is to say that he is not the cause of the event. He had a part to play, but he was not the cause. Now, in the human view, he is the cause, dump blame on him. However, if you recall, Adam was not deceived, so the onus is completely on Adam. Eve was deceived. That does not mean she wasn't guilty. The point with Eve is she did not hold the position that Adam held, so her action on its own, had no effect on creation. It was Adam's sin after which Adam and Eve noticed the effects of sin entering the world, starting with...oh... we're naked.

 

[jeremiah1five]

No, it was determined that they would disobey God. What part of God's sovereignty and purpose in creation are you having difficulty grasping? God is not clueless. God is not sitting on the edge of His throne wondering what happens next. God knew Adam and Eve would sin because He determined that that is what would happen. This is why your whole idea that Adam and Even were created sinful is wrong. They were born without sin, but sin found them, and God determined it to be that way.

It wasn't because "God knew Adam and Eve would sin because He determined that that is what would happen", God knew they would sin because they were created sinful and sin comes from sinner. There is NO WAY God would share, give, or reduplicate His glory of Sinlessness to man created "of the earth, earthy." Isaiah said, "[God] does not give His glory - of which sinlessness, eternalness, holiness, righteousness, omniscience, omnipotent, etc., to man. It is impossible for God to give His Nature or Deific Attributes away. Can you give away any of your attributes to anyone? No, you can't. And neither could God. To think God could give any aspect of His Nature to a created being is fantastical, an elaborate fantasy. Quite impossible. And even if it was possible for God to give any aspect of His Nature to man that man would have to possess ALL God's Nature and Deific Attributes or he would on this level 'fall short of the glory of God.' The word for that is "sin." AND if God was able to give not only one aspect of His Nature to a created man, then there would be a Father, Son, Holy Spirit and Holy Man ALL equal in power and glory. And a Holy God and a Holy Man cannot sin! Sin does not come from He that is Holy. The last Adam (Christ) PROVED this. He was Holy, He was Righteous, He could not sin for sin cannot come from He that is Holy. Otherwise, we'd be in trouble. God is Holy. How long before God sin if you believe sin comes from holy? But that's your position - that sin comes from holy, right? You believe Adam was created holy and possessing the Nature of Deity/God. Quite impossible. Very impossible. There is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory to NO ONE!

If you looked at it from God's perspective you would have never asked the question "Conclude a determined event?" and "Are you saying Adam and the woman were predestined to disobey God?" That shows that you are looking from a human perspective. The serpent was used in the event, and did not cause anything. All actions belong to Adam and Eve. It was determined that it would happen. They were not "predestined." It was determined that what was happening on Earth, and the actions that Adam and Eve took in life would inevitably lead to their sin. So no, they weren't God's puppets. The flow of life led to an inevitable conclusion because it was determined by God. It was still 100% their actions.

The serpent is created as a "beast of the field" just like a rhino, a bear, a lion, etc. It was a serpent just as the word is defined. It wasn't Lucifer for before man was created the angels that sinned had already been locked up and awaiting judgment - according to Isaiah, Peter, and Jude. God determined they would both sin because as created sinful by God they of course would sin. The man wasn't deceived. He sinned all on his own without any outside influence thus proving sin comes from sinner - NOT Holy.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked" 1 Samuel 24:13.

Um... no. It would definitely be used to show that Adam was not deceived. And no, it isn't an excuse for her disobedience, but since Adam was the one who was given dominion over creation, her sin did not corrupt creation or affect the dominion over creation given to Adam. It was when Adam sinned that his dominion over creation, given by God, caused all creation to be corrupted by sin. The dominion was transferred from Adam to Satan/Lucifer. It was then that the term world came to mean the corrupt world/system under the dominion of Satan. However, God is soereign over all creation, so Satan simply has Earth as a domain for as long as God allows it.

How irresponsible for God to give dominion over His creation to a sinful man. Man wasn't the one God gave dominion over creation. He gave that distinction to Christ. And Christ proved that dominion over creation by commanding fish to gather in the net so numerous that Peter couldn't bring that net to shore.

I see you are posting the textbook response, and I can recognize those textbook answers because I was once fooled by those textbook answers. The creation God created was not sinless. God cannot share or give or reduplicate any aspect of His Sinless Nature to anyone. The creation of the universe was already corrupt and sinful. That's the only way the universe can be created. IF God created the universe sinless then there would be no stars to explode or black holes to suck in light. The sun would be eternal and NEVER run out of fuel but burn hot and bright for eternity, never to explode. There would be no asteroids or comets or any planetary rocks floating around the universe colliding with each other. Nor would the universe expand as it is doing this very minute. Everything would be rotating stationary for eons and eons for all eternity. But death was created in the universe. And the universe is NOT static. It would be inconsistent of God to create a sinless universe - including the earth - and then to curse the ground (earth) as punishment for Adam's sin. This would mean that is all the universe was created sinless that God could NOT curse the ground for He already made/created the universe eternal and oblivious to any curse at all.

If Adam did not sin, Eve would have simply been held responsible, alone, for what she did, in which it would be her destruction (so she would not corrupt God's creation) or exile. I think it would have been destruction. God would not have allowed any corrupting influence in His creation. However, Adam sinned, and thus plunged all creation into sin, and as we see, God elected not to destroy all He created... yet.

So, God punishes the innocent universe for someone else's sin? You claim that Adam's sin brought God's judgment upon all creation? The animals didn't sin. Why should they be cursed to die. They were created sinless according to your false theology. And if sinless as you claim, then they could not be cursed with death which is the punishment for sin! God would be unjust to punish the innocent animals for the sin of someone else - Man.
I think you need to study further the question of sin and creation and man. There is NOTHING God created that is eternal and sinless. Impossible! God does not give His glory of sinlessness or eternalness into created matter.

There is a difference, but it is superficial. There is no law that requires baptism for salvation, but it is a command of God.

Sinless, just like Adam. However, you keep leaving out INNOCENT. They were not perfect, they were innocent because they didn't know evil, and didn't know the difference between good and evil. Evil had not corrupted them. Sin had not corrupted them, because they were sinless. It didn't make them like God. They simply were sinless because they had not sinned yet. They had the capacity to sin, which God does not have, nor has He ever had.

Man can be innocent but still be sinful. As a matter of fact, man was created sinful but innocent. They were innocent UNTIL the command to not eat from the tree exposed their sinfulness.

8 For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Romans 7:8–9.

Man was sinful and innocent. They were not guilty of sin until God commanded "Thou shalt not" (eat from the tree.)

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. Romans 7:10–13.

There you go. Innocent until the commandment came to "Thou shalt not" (eat of it - the tree.)

For when the commandment came - "Thou shalt not" - sin revived and by it (his sinfulness) he died. He didn't even have to do anything. BECAUSE Adam and the woman were created sinful they would have in time eventually died. Why?
Because there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory (Sinlessness, Eternalness, etc) to NO ONE. I think you should believe Isaiah for He speaks for God.

Anyone who has the "capacity" to sin is a sinner. That's why they sinned. The last Adam PROVES this. Christ was Holy, Christ was Sinless, and guess what? He never sinned! Sin does not come from sinlessness and holiness. Sin comes from sinner and Adam and the woman were created sinful which is why they sinned. Eve sinned because she was created a sinner and she sinned. Adam sinned because he was created sinful and sinned.

And God can and does handle both. We can only deal with the temporal. However, you keep dragging God down and binding Him to human emotions, human actions, distinctions between peoples, etc. The distinctions exist solely because of sin. It is how God chose it had to be until after the consummation when sin is defeated. At that time, the distinctions vanish, and all, non-Jewish Gentiles, Jews, Greeks (if you want to toss that in), etc, are considered one. When the world finally becomes as God intended it to be.

God intended man and woman and the universe to be created just as He determined them all to be created: fallen short of God's glory

I think I could have worded "concluded a determined event" better. It is to say that he is not the cause of the event. He had a part to play, but he was not the cause. Now, in the human view, he is the cause, dump blame on him. However, if you recall, Adam was not deceived, so the onus is completely on Adam. Eve was deceived. That does not mean she wasn't guilty. The point with Eve is she did not hold the position that Adam held, so her action on its own, had no effect on creation. It was Adam's sin after which Adam and Eve noticed the effects of sin entering the world, starting with...oh... we're naked.

They didn't notice a thing about their nakedness. Someone ridiculed them in their nakedness. And that someone was a talking serpent/snake - just as the word is defined.

11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? Genesis 3:11.

BOOM! Another false doctrine and heresy shot to hell!

God would not say "Who told thee thou was naked?" if they were not ridiculed for their nakedness. They were naked and unashamed. BUT then someone told them they were naked after being ridiculed, God asked them "WHO told thee thou was naked?" God did. But He didn't ridicule them.

 

[Olde Tymer]

.
It seems likely to me that God easily foresaw the forbidden fruit event ahead of
time, but I seriously doubt that He was involved in its instigation.

However, it also seems likely to me that although God did not determine the event
in advance, He did determine in advance exactly how He was going to react to
it.

FAQ: Why didn't God step in and nip that event in the bud before it got out of
hand?

REPLY: I can only guess.

My first guess would be that Adam was created in the image and likeness of God. In
that capacity Adam was entitled to manage his own affairs, and at the time answer
to no one save the highest of all powers. God could've debated Adam's decision the
way He later argued with Cain's (Gen 4:7) but for reasons thus far known only to
Himself, God chose not to.

My second guess is directly related to the contents of Rom 5:12-21 whereby Bible
readers are informed that Rom 6:23's wages of sin did not become a consequence
till Adam himself tasted the forbidden fruit.

Also in that passage, Jesus Christ's righteousness and obedience are juxtaposed
with Adam's sin and disobedience: which strongly suggests to me that God had a
mysterious purpose in mind when He stood back and did nothing to prevent Adam
from tasting the fruit-- though His purpose may, or may not, seem all that intelligent
to us but may in fact seem to border on lunacy.
_

 

[Diserner]

You are correct, God did not force his perfect creation to sin, he decreed it.

Amen.

Let us never, ever attribute man's sin to God's decree.

Sin was chosen by free will.