The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil

[e v e]

the evil tree is in mystery babylon...
the evil realm
which God called
Death.... and
the realm this earth is part of

the picture is of mystery babylon
in the other reality (not this earth)

earth (this sin realm) would be in the
far western larger branches
... the heliopause of the torus ,
and too small in scale to appear
here

 

[armylngst]

It wasn't because "God knew Adam and Eve would sin because He determined that that is what would happen", God knew they would sin because they were created sinful and sin comes from sinner.

Still denying the sovereignty of God. Adam and Eve cannot be created sinful. To sin is the miss the standard. God created them good, as He said, and they hadn't done anything yet, so... no sin. (Unless you believe God is a sinner, and what comes from Him would thus be sinful. I'm pretty sure you don't believe that.) God determined it, because, if you understand God's sovereignty and that God is the Creator, because that is not only His right, but the position He is in as Creator.

There is NO WAY God would share, give, or reduplicate His glory of Sinlessness to man created "of the earth, earthy."

You really do need to stop with this. None of that is happening. You are deceiving yourself. Man was created sinless in that up to that time, and up to the point that man sinned, man had not sinned. Unlike God (something you seem to have a lack of ability to discern), they were capable of sinning. God cannot sin. So, they are not the same. Man was created innocent. God is NOT innocent in that way. God knows exactly what sin is, because it is everything He is not. Adam and Eve were innocent, which again, is not the same thing. It simply means they had no clue what sin is, because they had not sinned. Once they sinned, they knew exactly what sin was, but only once they sinned.

Isaiah said, "[God] does not give His glory - of which sinlessness, eternalness, holiness, righteousness, omniscience, omnipotent, etc., to man. It is impossible for God to give His Nature or Deific Attributes away.

Again, this doesn't mean anything. It's like, you are arguing with someone in a huge room, by looking at and yelling at the wall behind you.

Can you give away any of your attributes to anyone?

Sure. Are you human, or did your parents have a weasel? Do you have two arms, two legs, two eyes, etc. (well, as the majority of humans do.) You got those attributes from your parents. And, sin. You got that attribute from your father. (Sin is passed on by the fathers, hence Jesus did not have an earthly father. (Other reasons as well.))

No, you can't. And neither could God. To think God could give any aspect of His Nature to a created being is fantastical, an elaborate fantasy.

You leave in a fantasy world, which logic fails to penetrate. Logic is another attribute of God. Logic is anchored in God, hence it never changes.

Quite impossible. And even if it was possible for God to give any aspect of His Nature to man that man would have to possess ALL God's Nature and Deific Attributes or he would on this level 'fall short of the glory of God.' The word for that is "sin." AND if God was able to give not only one aspect of His Nature to a created man, then there would be a Father, Son, Holy Spirit and Holy Man ALL equal in power and glory. And a Holy God and a Holy Man cannot sin! Sin does not come from He that is Holy. The last Adam (Christ) PROVED this. He was Holy, He was Righteous, He could not sin for sin cannot come from He that is Holy. Otherwise, we'd be in trouble. God is Holy. How long before God sin if you believe sin comes from holy? But that's your position - that sin comes from holy, right? You believe Adam was created holy and possessing the Nature of Deity/God. Quite impossible. Very impossible. There is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory to NO ONE!

Why are you wasting time on a argument that was shown to you to be quite irrational. I understand you don't get it, but you should try to get it. God created man in His image. GOD HIMSELF SAID IT, SO PLEASE STOP, STOP, STOP calling God a liar. Please. Again, the word for image speaks of a likeness, where there are facets of one thing found in another, but it is NOT a mirror image, a facsimile or a duplicate. Now, when it comes to Jesus, the word for image in the Greek means exact copy. ALL attributes (not some facets), all perfectly present. You will continue running head first into a brick wall until you understand that we are in the image of God, as some say, fingerprints of God (but a small part), and that image is but a likeness. That likeness, according to some, is found in our ability to create (though not from nothing), to reason, to be rational, etc. It is not all God is. We are not holy, but apparently we can be, since God keeps commanding us to do so. Why? Because He is. We are not eternal, and we can't be, so don't bother trying. We will be immortal, but not eternal, for unlike God, we have a beginning. We are not omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, etc. We do not have God's glory, that is not what being made in His image (given the Hebrew word used for image heree). If anything, it is faint and it's glory that is to God for His wondrous creation.

The serpent is created as a "beast of the field" just like a rhino, a bear, a lion, etc. It was a serpent just as the word is defined. It wasn't Lucifer for before man was created the angels that sinned had already been locked up and awaiting judgment - according to Isaiah, Peter, and Jude. God determined they would both sin because as created sinful by God they of course would sin. The man wasn't deceived. He sinned all on his own without any outside influence thus proving sin comes from sinner - NOT Holy.

We can't be sure what the serpent was. Was it a serpent that was possessed, or perhaps Lucifer in the form of a serpent. Tempting someone is not the same as making them sin. Scripture has already rendered that a moot point when saying that God does not allow the believer to be tempted beyond what they can handle, but has left a way of escape. As long as there is a way of escape, then to fall to temptation is on us. We are responsible to look for and take that way of escape, or we are accountable for the sin, and wholly responsible.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked" 1 Samuel 24:13.

How irresponsible for God to give dominion over His creation to a sinful man. Man wasn't the one God gave dominion over creation. He gave that distinction to Christ. And Christ proved that dominion over creation by commanding fish to gather in the net so numerous that Peter couldn't bring that net to shore.

Wow. Did you just call God irresponsible. Nice. Again, God said it and so it was. And when man sinned, that dominion went to Satan, who is the prince of the power of the air. Now, he only has dominion over what God gave Adam dominion over. And that dominion sits under the sovereignty of God. See Job where Satan has to ask God for permission to torment Job. Also notice that God says, go ahead. Why? A lesson to be taught. It is here that we find that God isn't at all like how you present Him.

I see you are posting the textbook response, and I can recognize those textbook answers because I was once fooled by those textbook answers. The creation God created was not sinless. God cannot share or give or reduplicate any aspect of His Sinless Nature to anyone. The creation of the universe was already corrupt and sinful. That's the only way the universe can be created. IF God created the universe sinless then there would be no stars to explode or black holes to suck in light. The sun would be eternal and NEVER run out of fuel but burn hot and bright for eternity, never to explode. There would be no asteroids or comets or any planetary rocks floating around the universe colliding with each other. Nor would the universe expand as it is doing this very minute. Everything would be rotating stationary for eons and eons for all eternity. But death was created in the universe. And the universe is NOT static. It would be inconsistent of God to create a sinless universe - including the earth - and then to curse the ground (earth) as punishment for Adam's sin. This would mean that is all the universe was created sinless that God could NOT curse the ground for He already made/created the universe eternal and oblivious to any curse at all.

The only way the creation can be sinful is if the Creator is sinful. Like that verse in I Samuel 24:13 Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked. Will sinfulness proceedeth from sinners, right? So if the creation is sinful, then it must have proceeded as such from God, right? Which means you are saying God is a sinner. You are so lost here. The creation cannot be eternal, because it has a beginning. However, it can be never ending because it proceeded from God, who is eternal. Also, they still haven't figured out how the sun works. Now the universe is sinless, but has been corrupted by the actions of Adam because Adam had been given dominion over it. Adam was the federal (WAS... past tense) head over not just humanity, but the creation, in as much as God gave Adam dominion over it. When Adam sinned, he handed that over to Satan. Hence the world is known as Satan's domain, and the world system is his system. The lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and the pride of life, all tools that he uses to blind humanity to God. And humans are more than happy to oblige. The prophecy says that there are none righteous, none who do good, and none who seek after God, because they have all gone their own way.

So, God punishes the innocent universe for someone else's sin? You claim that Adam's sin brought God's judgment upon all creation? The animals didn't sin. Why should they be cursed to die. They were created sinless according to your false theology. And if sinless as you claim, then they could not be cursed with death which is the punishment for sin! God would be unjust to punish the innocent animals for the sin of someone else - Man.

You need to read the Bible more. That is exactly what Paul said. All creation groans for redemption. However, if this is how the creation has been, then there can be no redemption. Why? To redeem something means that you are bringing back to a state that it had previously. I give you something. The previous state is that I had it. I redeem it from you, and then I have it AGAIN. You really need to learn what it means when it is said that Adam had dominion over creation, and was the federal head. That is, his actions affected everything he was the head of, in this case, creation. Scripture says that sin ENTERED the world by one man's sin. You are saying that sin was always here. One is the word of GOD, the other is your word. So, are you asking me to worship you?

I think you need to study further the question of sin and creation and man. There is NOTHING God created that is eternal and sinless. Impossible! God does not give His glory of sinlessness or eternalness into created matter.

Your God is weak. Your God is not the God of the Bible, but one you created in your mind. God cannot create something eternal, because it has a beginning. To be eternal, you can't have a beginning or an end. However, God can create sinless because He is sinless. He cannot create sinful because He is not a sinner. Sinfulness proceeds from sinners.

Man can be innocent but still be sinful. As a matter of fact, man was created sinful but innocent. They were innocent UNTIL the command to not eat from the tree exposed their sinfulness.

Wow, so irrational. If you are innocent, you are not guilty. If you are not guilty, then you are not sinful. However, that state is not indelible. God determined Adam and Eve would sin, hence the plan of redemption in place before God even said "Let there be light".

8 For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Romans 7:8–9.

And God is clear that Adam and Eve were "alive" because they were sinless. Once they sinned, then they died. That is what God Himself told them. The day they eat of the fruit (that is sin), they will surely die. Now Adam and Eve probably did not understand the concept of spiritual death that would lead to their physical death. For they didn't drop dead when they sinned, however, they were separated from God, which is death.

Man was sinful and innocent. They were not guilty of sin until God commanded "Thou shalt not" (eat from the tree.)

You really don't understand. There was no sin until God gave them a "law", the command not to eat this fruit. They did not die until they actually sinned and became sinful. God was clear.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. Romans 7:10–13.

There you go. Innocent until the commandment came to "Thou shalt not" (eat of it - the tree.)

Not until the commandment. They were innocent/sinless until they sinned. It wasn't until then that they realized they were naked.

For when the commandment came - "Thou shalt not" - sin revived and by it (his sinfulness) he died. He didn't even have to do anything. BECAUSE Adam and the woman were created sinful they would have in time eventually died. Why?
Because there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory (Sinlessness, Eternalness, etc) to NO ONE. I think you should believe Isaiah for He speaks for God.

Nope. Sorry. Not buying it. I'll take the Bible above you. I'll take what God said Himself, above you.

Anyone who has the "capacity" to sin is a sinner. That's why they sinned. The last Adam PROVES this. Christ was Holy, Christ was Sinless, and guess what? He never sinned! Sin does not come from sinlessness and holiness. Sin comes from sinner and Adam and the woman were created sinful which is why they sinned. Eve sinned because she was created a sinner and she sinned. Adam sinned because he was created sinful and sinned.

No. Anyone who has the capacity to sin has the capacity to sin. That is all. Jesus could have (technicality) sinned. It was never going to happen, however, if it could not then Jesus could not have been our Savior. He had to face the tempter, withstand the temptation without sin, so that He would be our perfect lamb without blemish. He also could not be our perfect mediator unless He had experience all we experience. Again, He was never going to sin, but the possibility was there. It's like driving down the street. You were always going to, and were always meant to turn left. However, that right hand turn doesn't disappear. You could still, though you never would, take that right hand turn.

God intended man and woman and the universe to be created just as He determined them all to be created: fallen short of God's glory

You really don't get it. I mean, I thought you were just joking around. You really don't get it. How could God create something that falls short of Him? Just what kind of unlicensed, sub par Creator do you serve? Have you read Psalm 8? It says taht God has set His glory in the skies. But wait. I thought you said God is incapable of that?

They didn't notice a thing about their nakedness. Someone ridiculed them in their nakedness. And that someone was a talking serpent/snake - just as the word is defined.

No. That isn't even what God said. God said who told them, and then said...oh wait. You ate that fruit didn't you? No one told them. The serpent was telling the truth when he said their eyes would be opened, and they would know the difference between good and evil. That is exactly what happened, and they realized they were naked.

11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? Genesis 3:11.

Notice what He said after the question. He didn't ask if that pesky serpent told them. He asked if they ate the fruit, which is another way they would have come to know they were naked.

BOOM! Another false doctrine and heresy shot to hell!

I think you mean another burning strawman. You are the bane of all strawmen everywhere.

God would not say "Who told thee thou was naked?" if they were not ridiculed for their nakedness. They were naked and unashamed. BUT then someone told them they were naked after being ridiculed, God asked them "WHO told thee thou was naked?" God did. But He didn't ridicule them.

No. You forget what the serpent said. Eating the fruit opened their eyes. Genesis 3:
"6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves."

So no one told them they were naked. They came to realize they were naked after eating the fruit. Consider it someone trying to figure out what happened. "Who told thee thou was naked?" Oh wait a minute. You ate of the tree that I commanded you not to eat from, didn't you. (paraphrase, obviously). Wow, for someone who says he knows scripture well... Wisdom chases after you, but you have always been faster.

 

[armylngst]

Amen.

Let us never, ever attribute man's sin to God's decree.

Sin was chosen by free will.

You don't understand. God decreed it. We lived it. There are two completely incompatible ideas here. We are temporal beings, created by God. God is eternal, and He created us. We do not have free will. Our will is always captive. Only God has free will, or are you saying we are God? We, body, mind, and spirit, live within God's creation, and are shaped and face it's boundaries each and every day. And that includes to our mind and will. God had planned out redemption of His creation before He even said "Let there be light". God did not decree that He would make Adam and Eve sin. That isn't how a decree works here. He decreed that IT would happen. So, no matter what Adam and Eve did, they were going to be faced with, and be defeated by sin. And if you notice, it was all in keeping with their character. "6;When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it." All human weaknesses. Everything that occurred was a perfect setup that would result in sin. However, God wasn't tricking anyone, because He had already decreed/determined that Adam and Eve would sin, and that He would send His Son to die for His creation, bringing the greatest glory to Himself.

 

[Diserner]

He decreed that IT would happen.

It is wickedness to blame your sin on God's decree.

Repent of this.

 

[Olde Tymer]

.
I fully expect to experience 100% sinless perfection in the future.

● 2Pet 1:3-4 . . His divine power has given unto us all things that pertain unto life
and godliness, through the knowledge of Him that has called us to glory and virtue:

. .Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these
you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is
in the world through lust.

● Col 2:11-12 . . In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without
hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having
been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with him through
faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
_

 

[jeremiah1five]

Still denying the sovereignty of God. Adam and Eve cannot be created sinful.

Sure the can. Created in time, yes, they can be and can only be created sinful.
Otherwise, you're asking God to reduplicate Himself in Himself and this according to Scripture is impossible. God shares NONE of His glory with NO ONE.

To sin is the miss the standard. God created them good, as He said, and they hadn't done anything yet, so... no sin. (Unless you believe God is a sinner, and what comes from Him would thus be sinful. I'm pretty sure you don't believe that.) God determined it, because, if you understand God's sovereignty and that God is the Creator, because that is not only His right, but the position He is in as Creator.

You don't understand it. Why do you default to the "Well, God must be a sinner to create sinners" error? I can tell you've not ever thought this through with the pertinent Scripture. Instead, you give me the textbook response that they were "good" crap. They were good. They were good enough for God's purpose. They were created good as the word is defined "to specification." Good enough. Just the way I wanted them created. To [MY] specification. That's what the word "good" means. There is NO MORAL quality to this word. It merely means "to specification." We say the same thing after we follow a recipe and bake or cook something, it came out "good" to [our] specification.
Does anyone here study and think the deep things of God or do they pass over on the work to get to the truth?
Good Lord.

You really do need to stop with this. None of that is happening. You are deceiving yourself. Man was created sinless in that up to that time, and up to the point that man sinned, man had not sinned. Unlike God (something you seem to have a lack of ability to discern), they were capable of sinning. God cannot sin. So, they are not the same. Man was created innocent. God is NOT innocent in that way. God knows exactly what sin is, because it is everything He is not. Adam and Eve were innocent, which again, is not the same thing. It simply means they had no clue what sin is, because they had not sinned. Once they sinned, they knew exactly what sin was, but only once they sinned.

SINLESS is the Nature and Attribute of God. God doesn't share His glory with anyone. If man was created sinless then He would have to possess ALL God's Nature and Attributes of he would fall short of the glory of God." The word for that is sin.

Again, this doesn't mean anything. It's like, you are arguing with someone in a huge room, by looking at and yelling at the wall behind you.
Sure. Are you human, or did your parents have a weasel? Do you have two arms, two legs, two eyes, etc. (well, as the majority of humans do.) You got those attributes from your parents. And, sin. You got that attribute from your father. (Sin is passed on by the fathers, hence Jesus did not have an earthly father. (Other reasons as well.))

Even the animals were created sinful. What are you talking about?

You leave in a fantasy world, which logic fails to penetrate. Logic is another attribute of God. Logic is anchored in God, hence it never changes.

Why are you wasting time on a argument that was shown to you to be quite irrational. I understand you don't get it, but you should try to get it. God created man in His image. GOD HIMSELF SAID IT, SO PLEASE STOP, STOP, STOP calling God a liar. Please. Again, the word for image speaks of a likeness, where there are facets of one thing found in another, but it is NOT a mirror image, a facsimile or a duplicate. Now, when it comes to Jesus, the word for image in the Greek means exact copy. ALL attributes (not some facets), all perfectly present. You will continue running head first into a brick wall until you understand that we are in the image of God, as some say, fingerprints of God (but a small part), and that image is but a likeness. That likeness, according to some, is found in our ability to create (though not from nothing), to reason, to be rational, etc. It is not all God is. We are not holy, but apparently we can be, since God keeps commanding us to do so. Why? Because He is. We are not eternal, and we can't be, so don't bother trying. We will be immortal, but not eternal, for unlike God, we have a beginning. We are not omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, etc. We do not have God's glory, that is not what being made in His image (given the Hebrew word used for image heree). If anything, it is faint and it's glory that is to God for His wondrous creation.

We can't be sure what the serpent was. Was it a serpent that was possessed, or perhaps Lucifer in the form of a serpent. Tempting someone is not the same as making them sin. Scripture has already rendered that a moot point when saying that God does not allow the believer to be tempted beyond what they can handle, but has left a way of escape. As long as there is a way of escape, then to fall to temptation is on us. We are responsible to look for and take that way of escape, or we are accountable for the sin, and wholly responsible.

You can't be sure what the serpent was, but you can tell what man was? Let me see if you understand this:
God cannot create Himself in Himself. Drum roll please.....

Wow. Did you just call God irresponsible. Nice. Again, God said it and so it was. And when man sinned, that dominion went to Satan, who is the prince of the power of the air. Now, he only has dominion over what God gave Adam dominion over. And that dominion sits under the sovereignty of God. See Job where Satan has to ask God for permission to torment Job. Also notice that God says, go ahead. Why? A lesson to be taught. It is here that we find that God isn't at all like how you present Him.

You give the angels that sinned enormous glory.
Peter says the angels that sinned are locked up awaiting judgment. Don't you believe Peter?

The only way the creation can be sinful is if the Creator is sinful. Like that verse in I Samuel 24:13 Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked. Will sinfulness proceedeth from sinners, right? So if the creation is sinful, then it must have proceeded as such from God, right? Which means you are saying God is a sinner. You are so lost here. The creation cannot be eternal, because it has a beginning. However, it can be never ending because it proceeded from God, who is eternal. Also, they still haven't figured out how the sun works. Now the universe is sinless, but has been corrupted by the actions of Adam because Adam had been given dominion over it. Adam was the federal (WAS... past tense) head over not just humanity, but the creation, in as much as God gave Adam dominion over it. When Adam sinned, he handed that over to Satan. Hence the world is known as Satan's domain, and the world system is his system. The lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and the pride of life, all tools that he uses to blind humanity to God. And humans are more than happy to oblige. The prophecy says that there are none righteous, none who do good, and none who seek after God, because they have all gone their own way.

Leaning on your own understanding.
God created man sinful and this is why he sinned. Sin comes from sinner. Sin does not come from holy - which is what you believe.

You need to read the Bible more. That is exactly what Paul said. All creation groans for redemption. However, if this is how the creation has been, then there can be no redemption. Why? To redeem something means that you are bringing back to a state that it had previously. I give you something. The previous state is that I had it. I redeem it from you, and then I have it AGAIN. You really need to learn what it means when it is said that Adam had dominion over creation, and was the federal head. That is, his actions affected everything he was the head of, in this case, creation. Scripture says that sin ENTERED the world by one man's sin. You are saying that sin was always here. One is the word of GOD, the other is your word. So, are you asking me to worship you?

I'd prefer you just tell me you never studied the question of man's creation. Because it shows you haven't.
You just don't know what I know. POW! Is your pride affected? Yeah, it is.

Your God is weak. Your God is not the God of the Bible, but one you created in your mind. God cannot create something eternal, because it has a beginning. To be eternal, you can't have a beginning or an end. However, God can create sinless because He is sinless. He cannot create sinful because He is not a sinner. Sinfulness proceeds from sinners.

But you can't apply this to man. Ignorant. Hypocrite.
So, according to you God in contradiction to Isaiah God shared or gave His glory to a created out of dirt being: man.?? Isaiah said God doesn't give His glory (sinlessness) to anyone. God cannot reduplicate Himself in Himself.

Wow, so irrational. If you are innocent, you are not guilty. If you are not guilty, then you are not sinful. However, that state is not indelible. God determined Adam and Eve would sin, hence the plan of redemption in place before God even said "Let there be light".

You confuse innocent with sinful. It's as Saul said:

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Romans 7:9.

The commandment was "Thou shalt NOT eat of it."

There is no sin without the Law. But once the Law came then sin is proven. Thou shalt not proved man was a sinner before he disobeyed. He was innocent until God commanded "thou shalt not!"
Hello?

And God is clear that Adam and Eve were "alive" because they were sinless. Once they sinned, then they died. That is what God Himself told them. The day they eat of the fruit (that is sin), they will surely die. Now Adam and Eve probably did not understand the concept of spiritual death that would lead to their physical death. For they didn't drop dead when they sinned, however, they were separated from God, which is death.

God also said:

6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:6.

They were sinners before they disobeyed for they added to God's Word "neither shall ye touch it."
Crash and burn.

You really don't understand. There was no sin until God gave them a "law", the command not to eat this fruit. They did not die until they actually sinned and became sinful. God was clear.

No, they were innocent before God gave them command "thou shalt not." They sinned because sin comes from sinner, sin does not come from sinless. That's what you said. And you are wrong.

Not until the commandment. They were innocent/sinless until they sinned. It wasn't until then that they realized they were naked.

They didn't realize they were naked. God asked "WHO TOLD YOU, you were naked?"

Nope. Sorry. Not buying it. I'll take the Bible above you. I'll take what God said Himself, above you.

No. Anyone who has the capacity to sin has the capacity to sin. That is all. Jesus could have (technicality) sinned. It was never going to happen, however, if it could not then Jesus could not have been our Savior. He had to face the tempter, withstand the temptation without sin, so that He would be our perfect lamb without blemish. He also could not be our perfect mediator unless He had experience all we experience. Again, He was never going to sin, but the possibility was there. It's like driving down the street. You were always going to, and were always meant to turn left. However, that right hand turn doesn't disappear. You could still, though you never would, take that right hand turn.

You can take the bible all day long. You don't understand the Bible. Sin does not come from sinlessness. Sin comes from sinner. What world do you live it?

You really don't get it. I mean, I thought you were just joking around. You really don't get it. How could God create something that falls short of Him? Just what kind of unlicensed, sub par Creator do you serve? Have you read Psalm 8? It says taht God has set His glory in the skies. But wait. I thought you said God is incapable of that?

No. That isn't even what God said. God said who told them, and then said...oh wait. You ate that fruit didn't you? No one told them. The serpent was telling the truth when he said their eyes would be opened, and they would know the difference between good and evil. That is exactly what happened, and they realized they were naked.

Again, you say you take the Word as written but you don't understand what the Word means.
How can sin come from sinless? God is sinless. How long before God commit a sin since you believe sin comes from sinless?
Hmmm?

Notice what He said after the question. He didn't ask if that pesky serpent told them. He asked if they ate the fruit, which is another way they would have come to know they were naked.

I think you mean another burning strawman. You are the bane of all strawmen everywhere.

And I suppose you also believe Lucifer was the serpent, too, huh?

No. You forget what the serpent said. Eating the fruit opened their eyes. Genesis 3:
"6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves."

So no one told them they were naked. They came to realize they were naked after eating the fruit. Consider it someone trying to figure out what happened. "Who told thee thou was naked?" Oh wait a minute. You ate of the tree that I commanded you not to eat from, didn't you. (paraphrase, obviously). Wow, for someone who says he knows scripture well... Wisdom chases after you, but you have always been faster.

They "saw" they were naked because the serpent told them they were naked.
You believe sin comes from sinless. That's what you said.
So, let me ask you...God is sinless. How long before God commit sin since you believe sin comes from sinless?
Answer please?

 

[armylngst]

It is wickedness to blame your sin on God's decree.

Repent of this.

I guess it is a good thing that I don't then. Your lack of understanding of our relationship with Creator God notwithstanding, it doesn't matter if God ordered Adam to do it. That is God's right as Creator. God didn't do that, but you have to understand exactly what the relationship is between God and man, Creator and created, owner and simply... property. If you can't wrap your mind around that, you will not be able to understand God, much less yourself.

God determined that Adam would sin. He did not make Adam sin, He did not order Adam to sin, but in the order of the world, God decreed it would happen, and thus God had already established His Son as the Savior of His foreordained to adoption children. There was purpose in it. Your argument now is the show that God's purposes are corrupt or sinful. You may not want to go there, and you may want to instead consider how everything works within the relationship dynamic between God and man.

I mean, isn't it just as bad to say that God allowed Adam to sin? I mean, that turns His command to Adam into a baited trap. In your view, wouldnt' that be just as bad as what you say above? At least with God determining that Adam would sin, He is exercising His right as the Creator of the world. Note, I again have not said that God made Adam sin. The idea is that there was always, in the timeline of the world from beginning to end, a point where God determined that sin would enter the world. There also existed a point in time where God would enter the world, and save His adopted children. There also existed an end to this world, and a new creation that would never be corrupted by sin, and would last forever. An inheritance for His Son, and His adopted children.

 

[armylngst]

Sure the can. Created in time, yes, they can be and can only be created sinful.
Otherwise, you're asking God to reduplicate Himself in Himself and this according to Scripture is impossible. God shares NONE of His glory with NO ONE.

That is not true. If they were sinful, then they were not created to standard. They would be substandard, in which case, they would not be "good" because they didn't meet specification. Lucifer/Satan was sinless at the beginning ,the highest of the angels, who was even with God in the garden of Eden. Until sin was found in him. So there was no sin (sinless), and then there was. In this case it was pride. It elevated him to be as good as God. (Perhaps higher, but scripture seems to say that he wanted God's position, not higher.)

You don't understand it. Why do you default to the "Well, God must be a sinner to create sinners" error?

Because you keep putting it out there. Good comes from good, evil from evil, sin from sin. Sin does not come from good. Good does not come from sin. So if God created a sinner, then He must be one to, right? I mean, logically speaking. God did not create a sinner, therefore God is still... not a sinner. No sin in Him.

I can tell you've not ever thought this through with the pertinent Scripture. Instead, you give me the textbook response that they were "good" crap. They were good. They were good enough for God's purpose. They were created good as the word is defined "to specification." Good enough. Just the way I wanted them created. To [MY] specification. That's what the word "good" means. There is NO MORAL quality to this word. It merely means "to specification." We say the same thing after we follow a recipe and bake or cook something, it came out "good" to [our] specification.

They were good. Consider God. He is perfect. If He made something "to specification", God being perfect, His specification would be perfection. Could God create something that is simply... adequate? Would He create something that was simply... adequate? Again, your God seems small and imperfect, considering He apparently can't get it right when He created Adam, and Adam was simply... adequate.

Does anyone here study and think the deep things of God or do they pass over on the work to get to the truth?
Good Lord.

Yes. Read Genesis 1-3. It is very clear. Yet you deny what God specifically stated. The words from His own mouth you DENY. Even after being told that the word for image in Hebrew does not interpret to what you say. However, it does interpret to what I say it means. Yet you deny it, out loud. And you mansplain to God Himself. We bear the image of God, which is the likeness. There are attributes within us that are facets of the attributes of God. Not all of them. Not a majority of them. Yet they are there. And they are imperfectly presented by imperfect beings who sinned.

SINLESS is the Nature and Attribute of God. God doesn't share His glory with anyone. If man was created sinless then He would have to possess ALL God's Nature and Attributes of he would fall short of the glory of God." The word for that is sin.

This is where you are wrong. God is the standard, so sin is defined by Him. For instance, a bullseye isn't sinless. It is the standard. It is the person shooting at the target who can be sinless or can sin. They bullseye can't sin. Impossible. God cannot sin because it is impossible. God would cease to exist. God created Adam sinless. That is, in the archery competition of life, Adam had a perfect score... up until he didn't. If Adam had not sinned, he would not have fallen short of the glory of God. That does not mean that he has God's glory. It means that he (Adam) is God's glory, the work of God's hands. Complete reflection on God, not on Adam. So all creation was good, and brought full glory to God, until... Adam sinned.

Even the animals were created sinful. What are you talking about?

Animals were not created sinful. They were not corrupted until Adam sinned. They ate plants. Men and animals didn't eat meat until after the flood, because the flood destroyed all the plants, greatly diminishing the supply of food on Earth, and the quality of that food.

You can't be sure what the serpent was, but you can tell what man was? Let me see if you understand this:
God cannot create Himself in Himself. Drum roll please.....

You waste your time speaking of things that are wrong. God created man in His image. Again, the word in Hebrew does not speak to a duplication, but a likeness. Now, God is Spirit, so obvious that isn't a part of what we received from God, as we are flesh. However, in our mind we have attributes of God. The ability to reason, create (though again, not from nothing, only God can do that), etc.) Again, LIKENESS. He made us LIKE Him, He didn't make us Him. Yet you REFUSE to take God at His word.

You give the angels that sinned enormous glory.

No, that would be you. However, Lucifer was glorious (not like God) prior to his sin, and you can get that from God's words about him in Ezekiel (or is that Isaiah, I get confused sometimes). God had incredible things to say about him, that didn't fall apart UNTIL sin was found in him.

Peter says the angels that sinned are locked up awaiting judgment. Don't you believe Peter?

Yes, but it was a particular sin.

Leaning on your own understanding.
God created man sinful and this is why he sinned. Sin comes from sinner. Sin does not come from holy - which is what you believe.

No. God did not create man full of sin, or that makes God a sinner. God made man sinless, however, man is not God and thus man was capable of sinning, at which point man became sinful. For it was by one man (not one God) that sin entered the world, and by sin, death.

I'd prefer you just tell me you never studied the question of man's creation. Because it shows you haven't.

I didn't read whatever book you read. I read the Bible. What book did you read? I even quoted what God said directly from the BIble and you said NOPE. Not true, of GOD'S WORDS FROM GOD'S OWN MOUTH. And you said, nope.

You just don't know what I know. POW! Is your pride affected? Yeah, it is.

Your pride is showing. I feel no pride in what I know. There is so much I don't. So, please, leave your haughtiness at home. It is unbecoming. Perhaps if you read what Paul had to say about Jesus and humility?

But you can't apply this to man. Ignorant. Hypocrite.
So, according to you God in contradiction to Isaiah God shared or gave His glory to a created out of dirt being: man.?? Isaiah said God doesn't give His glory (sinlessness) to anyone. God cannot reduplicate Himself in Himself.

No, that is according to you because you don't understand. As far as creation is concerned, man was and will be God's glory to God. The work of His hands. And his glory is not sinlessness, but holiness. And God commands us to be holy as He is holy, which means that holiness is the attribute of God. And again, given the definition of the word image that God used HIMSELF in Genesis, it does not mean what you say it means. And God meant what He said.

You confuse innocent with sinful. It's as Saul said:

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Romans 7:9.

This has nothing to do with Adam, Paul speaks of himself. Paul did not eat the fruit.

The commandment was "Thou shalt NOT eat of it."

There is no sin without the Law. But once the Law came then sin is proven. Thou shalt not proved man was a sinner before he disobeyed. He was innocent until God commanded "thou shalt not!"

That's not it. There is no sin without a standard. Please get it right. The Law sheds light on the standard, though there are plenty of things that the Law does not cover that Paul is clear is a sin. For instance, if the command "Thou shalt not eat of it" was the only command, and only Adam and Eve committed this sin, why were people dying from this point all the way to Moses, before Moses received the Law?

Hello?

God also said:

6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:6.

Proverbs 30:
"Every word of God is [c]pure;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
6 Do not add to His words
Or He will rebuke you, and you will be proved a liar."

Don't add to God's words as you have been doing. STOP. God created man in His image. That word image is better understood as likeness. With Jesus, the word image is a different word in the original language that does not mean likeness, but exact copy. Completely different. You add to God's words. We are created in God's image as a likeness. We have SOME attributes of God, though they are inferior to God Himself. A likeness. Perfect in Adam until he sinned, and then corrupted. A dim reflection of what once was. Adam walked with God in the garden, which is IMPOSSIBLE if Adam was sinful. No sinful man can stand in God's presence. Even Adam never stood in God's presence, as one stands before a king face to face. Adam did. God even brought animals to Adam and watched as he named them. These things are impossible except Adam be without sin as God is without sin. Innocent does not mean sinful or sinless. It is a state of not knowing. God didn't kill those Israelites under the age of 20 in teh wilderness. He didn't kill the children. Why? He said they didn't know the difference between right and wrong, so they were innocent. God did not hold them accountable. That is different then with Adam because God created Adam without sin, and Adam didn't sin until he ate the fruit.

They were sinners before they disobeyed for they added to God's Word "neither shall ye touch it."

That was Eve, and she tacked on not to touch to eating, which makes sense, for someone knowing they shouldn't eat the fruit. This was not the sin, and even God said so. He didn't ask, did you add to my words? No, He asked, did you eat of that fruit... She should not have added that because the serpent could use it.

Crash and burn.

No, they were innocent before God gave them command "thou shalt not." They sinned because sin comes from sinner, sin does not come from sinless. That's what you said. And you are wrong.

Which is why if God created them sinners, then God has to be a sinner, as you say "because sin comes from sinner, sin does not come from sinless". Your words. They were innocent until they ate the fruit. Their shattered innocence is put on full display when they realized they were naked. And THAT is what made God ask if they had sinned. He didn't ask that because they were hiding.

They didn't realize they were naked. God asked "WHO TOLD YOU, you were naked?"

This is where you aren't studying enough. Either someone told them they were naked, since they were but didn't notice, or they did something that caused them to realize they were naked. Hence the next question He asked, which was if they had eaten of the tree as He told them not to. You remove words that God has said, and add yoru own.

You can take the bible all day long. You don't understand the Bible. Sin does not come from sinlessness. Sin comes from sinner. What world do you live it?

This is what you don't understand. Adam was sinless, in that his archery scorecard showed a perfect score. And then... he fired a 9 instead of a 10, he sinned. His scorecard was no longer perfect. He went from having no sin, to being a sinner. From a perfect scorecard which reflected on God's glory, to an imperfect scorecard, now falling short of God's standard, and thus short of God's glory

Again, you say you take the Word as written but you don't understand what the Word means.

That's rich coming from you.

How can sin come from sinless? God is sinless. How long before God commit a sin since you believe sin comes from sinless?
Hmmm?

One has to be sinless at first, and then miss the standard. It's that easy. You apparently do not understand the definition of sin.

And I suppose you also believe Lucifer was the serpent, too, huh?

It is quite possible. I mean, Lucifer can disguise himself, the first sinner, as an angel of light. Why not as a serpent. Or perhaps possessed the serpent. I mean serpents and dragons have things in common.

They "saw" they were naked because the serpent told them they were naked.

Ah, I see you have added to scripture. Nice.

You believe sin comes from sinless. That's what you said.

That is what YOU said. I said Adam was INNOCENT. That is he was without sin until he sinned. Again, if you knew the definition of sin, a word God psecifically introduced into the human vocabulary through Adam, you would know that not only is this possible, it is what happened. Adam had a perfect scorecard, meeting the standard (specifications), and then... he missed the standard. He sinned. He didn't even know what that meant until he sinned, which is what is meant when scripture says that there eyes were opened, and they then knew right and wrong. However, the Bible says there eyes were opened and they knew they were naked. And God explains that with "Have you eaten from the tree from which I commanded you not to eat?" So again, to choices as to how they knew they were naked. Someone told them, or, they ate of the fruit. But please, keep adding to God's word.

So, let me ask you...God is sinless. How long before God commit sin since you believe sin comes from sinless?
Answer please?

It is impossible for God to sin because He is the standard. If God is the Standard, if He deviated... He ceases to exist. The fact that you consider this a valid question is telling and shows a glaring lack of understanding about God. I mean, if a bullseye is a bullseye, how long until it stops being a bullseye? It never stops being a bullseye. So God never ceases to be the standard.

 

[jeremiah1five]

That is not true. If they were sinful, then they were not created to standard. They would be substandard, in which case, they would not be "good" because they didn't meet specification.

Isaiah says, "there is only ONE God; there is NONE like Him; He gives His glory to NO ONE. If they were sinless then they possessed a glory that is God.
It IS "to standard" that's what the word "good" means, "to standard" or "to specification" meaning exactly the way God wanted them created. We say the same thing after we taste a new recipe. We say, "it's good" meaning it came out as specified in the recipe.

Lucifer/Satan was sinless at the beginning ,the highest of the angels, who was even with God in the garden of Eden. Until sin was found in him. So there was no sin (sinless), and then there was. In this case it was pride. It elevated him to be as good as God. (Perhaps higher, but scripture seems to say that he wanted God's position, not higher.)

Angels are created beings, and they too were created sinful which is the reason why they were "found" sinful.
They are spirit beings. They are not material but immaterial. They are genderless, do not reproduce, do not marry, do not have penises, and obey the decree of God concerning offspring. They can't have offspring. They cannot mate with women and have children "after their kind" because they are not the same "flesh."
You give way tooooo much glory to Lucifer. He was in the Garden because that was his ministry before God created man. He guarded the throne of God on earth and the throne was located in and around what is today called Jerusalem. Cherubs guard earthly holy things; seraphs guard heavenly holy things.

Lucifer was not sinless "at the beginning." He NEVER possessed any Deific Attribute or Nature of God. What's wrong with you. Elevating Lucifer to a glory of God. That's what you're doing. Violating the First Commandment.

Because you keep putting it out there. Good comes from good, evil from evil, sin from sin. Sin does not come from good. Good does not come from sin. So if God created a sinner, then He must be one to, right? I mean, logically speaking. God did not create a sinner, therefore God is still... not a sinner. No sin in Him.

There is nothing moral about the word "good" in the creative narrative. It merely means, "to specification" or "good enough." It has no moral meaning at all.

They were good. Consider God. He is perfect. If He made something "to specification", God being perfect, His specification would be perfection. Could God create something that is simply... adequate? Would He create something that was simply... adequate? Again, your God seems small and imperfect, considering He apparently can't get it right when He created Adam, and Adam was simply... adequate.

God cannot reduplicate Himself in Himself. Therefore, He must create time and space. This is the realm in which He can create a being and it be "less" than He. It will be "fallen short of His glory." Oh no, He got it right. He just didn't give, share, reduplicate any of His glory or Nature in angel or man. It's impossible for Him to do this. This then leads to the God-man. Through the God-man God can create a sinful being who will possess a sinful nature and the Doctrine of Imputation is preserved. God CANNOT create Himself in Himself. He has to do it in the realm of time and space.

Yes. Read Genesis 1-3. It is very clear. Yet you deny what God specifically stated. The words from His own mouth you DENY. Even after being told that the word for image in Hebrew does not interpret to what you say. However, it does interpret to what I say it means. Yet you deny it, out loud. And you mansplain to God Himself. We bear the image of God, which is the likeness. There are attributes within us that are facets of the attributes of God. Not all of them. Not a majority of them. Yet they are there. And they are imperfectly presented by imperfect beings who sinned.

I don't deny, I UNDERSTAND. You fall for this false doctrine of "federal headship" in Adam is where you are infected with your error. Christ is Head - Head of the universe and Head of the Church. The image of the Father is the Son, not anything of the earth, earthy. He is the Lord from heaven, not the Lord from the earth, earthy. Go back to school and first thing you have to admit is that you don't know anything, give up that false Gentile theology that has infected your mind and cause you to elevate man to Deific proportions.

This is where you are wrong. God is the standard, so sin is defined by Him. For instance, a bullseye isn't sinless. It is the standard. It is the person shooting at the target who can be sinless or can sin. They bullseye can't sin. Impossible. God cannot sin because it is impossible. God would cease to exist. God created Adam sinless. That is, in the archery competition of life, Adam had a perfect score... up until he didn't. If Adam had not sinned, he would not have fallen short of the glory of God. That does not mean that he has God's glory. It means that he (Adam) is God's glory, the work of God's hands. Complete reflection on God, not on Adam. So all creation was good, and brought full glory to God, until... Adam sinned.

If God created Adam sinless with a sinless nature, then you have given Adam the Nature of God. NOW, in order to prevent him from falling short He MUST possess ALL the Deific Attributes and Nature of God. If you do that then man IS God just like God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. You have denied man's earthiness and given him heavenly glory equal to God Almighty. You have violated the First Commandment! Not only that but you destroyed the Doctrine of Imputation. Congratulations.

Animals were not created sinful. They were not corrupted until Adam sinned. They ate plants. Men and animals didn't eat meat until after the flood, because the flood destroyed all the plants, greatly diminishing the supply of food on Earth, and the quality of that food.

Is God just? The animals were created sinful and in time would have died. Is God just? According to you God placed the judgment of death upon an innocent animal. They didn't sin against God, man did. But in your man-centered glorious hierarchy God judged the animals with death because of man's sin against God. And because you attribute morality to the word "good" you have made animals out to be created with a moral compass. How can that be? Animals are moral? Think hard about that because your false theology is in error. Animals do not have morals, they have instinct. But YOU have given them morals in your false interpretation of the word "good."
You continue to violate the First Commandment. Congratulations.

You waste your time speaking of things that are wrong. God created man in His image. Again, the word in Hebrew does not speak to a duplication, but a likeness. Now, God is Spirit, so obvious that isn't a part of what we received from God, as we are flesh. However, in our mind we have attributes of God. The ability to reason, create (though again, not from nothing, only God can do that), etc.) Again, LIKENESS. He made us LIKE Him, He didn't make us Him. Yet you REFUSE to take God at His word.

Christ is the Lord from heaven. Christ possesses the image of God not earthy man. God did not create dirt and them create man from that dirt and give him a sinless nature. Impossible. The image of God is Christ, not Adam; the last Adam, not the first Adam.

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Colossians 1:15.

I don't know why I post Scripture; you are ignorant of God's truth. What does it say? Was Adam, the first Adam in the image of God or is Christ the image of God? It can't be both. The Doctrine of Imputation is in the balance.

No, that would be you. However, Lucifer was glorious (not like God) prior to his sin, and you can get that from God's words about him in Ezekiel (or is that Isaiah, I get confused sometimes). God had incredible things to say about him, that didn't fall apart UNTIL sin was found in him.

ANYTHING less than the glory of God is NOT less glorious, it is sinful = "missing the mark." It is fallen short of the ONLY Glory and that is God. What? You don't think upon Lucifer's creation that God didn't know Lucifer was sinful, that it had to be found out later through examination? Get a clue. You have created God in the image of man!

Yes, but it was a particular sin.

No. God did not create man full of sin, or that makes God a sinner. God made man sinless, however, man is not God and thus man was capable of sinning, at which point man became sinful. For it was by one man (not one God) that sin entered the world, and by sin, death.

Wickedness comes from the wicked just as sin comes from the sinner. Sin does not come from the sinless. But according to you, it does. Tell me.... God is sinless. How long before God sin since you believe sin comes from sinlessness? Good Lord, ma, get your head out of those Gentile theology books. I can tell the textbook replies because I used to also believe that crap just as you do NOW.

I didn't read whatever book you read. I read the Bible. What book did you read? I even quoted what God said directly from the BIble and you said NOPE. Not true, of GOD'S WORDS FROM GOD'S OWN MOUTH. And you said, nope.

Your pride is showing. I feel no pride in what I know. There is so much I don't. So, please, leave your haughtiness at home. It is unbecoming. Perhaps if you read what Paul had to say about Jesus and humility?

Believe me, those who learn under the anointing do not and cannot have pride. Knowledge does not come with pride to one taught under the anointing. It is your theology that is prideful, to exalt man to Deific standard equal to God by making him sinless like God. Open your mind, dude. Get a clue.

No, that is according to you because you don't understand. As far as creation is concerned, man was and will be God's glory to God. The work of His hands. And his glory is not sinlessness, but holiness. And God commands us to be holy as He is holy, which means that holiness is the attribute of God. And again, given the definition of the word image that God used HIMSELF in Genesis, it does not mean what you say it means. And God meant what He said.

Man is of the earth, earthy. The Lord is from heaven. Who has the glory of God? Man, or Christ? But you have elevated man to Deific proportions by saying man was created sinless. How did man get a glory and Nature of God? Oh yeah, God reduplicated one of His glories in man. God gave His glory to an earthen vessel. Might as well give it also to straw as in strawman. Welcome to Oz!

This has nothing to do with Adam, Paul speaks of himself. Paul did not eat the fruit.

That's not it. There is no sin without a standard. Please get it right. The Law sheds light on the standard, though there are plenty of things that the Law does not cover that Paul is clear is a sin. For instance, if the command "Thou shalt not eat of it" was the only command, and only Adam and Eve committed this sin, why were people dying from this point all the way to Moses, before Moses received the Law?

God is the standard, God is the mark to be attained. And you make man attain that glory by making him sinless. According to you, sin comes from sinlessness. God is sinless. How long before God sin since you believe sin comes from sinless? Answer me.

Proverbs 30:
"Every word of God is [c]pure;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
6 Do not add to His words
Or He will rebuke you, and you will be proved a liar."

Don't add to God's words as you have been doing. STOP. God created man in His image. That word image is better understood as likeness. With Jesus, the word image is a different word in the original language that does not mean likeness, but exact copy. Completely different. You add to God's words. We are created in God's image as a likeness. We have SOME attributes of God, though they are inferior to God Himself. A likeness. Perfect in Adam until he sinned, and then corrupted. A dim reflection of what once was. Adam walked with God in the garden, which is IMPOSSIBLE if Adam was sinful. No sinful man can stand in God's presence. Even Adam never stood in God's presence, as one stands before a king face to face. Adam did. God even brought animals to Adam and watched as he named them. These things are impossible except Adam be without sin as God is without sin. Innocent does not mean sinful or sinless. It is a state of not knowing. God didn't kill those Israelites under the age of 20 in teh wilderness. He didn't kill the children. Why? He said they didn't know the difference between right and wrong, so they were innocent. God did not hold them accountable. That is different then with Adam because God created Adam without sin, and Adam didn't sin until he ate the fruit.

That was Eve, and she tacked on not to touch to eating, which makes sense, for someone knowing they shouldn't eat the fruit. This was not the sin, and even God said so. He didn't ask, did you add to my words? No, He asked, did you eat of that fruit... She should not have added that because the serpent could use it.

Which is why if God created them sinners, then God has to be a sinner, as you say "because sin comes from sinner, sin does not come from sinless". Your words. They were innocent until they ate the fruit. Their shattered innocence is put on full display when they realized they were naked. And THAT is what made God ask if they had sinned. He didn't ask that because they were hiding.

This is where you aren't studying enough. Either someone told them they were naked, since they were but didn't notice, or they did something that caused them to realize they were naked. Hence the next question He asked, which was if they had eaten of the tree as He told them not to. You remove words that God has said, and add yoru own.

This is what you don't understand. Adam was sinless, in that his archery scorecard showed a perfect score. And then... he fired a 9 instead of a 10, he sinned. His scorecard was no longer perfect. He went from having no sin, to being a sinner. From a perfect scorecard which reflected on God's glory, to an imperfect scorecard, now falling short of God's standard, and thus short of God's glory

That's rich coming from you.

One has to be sinless at first, and then miss the standard. It's that easy. You apparently do not understand the definition of sin.

It is quite possible. I mean, Lucifer can disguise himself, the first sinner, as an angel of light. Why not as a serpent. Or perhaps possessed the serpent. I mean serpents and dragons have things in common.

Ah, I see you have added to scripture. Nice.

That is what YOU said. I said Adam was INNOCENT. That is he was without sin until he sinned. Again, if you knew the definition of sin, a word God psecifically introduced into the human vocabulary through Adam, you would know that not only is this possible, it is what happened. Adam had a perfect scorecard, meeting the standard (specifications), and then... he missed the standard. He sinned. He didn't even know what that meant until he sinned, which is what is meant when scripture says that there eyes were opened, and they then knew right and wrong. However, the Bible says there eyes were opened and they knew they were naked. And God explains that with "Have you eaten from the tree from which I commanded you not to eat?" So again, to choices as to how they knew they were naked. Someone told them, or, they ate of the fruit. But please, keep adding to God's word.

It is impossible for God to sin because He is the standard. If God is the Standard, if He deviated... He ceases to exist. The fact that you consider this a valid question is telling and shows a glaring lack of understanding about God. I mean, if a bullseye is a bullseye, how long until it stops being a bullseye? It never stops being a bullseye. So God never ceases to be the standard.

You know what? You keep your false, Constantinian Gentile theology, a theology that has unmoored itself from Hebrew culture and religion.
I'm done repeating myself. God has not opened your mind, and you remain blinded. You have exalted man to Deific proportions by giving man the glory of God: sinlessness.
You have also destroyed the Doctrine of Imputation.
Congratulations.

 

[armylngst]

Isaiah says, "there is only ONE God; there is NONE like Him; He gives His glory to NO ONE. If they were sinless then they possessed a glory that is God.
It IS "to standard" that's what the word "good" means, "to standard" or "to specification" meaning exactly the way God wanted them created. We say the same thing after we taste a new recipe. We say, "it's good" meaning it came out as specified in the recipe.

Angels are created beings, and they too were created sinful which is the reason why they were "found" sinful.
They are spirit beings. They are not material but immaterial. They are genderless, do not reproduce, do not marry, do not have penises, and obey the decree of God concerning offspring. They can't have offspring. They cannot mate with women and have children "after their kind" because they are not the same "flesh."
You give way tooooo much glory to Lucifer. He was in the Garden because that was his ministry before God created man. He guarded the throne of God on earth and the throne was located in and around what is today called Jerusalem. Cherubs guard earthly holy things; seraphs guard heavenly holy things.

Lucifer was not sinless "at the beginning." He NEVER possessed any Deific Attribute or Nature of God. What's wrong with you. Elevating Lucifer to a glory of God. That's what you're doing. Violating the First Commandment.

There is nothing moral about the word "good" in the creative narrative. It merely means, "to specification" or "good enough." It has no moral meaning at all.

God cannot reduplicate Himself in Himself. Therefore, He must create time and space. This is the realm in which He can create a being and it be "less" than He. It will be "fallen short of His glory." Oh no, He got it right. He just didn't give, share, reduplicate any of His glory or Nature in angel or man. It's impossible for Him to do this. This then leads to the God-man. Through the God-man God can create a sinful being who will possess a sinful nature and the Doctrine of Imputation is preserved. God CANNOT create Himself in Himself. He has to do it in the realm of time and space.

Okay. You apparently have no clue what glory. It is not an attribute one has or is. It is an attribute one ears/gains/takes. Look at the definition of glory.
1. high renown or honor won by notable achievements.
example: "to fight and die for the glory of one's nation"
2. magnificence or great beauty.
example ""the train has been restored to all its former glory"

BIble definitions
" majesty and dignity or honor of men due to their adornment or to their position"
1. Abundance, wealth, treasure, and hence honour (Psalms 49:12); glory (Genesis 31:1; Matthew 4:8; Revelation 21:24, 26).
2. Honour, dignity (1 Kings 3:13; Hebrews 2:7 1 Peter 1:24); of God (Psalms 19:1; 29:1); of the mind or heart (Genesis 49:6; Psalms 7:5; Acts 2:46).
3. Splendour, brightness, majesty (Genesis 45:13; Isaiah 4:5; Acts 22:11; 2 Corinthians 3:7); of Jehovah (Isaiah 59:19; 60:1; 2 Thessalonians 1:9).
4. The glorious moral attributes, the infinite perfections of God (Isaiah 40:5; Acts 7:2; Romans 1:23; 9:23; Ephesians 1:12). Jesus is the "brightness of the Father's glory" (Hebrews 1:3; John 1:14; 2:11).
[Note it doesn't say God's glory, it speaks of the glory of God which is seen in "glorious moral attributes, the infinite perfections of God". If there is anything man is not, it is infinite.]

God's glory is due to many things. The glory is seen in his attributes, which speaks to his magnificence and great beauty, and is earned and taken. It is one of the reasons why God had the Hebrews destroying the peoples in Canaan. It brought glory and praise to God, not just from Israel, but when the other countries mentioned that Israel was winning by the power of their God. Even the Philistines recognized that importance. Hence how they treated the Ark of the Covenant.

God created man in His image not in His glory. Man has glory, but it is of man. When Adam was sinless, his glory (not God's glory) was at the level of God's glorry in not having sinned. That's it. God did not give that glory to Adam from Himself. However, creating Adam in His image and creating in perfection (no corruption, no blemishes, etc.) brought great glory to God. It was a notable achievement, deserving high renown. Higher renown in that, while His creation sinned against Him, He gave His only Son to save it. Who does that? Only our God. No other. Glory be to God.

Attributes (facets of) of God can be found in man. The fingerprints of our Creator in us. Corrupted by sin, yet present, to be fully unveiled in glory (heaven). Gory is NOT one of those attributes. When Adam sinned, he fell short of God's glory. Up to that time, Adam measured up to God's glory of not having sin. (Again, if you believe that is the only glory God has or deserves, you need help.) It is man measuring up to God IN HIMSELF, not from God's glorry. God requires us to measure up to His glory by holiness/sinlessness. We cannot because Adam sinned, and, as the federal head of humanity, the progenitor, sold all humanity into bondage to sin. Man would always fall short of God's glory after Adam's sin. However, God's measure for entrance to the kingdom is to match God's glory. To be holy, and blameless. According to you, that is impossible, because the moment that happens, God is undone. However, we are not talking about people having God's glory. We are talking about people attaining their own glory based on their own attributes. In this case, level of holiness, sinlessness. Adm measured up until the moment he sinned. That resulted in lost glory, which is basically summed up as "The Fall". The fall from glory. From top ranked student to lowest ranked student. Always the student, never the teacher. How many more ways can I try to explain where your understanding of glory and what God TOLD US HE DID has come up short?

I don't deny, I UNDERSTAND. You fall for this false doctrine of "federal headship" in Adam is where you are infected with your error. Christ is Head - Head of the universe and Head of the Church. The image of the Father is the Son, not anything of the earth, earthy. He is the Lord from heaven, not the Lord from the earth, earthy. Go back to school and first thing you have to admit is that you don't know anything, give up that false Gentile theology that has infected your mind and cause you to elevate man to Deific proportions.

It isn't a false doctrine. It is the only way to understand our condition. By Adam's sin, we have all fallen into sin. By Christ's death, God's adopted children are saved. They are those who have, are, and will believe in Jesus by faith. So Adam led humanity to sin and death, but Christ leads His children to life. His children is the church, made up of believing non-Jewish Gentiles, and believing Jews. There is no distinction in the church. The salvation of the individual is glory to God, to salvation of the Jews is glorry to God, the salvation of the Gentiles is glory to God, however, the salvation of the church is great glory to God (all together), and the final salvation of Israel and Jerusalem under seige will be the greatest glory. God's final fulfillment of His promises.

If God created Adam sinless with a sinless nature, then you have given Adam the Nature of God. NOW, in order to prevent him from falling short He MUST possess ALL the Deific Attributes and Nature of God. If you do that then man IS God just like God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. You have denied man's earthiness and given him heavenly glory equal to God Almighty. You have violated the First Commandment! Not only that but you destroyed the Doctrine of Imputation. Congratulations.

No. That is not the nature of God. That is PART of God's nature, but God is infinite. Paul said that humans fall short because of sin. He did not say we fall short because we don't possess all of the attributes and nature of God. The gospel is not, become God and thou shalt be saved. That would be breaking the first commandment. That is the gospel of the health and wealth preachers. We are little gods. Oh no we're not. That isn't what God did. We are humans, but we are made in the likeness of God. That is, we have SOME attributes of God, inferior to God. If you put God and Adam in a lineup before Adam sinned, it would still be too simple to pick out God. They don't even look alike. However, if God and Adam were working next to each other, one would see little hints of God's attributes in Adam. Just some. Just enough that there would be no doubt that God had created Adam. No one else could lay claim.

Is God just? The animals were created sinful and in time would have died. Is God just? According to you God placed the judgment of death upon an innocent animal. They didn't sin against God, man did. But in your man-centered glorious hierarchy God judged the animals with death because of man's sin against God. And because you attribute morality to the word "good" you have made animals out to be created with a moral compass. How can that be? Animals are moral? Think hard about that because your false theology is in error. Animals do not have morals, they have instinct. But YOU have given them morals in your false interpretation of the word "good."
You continue to violate the First Commandment. Congratulations.

God is just and animals were not created sinful. We will never know what it is like, or what this world would be like, for God had, for all times, determined Adam would sin. So it isn't worth fantasizing what the world would be after a billion years of humans multiplying and none dying. It was NEVER going to happen. Same with animals. Never gunna happen. Again, God put Adam in dominion over his creation, which included all animals. So his sin affected all animals, not to mention all humanity. Of course, you have to understand what dominion means.

"26 Then God said, “[ai]Let Us make mankind in Our image, according to Our likeness; and [aj]let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the livestock and over all the earth, and over every crawling thing that crawls on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that [ak]moves on the earth.” 29 Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the [al]surface of all the earth, and every tree [am]which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30 and to every animal of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to everything that [an]moves on the earth [ao]which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so."

There was NO death before Adam sinned. ALL animals were vegetarians, as well as humans. The first animal death was when God killed animals to provide clothing for Adam and Eve. This was prophetic in nature.

Christ is the Lord from heaven. Christ possesses the image of God not earthy man. God did not create dirt and them create man from that dirt and give him a sinless nature. Impossible. The image of God is Christ, not Adam; the last Adam, not the first Adam.

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Colossians 1:15.

I don't know why I post Scripture; you are ignorant of God's truth. What does it say? Was Adam, the first Adam in the image of God or is Christ the image of God? It can't be both. The Doctrine of Imputation is in the balance.

ANYTHING less than the glory of God is NOT less glorious, it is sinful = "missing the mark." It is fallen short of the ONLY Glory and that is God. What? You don't think upon Lucifer's creation that God didn't know Lucifer was sinful, that it had to be found out later through examination? Get a clue. You have created God in the image of man!

Wickedness comes from the wicked just as sin comes from the sinner. Sin does not come from the sinless. But according to you, it does. Tell me.... God is sinless. How long before God sin since you believe sin comes from sinlessness? Good Lord, ma, get your head out of those Gentile theology books. I can tell the textbook replies because I used to also believe that crap just as you do NOW.

Believe me, those who learn under the anointing do not and cannot have pride. Knowledge does not come with pride to one taught under the anointing. It is your theology that is prideful, to exalt man to Deific standard equal to God by making him sinless like God. Open your mind, dude. Get a clue.

Man is of the earth, earthy. The Lord is from heaven. Who has the glory of God? Man, or Christ? But you have elevated man to Deific proportions by saying man was created sinless. How did man get a glory and Nature of God? Oh yeah, God reduplicated one of His glories in man. God gave His glory to an earthen vessel. Might as well give it also to straw as in strawman. Welcome to Oz!

God is the standard, God is the mark to be attained. And you make man attain that glory by making him sinless. According to you, sin comes from sinlessness. God is sinless. How long before God sin since you believe sin comes from sinless? Answer me.

You know what? You keep your false, Constantinian Gentile theology, a theology that has unmoored itself from Hebrew culture and religion.
I'm done repeating myself. God has not opened your mind, and you remain blinded. You have exalted man to Deific proportions by giving man the glory of God: sinlessness.
You have also destroyed the Doctrine of Imputation.
Congratulations.

I think I have said enough to show you that you fall short in your understanding. Perhaps it is because, as you said, you drifted from the truth as delivered to mankind. Imputation is the bedrock of the gospel. In fact, I am die hard Penal Substitutionary Atonement. That is the very heart of Christ's sacrifice. However, Christus Victor, Satisfaction theory, etc. are also aspects of the atonement. They are because of Penal substitutionary atonement. Christ has the victory because He took our punishment in our place. Christ satisfied God's justice by His sacrifice. The one I do not like is ransom theory. Satan has no part to play in any of this. We do not owe Satan anything, and most certainly God doesn't owe Satan anything. Satan is as much an offender of God as we are. He has just been given time, and as such, rules over creation as Adam had. He defeated Adam with the tree, and took Adam's position. He is the ruler of the world system that scripture tells us to avoid. Do not be conformed to the world. It speaks to Satan's system. A world full of the lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and the pride of life, to which we are prisoners. However, by the grace of God, He provides salvation for those who believe in His Son by faith.

You teach another gospel other than what Paul taught. Paul was clear to the Galatians as to what his gospel was. He sought to see taught to them solely Christ and Christ crucified. That's it. And that gospel he brought to the Jewish church, and they accepted it as the gospel. He fought against those who said that any believers had to become Jewish, or be Jewish. He fought against the Judaizers, and their "another gospel".

"6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you [c]by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel, 7 which is not just another account; but there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be [d]accursed! 9 As we have said before, even now I say again: if anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be [e]accursed!"

He spends the book of Galatians speaking out against following the Law for salvation, and the covenant. He teaches faith, and states that faith is better/greater. You deny this, so you too teach another gospel.

You need to go back and get an understanding of glory. Then you have to understand Adam and his place in this age long story of God's redemption of His creation. You can't get much else right if you don't understand God, and then understand our relationship to God. Since you start with man, and then look to God, you have everything backwards.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Okay. You apparently have no clue what glory. It is not an attribute one has or is. It is an attribute one ears/gains/takes. Look at the definition of glory.
1. high renown or honor won by notable achievements.
example: "to fight and die for the glory of one's nation"
2. magnificence or great beauty.
example ""the train has been restored to all its former glory"

BIble definitions
" majesty and dignity or honor of men due to their adornment or to their position"
1. Abundance, wealth, treasure, and hence honour (Psalms 49:12); glory (Genesis 31:1; Matthew 4:8; Revelation 21:24, 26).
2. Honour, dignity (1 Kings 3:13; Hebrews 2:7 1 Peter 1:24); of God (Psalms 19:1; 29:1); of the mind or heart (Genesis 49:6; Psalms 7:5; Acts 2:46).
3. Splendour, brightness, majesty (Genesis 45:13; Isaiah 4:5; Acts 22:11; 2 Corinthians 3:7); of Jehovah (Isaiah 59:19; 60:1; 2 Thessalonians 1:9).
4. The glorious moral attributes, the infinite perfections of God (Isaiah 40:5; Acts 7:2; Romans 1:23; 9:23; Ephesians 1:12). Jesus is the "brightness of the Father's glory" (Hebrews 1:3; John 1:14; 2:11).
[Note it doesn't say God's glory, it speaks of the glory of God which is seen in "glorious moral attributes, the infinite perfections of God". If there is anything man is not, it is infinite.]

So, is it something one gains? Who did God gain His glory from?
You say it is not an attribute one has and then post a definition that points exactly to what God has in number 4.
You definitely go beyond your measure of faith in your comments. But I also believe you don't know what THAT means (to go beyond one's measure of faith.)
I am learning more of your lack of biblical understanding of Scripture the more you comment.

"Glory" is what God IS. He didn't "gain" it from somebody else and it is an attribute belonging to Him.

God's glory is due to many things. The glory is seen in his attributes, which speaks to his magnificence and great beauty, and is earned and taken. It is one of the reasons why God had the Hebrews destroying the peoples in Canaan. It brought glory and praise to God, not just from Israel, but when the other countries mentioned that Israel was winning by the power of their God. Even the Philistines recognized that importance. Hence how they treated the Ark of the Covenant.

So, you finally agree with me. Good for you.

God created man in His image not in His glory. Man has glory, but it is of man. When Adam was sinless, his glory (not God's glory) was at the level of God's glorry in not having sinned. That's it. God did not give that glory to Adam from Himself. However, creating Adam in His image and creating in perfection (no corruption, no blemishes, etc.) brought great glory to God. It was a notable achievement, deserving high renown. Higher renown in that, while His creation sinned against Him, He gave His only Son to save it. Who does that? Only our God. No other. Glory be to God.

You believe man was created sinless? I have asked and will ask again, tell me, God is sinless, how long before God sin since you believe sin comes from sinlessness?
Answer please.

Attributes (facets of) of God can be found in man. The fingerprints of our Creator in us. Corrupted by sin, yet present, to be fully unveiled in glory (heaven). Gory is NOT one of those attributes. When Adam sinned, he fell short of God's glory. Up to that time, Adam measured up to God's glory of not having sin. (Again, if you believe that is the only glory God has or deserves, you need help.) It is man measuring up to God IN HIMSELF, not from God's glorry. God requires us to measure up to His glory by holiness/sinlessness. We cannot because Adam sinned, and, as the federal head of humanity, the progenitor, sold all humanity into bondage to sin. Man would always fall short of God's glory after Adam's sin. However, God's measure for entrance to the kingdom is to match God's glory. To be holy, and blameless. According to you, that is impossible, because the moment that happens, God is undone. However, we are not talking about people having God's glory. We are talking about people attaining their own glory based on their own attributes. In this case, level of holiness, sinlessness. Adm measured up until the moment he sinned. That resulted in lost glory, which is basically summed up as "The Fall". The fall from glory. From top ranked student to lowest ranked student. Always the student, never the teacher. How many more ways can I try to explain where your understanding of glory and what God TOLD US HE DID has come up short?

Typical textbook response.
Do you do any original thinking at all?

It isn't a false doctrine. It is the only way to understand our condition. By Adam's sin, we have all fallen into sin. By Christ's death, God's adopted children are saved. They are those who have, are, and will believe in Jesus by faith. So Adam led humanity to sin and death, but Christ leads His children to life. His children is the church, made up of believing non-Jewish Gentiles, and believing Jews. There is no distinction in the church. The salvation of the individual is glory to God, to salvation of the Jews is glorry to God, the salvation of the Gentiles is glory to God, however, the salvation of the church is great glory to God (all together), and the final salvation of Israel and Jerusalem under seige will be the greatest glory. God's final fulfillment of His promises.

I'd prefer you just say "I don't understand what you mean when you say man was created sinful" rather than post the textbook response and use THAT as your source to say I am wrong.

No. That is not the nature of God. That is PART of God's nature, but God is infinite. Paul said that humans fall short because of sin. He did not say we fall short because we don't possess all of the attributes and nature of God. The gospel is not, become God and thou shalt be saved. That would be breaking the first commandment. That is the gospel of the health and wealth preachers. We are little gods. Oh no we're not. That isn't what God did. We are humans, but we are made in the likeness of God. That is, we have SOME attributes of God, inferior to God. If you put God and Adam in a lineup before Adam sinned, it would still be too simple to pick out God. They don't even look alike. However, if God and Adam were working next to each other, one would see little hints of God's attributes in Adam. Just some. Just enough that there would be no doubt that God had created Adam. No one else could lay claim.

God is just and animals were not created sinful. We will never know what it is like, or what this world would be like, for God had, for all times, determined Adam would sin. So it isn't worth fantasizing what the world would be after a billion years of humans multiplying and none dying. It was NEVER going to happen. Same with animals. Never gunna happen. Again, God put Adam in dominion over his creation, which included all animals. So his sin affected all animals, not to mention all humanity. Of course, you have to understand what dominion means.

Of course animals were created sinful just as man was. Animals die. Are you telling me God placed the judgment of death for sin upon the animal world for Adam's sin? They didn't sin against God. Why do you have them being judged for committing sin when they did not eat from the Tree of Good and Evil?
God doesn't place death as the judgment for sin upon the innocent animals because of Adam's sin. But that's what you are saying and in saying that make God unjust to condemn the innocent animals for the sin of someone else.
Good work. You're wrong.

"26 Then God said, “[ai]Let Us make mankind in Our image, according to Our likeness; and [aj]let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the livestock and over all the earth, and over every crawling thing that crawls on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that [ak]moves on the earth.” 29 Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the [al]surface of all the earth, and every tree [am]which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30 and to every animal of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to everything that [an]moves on the earth [ao]which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so."

There was NO death before Adam sinned. ALL animals were vegetarians, as well as humans. The first animal death was when God killed animals to provide clothing for Adam and Eve. This was prophetic in nature.

Everything in the physical universe is sinful. It dies in time. And Adam and the woman even if they had not disobeyed and ate from the tree in time would have died. They were not created eternal. If they were also eternal along with their being sinless why would God deny them the Tree of Life and they live forever?
Let me guess. You're going to give me the textbook response that God denied them the Tree of Life so they would live forever in that sinful condition, right?
Well, there's your answer. You say man was created sinless but not eternal? Right here is where they fall short of the glory of God. The word from that is "sin." There are only two Persons who can stand before a Holy God blameless, and they are the Holy Son and the Holy Spirit. In order to stand before God blameless Adam and the woman would need to possess ALL the Nature and Deific Attributes of God or he and she would fall short of His glory.
Now I KNOW you do not understand fully the ramifications of having a sinless but temporal man on the planet. Just this condition alone (sinless but temporal) is sinful. You have proved me right.
Again.

I think I have said enough to show you that you fall short in your understanding. Perhaps it is because, as you said, you drifted from the truth as delivered to mankind. Imputation is the bedrock of the gospel. In fact, I am die hard Penal Substitutionary Atonement. That is the very heart of Christ's sacrifice. However, Christus Victor, Satisfaction theory, etc. are also aspects of the atonement. They are because of Penal substitutionary atonement. Christ has the victory because He took our punishment in our place. Christ satisfied God's justice by His sacrifice. The one I do not like is ransom theory. Satan has no part to play in any of this. We do not owe Satan anything, and most certainly God doesn't owe Satan anything. Satan is as much an offender of God as we are. He has just been given time, and as such, rules over creation as Adam had. He defeated Adam with the tree, and took Adam's position. He is the ruler of the world system that scripture tells us to avoid. Do not be conformed to the world. It speaks to Satan's system. A world full of the lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and the pride of life, to which we are prisoners. However, by the grace of God, He provides salvation for those who believe in His Son by faith.

But you place him being involved in the woman's sin. Now you say he wasn't involved or "played no part in any of 'this'." Peter says the angels that sinned are locked up awaiting judgment and yet you contradict Peter and say the fallen angels are loose on the planet. You are very wrong here, too.

You teach another gospel other than what Paul taught. Paul was clear to the Galatians as to what his gospel was. He sought to see taught to them solely Christ and Christ crucified. That's it. And that gospel he brought to the Jewish church, and they accepted it as the gospel. He fought against those who said that any believers had to become Jewish, or be Jewish. He fought against the Judaizers, and their "another gospel".

In order to use the "another gospel" on me you need to first understand the original meaning and use Saul makes of the term in Galatians 1. You don't understand what Saul meant and what he was referring to as "another gospel" when he said it.
So, tell me, what is the original meaning of "another gospel" when Saul says it in Galatians 1?

"6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you [c]by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel, 7 which is not just another account; but there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be [d]accursed! 9 As we have said before, even now I say again: if anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be [e]accursed!"

He spends the book of Galatians speaking out against following the Law for salvation, and the covenant. He teaches faith, and states that faith is better/greater. You deny this, so you too teach another gospel.

You need to go back and get an understanding of glory. Then you have to understand Adam and his place in this age long story of God's redemption of His creation. You can't get much else right if you don't understand God, and then understand our relationship to God. Since you start with man, and then look to God, you have everything backwards.

I'm going to leave this conversation now. I grow weary of explaining my position on things when you lack what I know in order to understand what I am saying. But for the record let me say this:
God created man sinful. Man sinned because he was created a sinner and sin comes from sinner, sin does not come from sinlessness.
In general, man possessed NONE of God's glory, Nature, or Deific Attributes that set Him apart from man.
Isaiah said:
There is only ONE God,
there is NONE like Him,
and He gives His glory to NO ONE.

You believe there is more than the One God, three-person Deity, you believe man is like God in every respect when Isaiah says, "there is NONE like Him",
and you believe God gives His glory to others, in this case, man.
You violate the Scripture in all your positions and doctrine.
But you are blind to see this.

 

[armylngst]

Of course animals were created sinful just as man was. Animals die. Are you telling me God placed the judgment of death for sin upon the animal world for Adam's sin? They didn't sin against God. Why do you have them being judged for committing sin when they did not eat from the Tree of Good and Evil?

Your whole comment is going to take a while for me to respond to, and so I know you read this answer, and thus show ignorance in your response, or understanding, I guess we will see, animals were not created sinful. The whole idea of God's redemption of creation is to take creation back to its original state. You keep saying there was no original state, where there was no sin. There has only been sin. So why did God send Jesus to redeem man back to how they were, if there never was a "how they were"?

Adam and Eve (I couldn't find the comment part in the few minutes I have to write this) were not created ETERNAL. They were not. They were created IMMORTAL. There is a different. If one is eternal, that means they have no beginning and they have no end. There is never a point where they did not exist. They have always existed, eternally and for all time. Immortal just means you can't die. It does not mean you didn't have a beginning. Remember, that would make then eternal, not immortal. However, they were immortal. When they ate of the tree, then they received a death sentence as God said they would. (Why is the end result of some of the things you say... God lied? I mean, God said that when they eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they will die. What happened when they ate of the tree. Did they die? Yes. Not immediately, but their immortal status ceased. They would die, and it was because they ate of the tree. They became as we are now. We live for a time, and then, like a puff of smoke, we're gone.

Once they ate from the tree of good and evil, God specifically shut them off from the tree of life. Why? It is one thing for them to be sinless and immortal, it is another for them to become mortal sinners, and then become immortal sinners. Their immortality came from God who created them. They would live forever in sinless bodies (before they ate the fruit), and live happily ever after. However, they sinned, and God stripped them of their immortality. (He could do that, since He was the One who is the source of life.) Redemption brings the believer back to the pre-fall state. Eternal life is promised...immortality. Glorified sinless bodies. No more pain. No more crying.

 

[Complete]

What was it about this tree? Did eating its fruit which God forbid change the composition of Adam and Eve, change them from holy, righteous beings into sinful reprobates? Was there some kind of poison or DNA-changing properties that miraculously changed them from good to evil? And was Lucifer/Satan the angel the one identified as "serpent" the instigator? Who was this "serpent"?
Good questions. But easily answered by Scripture.

To begin, God called this big, beautiful tree the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Why was it so named that by God?
Answer: Because God used a regular tree like any other tree, He had created to be used by God to give Adam and the woman the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. They weren't biologically changed from good to evil. They only gained the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. It was [a] mind-altering experience, a blowing of their minds. And here's the Scriptural proof:

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Genesis 3:6–7.

Knew = Knowledge.

But what new knowledge did they gain? They knew they were naked and because of their shame sewed fig leaves to cover their bodies. They covered every inch of their bodies, not just their genitals/groin. They became "tree-people." They covered their naked skin. But there was nothing good or evil about being naked. And who or what was this serpent? It says this "serpent" talked.
Answer: this serpent, is says, was a created "beast of the field." Well, God created the beasts of the field. He even brought every "beast of the field" He created to Adam to give them names. It seems this "beast" was named, "serpent."

19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. Genesis 2:19.

This "beast" was among the beasts God created in the Genesis narrative. It was a "beast" God created upon the earth.

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. Genesis 1:24–25.

"After his kind" is a genealogical creature that when it has/begets offspring the creature births little baby "beasts of the field." But some say this "beast of the field" is an angel named "Lucifer" with an associated name describing its character of a Satan, or "adversary." So, was this "beast of the field" God created upon the earth an "adversary"? God called this "adversary" good. Is Lucifer also known as "Satan" good and created for the earth and a physical creature that can have offspring ("after their kind"?) What's going on here? It says this "beast" talked, if this "beast" was a serpent that Adam named "serpent" when God brought all the animals and created "beasts" and creatures to Adam to give them names to identify them. But none of these creatures was an adequate "helpmeet" for Adam. Clearly this "beast of the field" cannot be the angel Lucifer/Satan. Lucifer was a cherub according to Isaiah. A cherub is an angel. A seraph is an angel, a spirit being that has no corporeal bodies because they are invisible to the eye. They are spiritual beings and like air we cannot see, but we can feel the air and see its effect upon the earth that can blow leaves, etc.

So, here we have a Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It was a regular tree God used to give the man and woman KNOWLEDGE of their goodness and their evilness. And it worked perfectly. Once these two openly disobeyed God a knowing, a knowledge 'kicked in' and they KNEW they were naked. But their nakedness wasn't anything good or evil about it. But then God says to Adam, "WHO told thee thou wast naked"? The answer to that can only be, the "serpent," the talking beast of the field" God created, and Adam named called "serpent." And this serpent seems to have had legs because after investigating what happened God declared this serpent will now crawl on the ground and eat the dust of the earth. If this were Lucifer his diet would have changed to now eating dust/dirt. But as an angel, if it was an angel, what did this angel eat before being cursed by God? Grass? Leaves? Bamboo shoots? Ah, the plot thickens. Some say the serpent was a snake which at one time had legs and vocal chords. And this tree was a regular tree God created and used to give Adam and the woman the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. And another thing...was the tree evil? If so why didn't God curse the evil tree? No, He claimed His creation - including trees - was "good." How did it become a tree of both good and evil? The answer is it wasn't, and it can't. It was a regular tree that may have grown apples or grapefruit. And God used it to give the man and woman the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil.

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Genesis 3:7.

There's the answer. It gave them KNOWLEDGE.

KNOWLEDGE of good and evil.

And there is more I can say about that!

* Reading through your OP, @jeremiah1five, the verses that came into my mind were:-

'And the great dragon was cast out,
that old serpent, called the Devil,
and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world:
he was cast out into the earth,
and his angels were cast out with him.'
(Rev.12:9 )

'And he laid hold on the dragon,
that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan,
and bound him a thousand years,'
(Rev.20:2)

'And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow
every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food;
the tree of life also in the midst of the garden,
and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.'
(Gen 2:9)

'And the LORD God commanded the man, saying,
Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
thou shalt not eat of it:
for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.'
(Gen 2:16)

'And the LORD God said,
Behold, the man is become as one of us,
to know good and evil:
and now, lest he put forth his hand,
and take also of the tree of life,
and eat, and live for ever:
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden,
to till the ground from whence he was taken.
So He drove out the man;
and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims,
and a flaming sword which turned every way,
to keep the way of the tree of life.'
(Gen 3:22-24)

* Why don't you believe what is written, @jeremiah1five?

In Christ Jesus
Complete

 

[jeremiah1five]

Your whole comment is going to take a while for me to respond to, and so I know you read this answer, and thus show ignorance in your response, or understanding, I guess we will see, animals were not created sinful. The whole idea of God's redemption of creation is to take creation back to its original state. You keep saying there was no original state, where there was no sin. There has only been sin. So why did God send Jesus to redeem man back to how they were, if there never was a "how they were"?

Man's original state is not within creation but within God. When God contemplated man He knew He could not bring him (and her) into existence within Himself and so He chose from out of His limitless wisdom to create time and space (heaven and earth, first heaven and second heaven) and do it that way for God cannot reduplicate Himself in Himself, He had to create heaven and earth, before creating man. Angels came first after creation but before man. There is enough to imply created physical beings before Adam and they occupied various locations on the planet. The ministry of certain angels was upon earth. Lucifer guarded the earthly holy throne of God in an area we call Jerusalem, where the first human sin occurred and where Jesus Christ had to be crucified.

Adam and Eve (I couldn't find the comment part in the few minutes I have to write this) were not created ETERNAL. They were not. They were created IMMORTAL. There is a different. If one is eternal, that means they have no beginning and they have no end. There is never a point where they did not exist. They have always existed, eternally and for all time. Immortal just means you can't die. It does not mean you didn't have a beginning. Remember, that would make then eternal, not immortal. However, they were immortal. When they ate of the tree, then they received a death sentence as God said they would. (Why is the end result of some of the things you say... God lied? I mean, God said that when they eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they will die. What happened when they ate of the tree. Did they die? Yes. Not immediately, but their immortal status ceased. They would die, and it was because they ate of the tree. They became as we are now. We live for a time, and then, like a puff of smoke, we're gone.

Playing with words. OK, you started it. So, an immortal, sinless being man sinned by eating the forbidden fruit from the forbidden tree? All of a sudden Adam and the woman went through a metamorphosis after eating from the tree? You're saying their being changed and they became sinful? What a fantastical belief not borne out through Scripture. If Adam was sinless and immortal (cannot die) when created, in your view, he eats from the tree and when he does he and the woman lose their glow and man becomes sinful and mortal, is this right? His whole being changed instantly after eating from the tree? Is that what you believe? Incredible. Simply incredible.

My view is that God contemplated creating man (and woman), one from the dirt, the other from his rib. They were created sinful a word that means "missing the mark" (of the glory that is God. Since God cannot create man within Himself, He had to create time and space and create man from this created matter and then create woman from man's rib. Before God created the man and the woman He said, "Let us make man in our image" which means the "our" is God the Father, God the Son (the Word), and God the Spirit. Now here is a lifeless thing created out of the dirt. This is not God's image for God is not lifeless as the created man was before breathing into his nostrils and animating man and this remained so for a period time, time enough to get the animals to pass him by so he could name them until at the end there was no one suitable for Adam. This took time. And since Adam cooperated in naming the animals there was no command of "thou shalt not" to prove man was created sinful. He was innocent. But when the Commandment came, sin revived, and man died, just as Saul wrote in Romans.

Here is Saul:

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Romans 7:7–12.

I can apply these words to Saul, and I can apply these words to me and everyone else. But let's apply them to Adam:

ADAM: What shall I say, then? Is the Commandment sin? God forbid! Nay, I had not known sin but by the Commandment; for I had not known disobedience except the Commandment had said, thou shalt not eat [of it/the tree.] And the Commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the Commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me."

In the original statement by Saul in his Roman letter he is using rabbinical argument and the rabbi and Pharisee in Saul becomes clear. He does this several times in his letters. He presents the position, says "God forbid!" (to the conclusion) and then argues negatively to come to the correct conclusion. In Romans 7 Saul asks openly "is the commandment sin?" (Thou shalt not...) and the answer is "No!" It is Saul/Adam who are sinful for the Commandment is given and it reveals that Saul/Adam were sinful because the existence of the [Law]/Commandment is proof of their sinfulness. Saul explains this here: "for by the law [or Commandment] is the knowledge of sin. (Rom.3:20.) The existence of the command of "thou shalt not" proves the man sinful before the act of disobedience. Adam was "alive" and innocent in and around the Garden because God had placed no restriction upon him. But when the Commandment came sinfulness was proved through the existence of "Thou shalt not!"

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Romans 7:9.

Adam was created sinful, but innocent, but when the law came, "sin revived, and I died." If there is no law, there is no sinner. Adam was not sinless for if he were sinless the same as the last Adam, then Adam would not and could not sin. Saul makes good comparisons between the first Adam and the last Adam in 1st Corinthians 15), while one is sinful in his creation, the other is sinless in His birth. Sin does not and cannot be committed by a sinless person - like Christ. Then there is the "adding to God's Word when Adam added to the command not to eat in saying "neither shall ye touch it." We are told in Proverbs 30:6 that adding to God's Word is a sin, it is counted as lying. Lying is a sin, BUT there was no commandment or Law prohibiting Adam from adding to God's Word. It was only later that God included a prohibition against adding to God's Word. It wasn't a sin because God did not make it a sin by prohibiting it. Adam still added to God's Word which later would prove that before the so-called false theology of a "Fall" Adam was already a sinner for adding to God's Word. It's very practical. It was only when God made it a sin did it prove men can and do add to God's Word - like adding Gentiles as a people saved by the cross when there were no Gentiles included in Israel's covenants. If Adam was sinless, as YOU say, then he would not have added to God's Word by saying, "neither shall ye touch it" nor would he have eaten from the forbidden tree. Jesus Christ was sinless - neither was guile found in his mouth. As it is said of Jesus Christ, not only did He not sin, but He was also unable to sin. And THAT is true sinlessness. There was no "Fall" and the existence of a "Thou shalt not" according to Saul, proves one and all are sinners because sin comes from sinners, sin does not come from holy (Jesus Christ.)

Once they ate from the tree of good and evil, God specifically shut them off from the tree of life. Why? It is one thing for them to be sinless and immortal, it is another for them to become mortal sinners, and then become immortal sinners. Their immortality came from God who created them. They would live forever in sinless bodies (before they ate the fruit), and live happily ever after. However, they sinned, and God stripped them of their immortality. (He could do that, since He was the One who is the source of life.) Redemption brings the believer back to the pre-fall state. Eternal life is promised...immortality. Glorified sinless bodies. No more pain. No more crying.

Typical textbook answer, that God prevented them from the tree of life because He didn't want sinful mortals. I used to believe that crap just as you do now. But when I became a man I put away childish things like the false theology you believe in because I became a man and was accountable to God to KNOW His Word inside and out and although I do not know everything, I know what I know and speak up about those things that are true. But you still hold on to the textbook theologies. What you believe is not original. All you are doing is regurgitating SOMEONE ELSE'S BIBLE STUDY.

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was only a regular tree God uised to give Adam the KNOWLEDGE of his/their sinfulness and that's all. It didn't change them; there was no metamorphosis; and no halo was lost. God cannot create sinless beings within Himself and so He created this realm we call time and space, or time-space in which to bring forth His Plan of Man.
Man was created sinful because God cannot reduplicate Himself in Himself and the only way man can be created is created fallen short of God's glory, created "missing the mark" of the glory that is God, and God is the standard by which all things created are judged against. The universe was created sinful and every moment it is dying and falling into what scientists say is degenerating into chaos. There is a "metamorphosis but it doesn't come at the beginning, it comes at the end when Christ returns and we are changed in the twinkle, twinkle of His eye, from corruption to incorruption.
Throw away other peoples' bible studies and do the study under the anointing and let God teach you the things of God rather than rely on man for your beliefs. Because if all you're going to do is regurgitate other peoples' bible studies I might as well be dealing with those who originally put forth those bible studies and theology books. It gets old. Mostly all responses I get to my posts are usually other peoples' bible studies. If you are to rely on textbook responses then throw away your Bible and just post their bible studies. Why study if all you're going to do is give me textbook responses. It's such a drag.

 

[armylngst]

Man's original state is not within creation but within God. When God contemplated man He knew He could not bring him (and her) into existence within Himself and so He chose from out of His limitless wisdom to create time and space (heaven and earth, first heaven and second heaven) and do it that way for God cannot reduplicate Himself in Himself, He had to create heaven and earth, before creating man. Angels came first after creation but before man. There is enough to imply created physical beings before Adam and they occupied various locations on the planet. The ministry of certain angels was upon earth. Lucifer guarded the earthly holy throne of God in an area we call Jerusalem, where the first human sin occurred and where Jesus Christ had to be crucified.

You still don't get it. God never had an existential crisis. There was never a time that He did not understand what He wanted to do and had to figure it out. God was never any form of clueless. God created angels, apparently outside of time. You can say no, or realize I said apparently, and that we don't have all the information. It may have been in time. The flow of time may exist but God isn't affected. Who knows exactly? Angels are immortal beings. Demons as well, since they were once angels before they followed Lucifer. Those angels in prison didn't follow Lucifer, but sinned during the days of Noah. (The demons sin was from before Adam and Eve's creation, so not with Noah.) Again, can you stop with the reduplication. No one is making an argument for reduplication. How many times do I have to tell you that the word IMAGE in Hebrews in Genesis has NOTHING TO DO WITH COPYING ONESELF, and the object connected to the word IMAGE is NOT A COPY. So PLEASE STOP. The first sin happened in the garden of Eden which was not Jerusalem, or the tree of life would be in Jerusalem. God's throne is in heaven, as was Lucifer, however Lucifer was present with God in the garden during creation.

Playing with words. OK, you started it. So, an immortal, sinless being man sinned by eating the forbidden fruit from the forbidden tree? All of a sudden Adam and the woman went through a metamorphosis after eating from the tree? You're saying their being changed and they became sinful? What a fantastical belief not borne out through Scripture. If Adam was sinless and immortal (cannot die) when created, in your view, he eats from the tree and when he does he and the woman lose their glow and man becomes sinful and mortal, is this right? His whole being changed instantly after eating from the tree? Is that what you believe? Incredible. Simply incredible.

You can read it yourself.
"6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."

So, I guess they were walking around the garden blind, with their eyes stuck shut? It took eating the fruit for their eyes to open? Really? It speaks of an internal change, or I guess you can say metamorphisis. They went from no knowledge of good and evil, to a knowledge of good and evil, as the serpent said they would. Why doesn't it just spell that out here? It does, when it says that as soon as they ate the fruit they knew that they were naked. Now, perhaps you truly believe that the breath of God, the breath of life is impotent. That is your right. However, I believe that it is not, and that Adam and Eve were immortal. Hence, God saying "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
I don't understand what kind of weight those words have is Adam is already going to die. I mean, a little common sense, a little rationality goes a long way. Death, in general, means separation from God. God is life. So God is basically stating that the day Adam sins (eats the fruit) he would be separated from God, from life. And that happened. Shipped right out of the garden and out of God's presence that very day. Separated from the God given life, and now aging and dying. We will never know what it was like with Adam and Eve being sinless and immortal because God determined that it wouldn't last long. Adam would sin.

Adam's constitution changing from immortal to mortal due to a separation from the source of life is somehow more incredible than God creating everything in seven days from nothing? That's too much for God? Consider the change in animals who went from vegetarian to carnivore, from living freely among humans to being scared half to death of them just over some measly flood. 150 days I believe. Animals change to be able to eat meat, and man learns how to dress them for the dinner table. Everything changed after the flood. People, who were long lived, now dying earlier and earlier, until they reached God's determined 120 years and no more. Have you asked yourself why?

Here is your answer. Adam and Eve were perfect. Their genes were full. There was not a missing gene in the whole genome. They carried in themselves the genes to bring forth every people type we see today, from Andrew the Giant to little pygmies. (Goliath was taller I get it.) The Earth was surrounded by a firmament and by water. This blocked out the deleterious radiation and comsic rays that destroy our genome daily. (well every second of the day). As such, the human genome stayed robust for a long period of time. When the flood happened, that protective water around the Earth came down to Earth. Now the comsic radiation/rays could get in and start wreaking havoc on the human genome, breaking it down. This is why incest became a thing when the law came around. The genome was beginning to reach the point that there would be birth defects through inbreeding. We are now at cousins and even a little further because the genome has deteriorated even more. There are little "timers" built into a genetic structure known as telomeres, and it may be a little known fact, but they don't last past 120 years, if they even make it that long. The oldest known person only had one telomere left when they died, and they didn't make it to 120.

My view is that God contemplated creating man (and woman), one from the dirt, the other from his rib. They were created sinful a word that means "missing the mark" (of the glory that is God. Since God cannot create man within Himself, He had to create time and space and create man from this created matter and then create woman from man's rib. Before God created the man and the woman He said, "Let us make man in our image" which means the "our" is God the Father, God the Son (the Word), and God the Spirit. Now here is a lifeless thing created out of the dirt. This is not God's image for God is not lifeless as the created man was before breathing into his nostrils and animating man and this remained so for a period time, time enough to get the animals to pass him by so he could name them until at the end there was no one suitable for Adam. This took time. And since Adam cooperated in naming the animals there was no command of "thou shalt not" to prove man was created sinful. He was innocent. But when the Commandment came, sin revived, and man died, just as Saul wrote in Romans.

Accurate. Though some say rib may be mistranslated from side, and they make that metaphysical and mean feminine characteristics. (I don't agree, just mentioning it.) They were not created sinful. The mark they are missing is NOT the glory of God. You still don't get what the word sin means. God is the standard. He is holy. There is a standard. That is actually the standard in question, as God commands us to be holy as He is holy. So, when we are not holy it is sin. God has given us a framework of the standard with the ten commandments, and Jesus basically said there is only two. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. This covers everything. Again, God specifically stated that He created in His image and likeness. Yet you refuse to define it and just basically say God lied. Hey, that's between you and God. Leave me out of it. Sin did not revive. Saul said that sin entered the world from the one mans sin (which is clearly stated in Genesis to be eating the fruit), and death entered the world by that sin. So there was no death in the world prior.

Here is Saul:

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Romans 7:7–12.

I can apply these words to Saul, and I can apply these words to me and everyone else. But let's apply them to Adam:

ADAM: What shall I say, then? Is the Commandment sin? God forbid! Nay, I had not known sin but by the Commandment; for I had not known disobedience except the Commandment had said, thou shalt not eat [of it/the tree.] And the Commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the Commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me."

You can't do that. That is not what it was meant for. By the Law. There was no Law in the time of Adam, and there was no Law until Moses. Paul speaks to this specifically. He does to show that Adam corrupted the whole human race, because, even though there was no Law (hence, as it says here, no sin), people were dying all the way from Adam to Moses, without the Law. So the death that came to Adam due to his sin, was passed on to his descendants. That is why we speak of a sin nature, to which death is tied.

In the original statement by Saul in his Roman letter he is using rabbinical argument and the rabbi and Pharisee in Saul becomes clear. He does this several times in his letters. He presents the position, says "God forbid!" (to the conclusion) and then argues negatively to come to the correct conclusion. In Romans 7 Saul asks openly "is the commandment sin?" (Thou shalt not...) and the answer is "No!" It is Saul/Adam who are sinful for the Commandment is given and it reveals that Saul/Adam were sinful because the existence of the [Law]/Commandment is proof of their sinfulness. Saul explains this here: "for by the law [or Commandment] is the knowledge of sin. (Rom.3:20.) The existence of the command of "thou shalt not" proves the man sinful before the act of disobedience. Adam was "alive" and innocent in and around the Garden because God had placed no restriction upon him. But when the Commandment came sinfulness was proved through the existence of "Thou shalt not!"

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Romans 7:9.

Adam was created sinful, but innocent, but when the law came, "sin revived, and I died." If there is no law, there is no sinner. Adam was not sinless for if he were sinless the same as the last Adam, then Adam would not and could not sin. Saul makes good comparisons between the first Adam and the last Adam in 1st Corinthians 15), while one is sinful in his creation, the other is sinless in His birth. Sin does not and cannot be committed by a sinless person - like Christ. Then there is the "adding to God's Word when Adam added to the command not to eat in saying "neither shall ye touch it." We are told in Proverbs 30:6 that adding to God's Word is a sin, it is counted as lying. Lying is a sin, BUT there was no commandment or Law prohibiting Adam from adding to God's Word. It was only later that God included a prohibition against adding to God's Word. It wasn't a sin because God did not make it a sin by prohibiting it. Adam still added to God's Word which later would prove that before the so-called false theology of a "Fall" Adam was already a sinner for adding to God's Word. It's very practical. It was only when God made it a sin did it prove men can and do add to God's Word - like adding Gentiles as a people saved by the cross when there were no Gentiles included in Israel's covenants. If Adam was sinless, as YOU say, then he would not have added to God's Word by saying, "neither shall ye touch it" nor would he have eaten from the forbidden tree. Jesus Christ was sinless - neither was guile found in his mouth. As it is said of Jesus Christ, not only did He not sin, but He was also unable to sin. And THAT is true sinlessness. There was no "Fall" and the existence of a "Thou shalt not" according to Saul, proves one and all are sinners because sin comes from sinners, sin does not come from holy (Jesus Christ.)

Typical textbook answer, that God prevented them from the tree of life because He didn't want sinful mortals. I used to believe that crap just as you do now. But when I became a man I put away childish things like the false theology you believe in because I became a man and was accountable to God to KNOW His Word inside and out and although I do not know everything, I know what I know and speak up about those things that are true. But you still hold on to the textbook theologies. What you believe is not original. All you are doing is regurgitating SOMEONE ELSE'S BIBLE STUDY.

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was only a regular tree God uised to give Adam the KNOWLEDGE of his/their sinfulness and that's all. It didn't change them; there was no metamorphosis; and no halo was lost. God cannot create sinless beings within Himself and so He created this realm we call time and space, or time-space in which to bring forth His Plan of Man.

That is quite possible. God made it into the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It was eating the fruit that was the sin that opened the eyes of Adam and Eve. It changed them. Genesis is SPECIFIC in stating it. Even God was specific. Yet you keep presenting what God said as a lie. God did ask them who told them they were naked. Why? It is possible that that could have happened. However, He already knew what had happened, and thus asked them the actual question asking You ate of that fruit, didn't you? God can create a sinless being, and please, I keep thinking HERETIC HERETIC HERETIC every time you say "within Himself", so please stop. It gets louder each time, especially since I already told you that that is completely irrational talk. It sounds like you are a full blooded heretical gnostic who believes all matter is evil. In fact, as I consider everything you have written on the subject so far, that is the only valid conclusion I can see. Which makes you a gnostic heretic, and I don't think you are.

Man was created sinful because God cannot reduplicate Himself in Himself and the only way man can be created is created fallen short of God's glory, created "missing the mark" of the glory that is God, and God is the standard by which all things created are judged against. The universe was created sinful and every moment it is dying and falling into what scientists say is degenerating into chaos. There is a "metamorphosis but it doesn't come at the beginning, it comes at the end when Christ returns and we are changed in the twinkle, twinkle of His eye, from corruption to incorruption.

1. Man was not created sinful. 2. Please stop with this whole God reduplicating Himself. I have NEVER heard such an argument EVER, not even from heretics. Again, you don't even know what the word GLORY means. Whoever told you lied to your face. The standard that we miss is holiness, which God demands of us. What does Ephesians 1 say, the clearest expression of what God wants? "4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" What does that have to do with glory? NOTHING. Adam and Eve were holy and blameless until... they weren't. They were sinless until... they weren't. There was glory (not God's) in their being holy and blameless. That was diminished the moment they sinned. They fell short of that glory WHEN THEY SINNED. For all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God. How and when did they fall short of the glory of God. When they sinned.

Throw away other peoples' bible studies and do the study under the anointing and let God teach you the things of God rather than rely on man for your beliefs.

No. I will keep the Bible, and study it, as GOd commands through Paul in 2 Timothy 2:15. I will not be ashamed as you, though I am not saying that I don't have reason to be ashamed at this time. I won't give Satan a free pass to twist the truth. You will find NOTHING about ANYS SUCH ANOINTING IN THE BIBLE. IT IS NOT THERE. Even Paul, who said that he was not taught by flesh, spoke nothing of an anointing. NOTHING. I go with the Bible. I liked John MacArthur, but that was because, after 50 years of in depth Bible study, he had a lot of understanding and passed it on as a teacher. It was clear enough that you could weigh what he was saying to see if it was true. You could easily go through the Bible to verify. Paul did not praise the Berans for having some anointing and using that to see if Paul spoke the truth. They went to the scriptures, to their books, checked them to see if it was true. And Paul commended them, and basically said we should be as they.

Because if all you're going to do is regurgitate other peoples' bible studies I might as well be dealing with those who originally put forth those bible studies and theology books. It gets old. Mostly all responses I get to my posts are usually other peoples' bible studies. If you are to rely on textbook responses then throw away your Bible and just post their bible studies. Why study if all you're going to do is give me textbook responses. It's such a drag.

At least they are still anchored in the Bible. You seem to have completely divorced yourself from the Bible to the point that you feel no fear, and you feel free to rewrite it for yourself. You made JESUS HIMSELF a liar when speaking of demons. You need to get back to the Bible. You need someone to show/teach you, just like Apollos, one of the strongest defenders and expounders of truth in the New Testament, was dragged aside by Aquilla and Priscilla so they could teach him about God... correctly, from the Bible.

You need to dump the gnosticisim (I am becoming more certain that you are most certainly leaning gnostic), and get back to the truth. Matter in and of itself is NOT evil. It is ammoral. However, it has been corrupted by sin. Jesus took upon Himself matter and did not become evil, because, matter in and of itself is not evil. You have picked up much in the way of vain reasoning. The Genesis record is pretty clear, but you deny it. You say God did not create man in His own image and likeness even though He SAID IT HIMSELF. However you refuse to consider just what that means, and you made up your own belief. Now you need to go back to the beginning and start all over, because the foundation of your belief is corroded and it is going to collapse.

 

[armylngst]

So, is it something one gains? Who did God gain His glory from?

Again, you apparently have no idea what the definition of glory is. You gain glory by... your actions. It isn't someone giving it to you. Olympic glory, to the olympian who wins gold. Less for silver, and less for bronze. Did they gain it from people? No, the gained it by their actions. They gained the medal from the people.

You say it is not an attribute one has and then post a definition that points exactly to what God has in number 4.
You definitely go beyond your measure of faith in your comments. But I also believe you don't know what THAT means (to go beyond one's measure of faith.)
I am learning more of your lack of biblical understanding of Scripture the more you comment.

"Glory" is what God IS. He didn't "gain" it from somebody else and it is an attribute belonging to Him.

Glory is not what God IS. It is what God HAS. His magnificence and beauty, His creating the universe and all that is in it, His creating man, all bring glory to Him. Again, read the definition. Even if no one sees what you do, if you do something amazing, that is glory to you. You may tell someone about it and then they can "share" in your glory. Are you beginning to understand how glory works?

So, you finally agree with me. Good for you.

Sure. I agree that glory is not an attribute of God, but something attained through who one is (the magnificence and great beauty), and what one does. So sure, I agree with you.

You believe man was created sinless? I have asked and will ask again, tell me, God is sinless, how long before God sin since you believe sin comes from sinlessness?
Answer please.

I don't want to insult you, so I won't answer as you are asking. Why? Because you are again showing you have no idea what sin is. If you are sinless, that means you have no sin. You have not sinned. That is all it means. The one day you sin. Did that sin come from sinlessness? No. No more than saying temptation comes from God, which it does not. We tempt ourselves, and Satan sometimes lends a hand, but the saying should be "Lead us not into temptation for we are perfectly capable of leading ourselves." One goes from being sinless, without sin, to having sin, being sinful once one does sin. And the reason why this happens is because Adam was created innocent, not perfect, not incapable of sin, but innocent with the capacity to sin, and sin He did. God cannot sin. It is logically, rationally, realisticall IMPOSSIBLE. God is the standard. So anything God does is the standard. So God cannot miss the standard, because He IS the standard. Please tell me you knew this. If not you have A LOT of homework to do.

Typical textbook response.
Do you do any original thinking at all?

Original thinking is where heresies come from. So, no. I go with the Bible, my textbook.

I'd prefer you just say "I don't understand what you mean when you say man was created sinful" rather than post the textbook response and use THAT as your source to say I am wrong.

If you know the meaning of the word sinful, then you would know why I don't need to ask you what you mean. Sinful has a very direct meaning. "full of sin". Or as the dictonary says "1. tainted with, marked by, or full of sin : wicked" So if God created man sinful, then God tainted or marked His creation with sin or wickedness. However, as you keep saying, sin doesn't come from sinfulness, so if God is siness, how can He taint or mark His creation with sin or wickedness? Please answer.

Of course animals were created sinful just as man was. Animals die. Are you telling me God placed the judgment of death for sin upon the animal world for Adam's sin? They didn't sin against God. Why do you have them being judged for committing sin when they did not eat from the Tree of Good and Evil?

This is where you are wrong. We don't know what would happen if Adam and Eve never sinned because God never allowed that possibility. He determined Adam WOULD sin. Nothing else would happen. So Adam and Eve were never intended to remain immortal, but to become mortal sinners. And all creation was corrupted by Adam's actions, and cursed by sin. It changed everything. It transformed Adam and Eve from people who had no clue what sin was, to knowing what sin is, and committing it. Prior they knew nothing. Their eyes were opened when they ate the fruit, and they knew. And the Bible records that transformation in that the moment they ate, the moment sin entered the world, they knew they were naked. That same change happened to you. When you were young, you knew nothing about what nakedness meant. It didn't affect you until you hit around 12-13 years of age. Then your body changed, and you.. noticed. Your mind changed.

God doesn't place death as the judgment for sin upon the innocent animals because of Adam's sin. But that's what you are saying and in saying that make God unjust to condemn the innocent animals for the sin of someone else.
Good work. You're wrong.

Again, you apparently have no idea about the logic, and "laws" that govern the creation and the universe. Animals do not have a soul like we have, they are not "special" like we are, even Jesus told us that when He gave His whole TED talk on not worrying. Adam's actions corrupted all creation, and that included the animals. Paul is clear that death entered the world, entered creation, by Adam's sin. He explicitly says that, and when Paul says something, it is God who is saying it through Paul. (The Bible is the INSPIRED word of God. Men moved by the Spirit wrote the words, as God inspired them.)

Everything in the physical universe is sinful. It dies in time. And Adam and the woman even if they had not disobeyed and ate from the tree in time would have died. They were not created eternal. If they were also eternal along with their being sinless why would God deny them the Tree of Life and they live forever?

Ah, so you really are a gnostic. Everything in the physical universe means matter. And you say it is sinful/evil. That is gnosticism. Jesus came into the physical universe, which means that you are saying Jesus too was sinful, right? Or perhaps you, like the dualists, don't believe Jesus came to Earth physically, but it was all spiritual, to include the crucifixion? Or perhaps a Nestorian, and Jesus was born physically, and was only human, but the Spirit of God/Jesus came upon Jesus at baptism, and left Him at crucifixion. Is that warmer? Both are heresies. Again, Adam and Eve were not eternal. To be eternal means you have no beginning and no end. Jesus didn't say that those who believe in Him would become eternal, but that they would have life that never ends. He never said it would be life that has no beginning or end. Eternal life for the believer, eternal death for those who do not believe.

Let me guess. You're going to give me the textbook response that God denied them the Tree of Life so they would live forever in that sinful condition, right?

Considering again, it was GOD HIMSELF, who apparently you are trying to correct His mistakes in speaking I guess, who said that He denied them the tree of life so that they wouldn't be sinners who never died. GOD SAID IT. If your so called annointing DENIES GOD'S OWN WORDS, that should tell you that that so called anointing is NOT FROM GOD.
Genesis 3
"22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. 24 He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.

I'm pretty sure you can guess what God was going to say after "live forever--". He showed it by His actions. So please, explain for us how you are higher than God, and can tell us what He ACTUALLY mean. Do you make it your official duty to mansplain away everything God Himself has said? You do understand that we are capable of reading what God said, and understanding what it means, right? We don't need you saying, that isn't what God said, and we can trust you, a sinner, above God.

Well, there's your answer. You say man was created sinless but not eternal? Right here is where they fall short of the glory of God.

No. Paul tells us how man fell short of the glory of God. For all have sinned (so speaking of a specific point in time) and fallen (Gee, I believe when Adam sinned it is called the fall of man) short of the glory of God. So it is by Adam's sin that all mankind fell short of the glory of God. So prior, Adam was on par with God, having not sinned. So by Adam's condition of not having sinned, and his actions of not sinning, Adam did not fall short of the glory of God. (And, if you can't tell by the gift of "language" that it is saying it is Adam's glory in and of HIMSELF that either falls short, or does not fall short of the glory God has... when it comes to sin. Again, Paul is clear that the standard is SIN or NO SIN. So Adam met God's standard before he sinned, and fell short afterwards. How can we be sure that this is the standard? Ephesians 1, and God's command to be holy as He is holy. To be holy is to be free of sin. No sin. Why would God command us to do something that we cannot do? Adam lived it for like what, a day, maybe two? The command can stand, because where we fail and can only fail, Christ succeeds. His sacrifice on the cross. The sin which separates was imputed to Him, and His righteousness was imputed to us. So the holiness is His, that He has given to us as our mediator and as our advocate.

The word from that is "sin." There are only two Persons who can stand before a Holy God blameless, and they are the Holy Son and the Holy Spirit. In order to stand before God blameless Adam and the woman would need to possess ALL the Nature and Deific Attributes of God or he and she would fall short of His glory.

Again, that is absolutely FALSE. The only thing necessary to stand blameless before God is to be... blameless. For all your talk, to miss something this simple is... simply beyond a humans capable to understand. What was God's command for His adopted children given in Ephesians 1? Be holy and blameless. THAT'S IT. Nothing about being God in every way. Again, Paul already said that it is by sin that we have fallen short of the glory of God. NOTHING ELSE. We fall short of God's standard because of sin. That's it. No sin, and we meet God's standard that He holds for His created beings, humans.

Now I KNOW you do not understand fully the ramifications of having a sinless but temporal man on the planet. Just this condition alone (sinless but temporal) is sinful. You have proved me right.
Again.

Considering that is some farcical fantastical creation of your own mind, of course I don't understand. It's completely fabricated. Jesus on Earth was sinless but temporal. Jesus was both God (eternal) and man (temporal). So according to your own words, that makes Jesus sinful. That means Jesus sacrifice was in sin, and there is no salvation in it. What you do not understand is the reason Jesus became MAN is because if He did not, the sacrifice would not save anyone, unless they were gods. This is the reason why the flood came. Destroy the nephilim, who, by no longer being simply human, but hybrids, could not be redeemed. Corrupted beings conceived in the most sinful sin imaginable that had God lock up those angels, those "sons of God" in chains until the day of judgment. You have concocted a heresy. Did you get this from your anointing? something that does not exist anywhere in the scripture, anywhere from the front cover to the maps? There is no mention of an anointing. It is mentioned that the Bible is perfect for everything, and that we are to study the Bible to show ourselves approved unto God. Something you have specifically stated you do not do. So, would that not mean you are no longer approved unto God, and that you are an ashamed workman?

But you place him being involved in the woman's sin. Now you say he wasn't involved or "played no part in any of 'this'." Peter says the angels that sinned are locked up awaiting judgment and yet you contradict Peter and say the fallen angels are loose on the planet. You are very wrong here, too.

I said demons are loose on the planet. They are not angels, and Peter specifically stated that it was angels who are locked up. They are locked up for the same sin of those men in Sodom at Lot's door. They lusted after "strange flesh". The angels for humans, and the humans in Sodom for angels, specifically the two staying with Lot. It was such that even though Lot offered his daughters they said no, and when blinded, they were still fighting to find the door to get to the angels. That is how depraved the men of Sodom were. And, notice how the Bible shows God's answer to Abraham's questions in full display. I believe that Abraham got down to asking if there were 10 righteous people in Sodom/Gomorrah would God destroy it. And God said no. What do we see when it comes to Sodom. ALL the men, EVERY LAST ONE, young and old, were at Lot's door. There were NONE righteous, and God destroyed them. The Bible is VERY direct, and when it is explicit, it is not incorrect, and it doesn't mean something else.

In order to use the "another gospel" on me you need to first understand the original meaning and use Saul makes of the term in Galatians 1. You don't understand what Saul meant and what he was referring to as "another gospel" when he said it.
So, tell me, what is the original meaning of "another gospel" when Saul says it in Galatians 1?

If anyone brings anything other then Christ and Christ crucified, that is, if it changes the nature of Christ, if it changes the nature of His sacrifice, if it adds anything to that, then it is another gospel. The Judaizers added becoming a part of the covenant, following the Law, and being circumcised. And PAUL vehemently attacked them for that. Now, you are probably going to say that I am wrong for saying not following the Law, but that would be because you missed the whole point of Galatians, which was to say that following the Law, and denying Christ will not save. One is saved by faith. If you decide, something you don't seem to understand, that following the Law will save you, then you hit Paul's statement of those who live by the Law will DIE by the Law.

I'm going to leave this conversation now. I grow weary of explaining my position on things when you lack what I know in order to understand what I am saying. But for the record let me say this:
God created man sinful. Man sinned because he was created a sinner and sin comes from sinner, sin does not come from sinlessness.
In general, man possessed NONE of God's glory, Nature, or Deific Attributes that set Him apart from man.
Isaiah said:
There is only ONE God,
there is NONE like Him,
and He gives His glory to NO ONE.

Again, your beliefs are in DIRECT CONTRADICTION with scripture. You have indirectly called Jesus a liar, as well as God Himself. You have directly contradicted, directly and explictly, things God Himself has said. You apparently hold the beliefs you have received, according to you, from your anointing, higher than God Himself. You won't allow scripture to dictate the truth, but only your "anointing". Need I remind you that scripture is quite clear that Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light? You need to be discerning. Consider what I have said before about how Jesus is both God, and temporal man. According to you, temporal man is sinful. Then following the premises that temporal man is sinful, and Jesus was both God and temporal man, then the conclusion must be that Jesus is sinful. That is the same as not confessing Jesus and who Jesus is. What does John say to this?

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already."

So, every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ came as a temporal man (in the form of temporal man, both in nature and appearance), is from God. So tell me, did Jesus come as God and a sinless man, or since Jesus came as a temporal man, was He sinful?

You believe there is more than the One God, three-person Deity, you believe man is like God in every respect when Isaiah says, "there is NONE like Him",

Please stop slandering me. I said that man was made in the image of God/likeness, and that that means that there are ASPECTS of God's nature present in man. You LIE by saying I believe man is like God in EVERY RESPECT. I have EXPLICITLY stated I do not, and showed, through logic how I do not. For your take, you are irrational, and I have pointed that out. However, you cling to the irrational for all your worth.

and you believe God gives His glory to others, in this case, man.

You don't pass your glory on to someone else. Again, this shows that you do not understand what glory is. You can share your glory with someone else, which is not the same as giving it to them, but results in both receiving praise. For instance, say you work on a project and it is all your work, and you receive glory for it. You can share that glory with your coworkers as though they worked on it as well, even though they didnt', or you can keep it for yourself. God doesn't share His glory with anyone else, because it is solely His. No one else did anything that gave Him the glory He has. Since the glory is solely due to Himself, He will not share it with anyone. Another example is if you did everything and receveived glory, it could be taken away from you if someone managed to get everyone to believe that you didn't actually do anything, but that it was in fact them. They take the glory from you, because you never deserved it in the first place. Does that help you understand glory? The only way God could give glory to someone else is if He said it wasn't His in the first place, but actually theirs. That will NEVER HAPPEN.

We are God's glory, in that God created humanity. That brought glory to Him. Creating the universe brought glory to God. You can see all of this in Psalms 8, when David glories in God through God's creation. There is glory in being sinless, however, that glory belongs to the one who is sinless, because they are the one being sinless. However, we have sinned, and therefore we are not holy, we are not blameless, and we do not meet God's standard. We have fallen short of God's glory, which we would meet if we were not sinners and sinful. It is not us taking God's glory, it is glory we have for our actions. And glory is lost by our actions as well. In this case "For all have sinned..." and because we have sinned we have "...fallen short of the glory of God." The verse is "For all have sinned, AND fallen short of the glory of God." That and means continuation. The consequence of having sinned. If you still can't get it, I can't help you.

You violate the Scripture in all your positions and doctrine.
But you are blind to see this.

Wait. How am I violating scriptures by saying God is truthful, Jesus is truthful, what the Bible says explicitly is how it is, etc? How does that violate scripture? Aren't you going to say that you are saying I violate scripture solely because of you and your "anointing", and not because of what scripture says? I mean, you yourself practically underlined GNOSTICISM and said that that is how it is. Everything in the universe is sinful. That is matter, and that is the foundation of gnosticism. All matter is evil. Through that, the gospel is corrupted and undermined, which is why gnosticism is a heresy. Why? That would mean that Jesus is evil/sinful, because Jesus took matter (which is evil according to you) upon Himself in taking on the form of a temporal man. I mean, He was even BORN OF A WOMAN!!!! *GASP* So... who is the one with positions that violate scripture? That violates scripture, so that means it is you.

 

[jeremiah1five]

You still don't get it. God never had an existential crisis. There was never a time that He did not understand what He wanted to do and had to figure it out. God was never any form of clueless. God created angels, apparently outside of time. You can say no, or realize I said apparently, and that we don't have all the information. It may have been in time. The flow of time may exist but God isn't affected. Who knows exactly? Angels are immortal beings. Demons as well, since they were once angels before they followed Lucifer. Those angels in prison didn't follow Lucifer, but sinned during the days of Noah. (The demons sin was from before Adam and Eve's creation, so not with Noah.) Again, can you stop with the reduplication. No one is making an argument for reduplication. How many times do I have to tell you that the word IMAGE in Hebrews in Genesis has NOTHING TO DO WITH COPYING ONESELF, and the object connected to the word IMAGE is NOT A COPY. So PLEASE STOP. The first sin happened in the garden of Eden which was not Jerusalem, or the tree of life would be in Jerusalem. God's throne is in heaven, as was Lucifer, however Lucifer was present with God in the garden during creation.

You can read it yourself.
"6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."

So, I guess they were walking around the garden blind, with their eyes stuck shut? It took eating the fruit for their eyes to open? Really? It speaks of an internal change, or I guess you can say metamorphisis. They went from no knowledge of good and evil, to a knowledge of good and evil, as the serpent said they would. Why doesn't it just spell that out here? It does, when it says that as soon as they ate the fruit they knew that they were naked. Now, perhaps you truly believe that the breath of God, the breath of life is impotent. That is your right. However, I believe that it is not, and that Adam and Eve were immortal. Hence, God saying "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
I don't understand what kind of weight those words have is Adam is already going to die. I mean, a little common sense, a little rationality goes a long way. Death, in general, means separation from God. God is life. So God is basically stating that the day Adam sins (eats the fruit) he would be separated from God, from life. And that happened. Shipped right out of the garden and out of God's presence that very day. Separated from the God given life, and now aging and dying. We will never know what it was like with Adam and Eve being sinless and immortal because God determined that it wouldn't last long. Adam would sin.

Adam's constitution changing from immortal to mortal due to a separation from the source of life is somehow more incredible than God creating everything in seven days from nothing? That's too much for God? Consider the change in animals who went from vegetarian to carnivore, from living freely among humans to being scared half to death of them just over some measly flood. 150 days I believe. Animals change to be able to eat meat, and man learns how to dress them for the dinner table. Everything changed after the flood. People, who were long lived, now dying earlier and earlier, until they reached God's determined 120 years and no more. Have you asked yourself why?

Here is your answer. Adam and Eve were perfect. Their genes were full. There was not a missing gene in the whole genome. They carried in themselves the genes to bring forth every people type we see today, from Andrew the Giant to little pygmies. (Goliath was taller I get it.) The Earth was surrounded by a firmament and by water. This blocked out the deleterious radiation and comsic rays that destroy our genome daily. (well every second of the day). As such, the human genome stayed robust for a long period of time. When the flood happened, that protective water around the Earth came down to Earth. Now the comsic radiation/rays could get in and start wreaking havoc on the human genome, breaking it down. This is why incest became a thing when the law came around. The genome was beginning to reach the point that there would be birth defects through inbreeding. We are now at cousins and even a little further because the genome has deteriorated even more. There are little "timers" built into a genetic structure known as telomeres, and it may be a little known fact, but they don't last past 120 years, if they even make it that long. The oldest known person only had one telomere left when they died, and they didn't make it to 120.


Accurate. Though some say rib may be mistranslated from side, and they make that metaphysical and mean feminine characteristics. (I don't agree, just mentioning it.) They were not created sinful. The mark they are missing is NOT the glory of God. You still don't get what the word sin means. God is the standard. He is holy. There is a standard. That is actually the standard in question, as God commands us to be holy as He is holy. So, when we are not holy it is sin. God has given us a framework of the standard with the ten commandments, and Jesus basically said there is only two. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. This covers everything. Again, God specifically stated that He created in His image and likeness. Yet you refuse to define it and just basically say God lied. Hey, that's between you and God. Leave me out of it. Sin did not revive. Saul said that sin entered the world from the one mans sin (which is clearly stated in Genesis to be eating the fruit), and death entered the world by that sin. So there was no death in the world prior.

You can't do that. That is not what it was meant for. By the Law. There was no Law in the time of Adam, and there was no Law until Moses. Paul speaks to this specifically. He does to show that Adam corrupted the whole human race, because, even though there was no Law (hence, as it says here, no sin), people were dying all the way from Adam to Moses, without the Law. So the death that came to Adam due to his sin, was passed on to his descendants. That is why we speak of a sin nature, to which death is tied.

That is quite possible. God made it into the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It was eating the fruit that was the sin that opened the eyes of Adam and Eve. It changed them. Genesis is SPECIFIC in stating it. Even God was specific. Yet you keep presenting what God said as a lie. God did ask them who told them they were naked. Why? It is possible that that could have happened. However, He already knew what had happened, and thus asked them the actual question asking You ate of that fruit, didn't you? God can create a sinless being, and please, I keep thinking HERETIC HERETIC HERETIC every time you say "within Himself", so please stop. It gets louder each time, especially since I already told you that that is completely irrational talk. It sounds like you are a full blooded heretical gnostic who believes all matter is evil. In fact, as I consider everything you have written on the subject so far, that is the only valid conclusion I can see. Which makes you a gnostic heretic, and I don't think you are.

1. Man was not created sinful. 2. Please stop with this whole God reduplicating Himself. I have NEVER heard such an argument EVER, not even from heretics. Again, you don't even know what the word GLORY means. Whoever told you lied to your face. The standard that we miss is holiness, which God demands of us. What does Ephesians 1 say, the clearest expression of what God wants? "4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" What does that have to do with glory? NOTHING. Adam and Eve were holy and blameless until... they weren't. They were sinless until... they weren't. There was glory (not God's) in their being holy and blameless. That was diminished the moment they sinned. They fell short of that glory WHEN THEY SINNED. For all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God. How and when did they fall short of the glory of God. When they sinned.

No. I will keep the Bible, and study it, as GOd commands through Paul in 2 Timothy 2:15. I will not be ashamed as you, though I am not saying that I don't have reason to be ashamed at this time. I won't give Satan a free pass to twist the truth. You will find NOTHING about ANYS SUCH ANOINTING IN THE BIBLE. IT IS NOT THERE. Even Paul, who said that he was not taught by flesh, spoke nothing of an anointing. NOTHING. I go with the Bible. I liked John MacArthur, but that was because, after 50 years of in depth Bible study, he had a lot of understanding and passed it on as a teacher. It was clear enough that you could weigh what he was saying to see if it was true. You could easily go through the Bible to verify. Paul did not praise the Berans for having some anointing and using that to see if Paul spoke the truth. They went to the scriptures, to their books, checked them to see if it was true. And Paul commended them, and basically said we should be as they.

At least they are still anchored in the Bible. You seem to have completely divorced yourself from the Bible to the point that you feel no fear, and you feel free to rewrite it for yourself. You made JESUS HIMSELF a liar when speaking of demons. You need to get back to the Bible. You need someone to show/teach you, just like Apollos, one of the strongest defenders and expounders of truth in the New Testament, was dragged aside by Aquilla and Priscilla so they could teach him about God... correctly, from the Bible.

You need to dump the gnosticisim (I am becoming more certain that you are most certainly leaning gnostic), and get back to the truth. Matter in and of itself is NOT evil. It is ammoral. However, it has been corrupted by sin. Jesus took upon Himself matter and did not become evil, because, matter in and of itself is not evil. You have picked up much in the way of vain reasoning. The Genesis record is pretty clear, but you deny it. You say God did not create man in His own image and likeness even though He SAID IT HIMSELF. However you refuse to consider just what that means, and you made up your own belief. Now you need to go back to the beginning and start all over, because the foundation of your belief is corroded and it is going to collapse.

No, I "get it." I believe the Scripture and understand them as written without changing the Word of God to suit my pet theories and false theological interpretations which you cling to.
I have a God-centered belief in Scripture, and you have a man-centered belief in Scripture.

Isaiah declared in his writings that there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He [God] gives His glory to NO ONE.
By stating man was sinless in his creation is to violate Isaiah's truth of God by giving man God's Nature and Deific Attributes of sinlessness to man. ONLY GOD is Sinless, but you say that God created man sinless thus making man equal to God and also teach that in man's "sinlessness" who sinned that sin comes from sinlessness and this, too, contradicts Isaiah's word of the One True God. It is impossible for sin to come from sinlessness. The last Adam, Jesus Christ, proved this. He was sinless and He did not sin nor was He able TO sin.

 

[armylngst]

No, I "get it." I believe the Scripture and understand them as written without changing the Word of God to suit my pet theories and false theological interpretations which you cling to.
I have a God-centered belief in Scripture, and you have a man-centered belief in Scripture.

Isaiah declared in his writings that there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He [God] gives His glory to NO ONE.
By stating man was sinless in his creation is to violate Isaiah's truth of God by giving man God's Nature and Deific Attributes of sinlessness to man. ONLY GOD is Sinless, but you say that God created man sinless thus making man equal to God and also teach that in man's "sinlessness" who sinned that sin comes from sinlessness and this, too, contradicts Isaiah's word of the One True God. It is impossible for sin to come from sinlessness. The last Adam, Jesus Christ, proved this. He was sinless and He did not sin nor was He able TO sin.

Okay, I think we need to face this STUPIDITY head on. By stating man was sinless, we are saying Adam had no sin when he was created. He had not sinned before he was created, and he did not sin after he was created UNTIL he ate of the tree. So, if in Adam sin=0, which it did, then Adam is without sin/sinless. And NO, this does not give man God's nature and deific attributes. I have no idea what you are talking about. The reason why God is light and there is no darkness in Him at all is that where there is light, there can be no darkness. Darkness does not exist. It is the absence of light. God is the STANDARD by which sin is measured. So sinless is not some kind of deific attribute. God is the Creator. As such, HE sets the standard as to how HIS creation is to be. If the created abide by that, then they are sinless. The moment they don't, they are no longer sinless. It is a SIMPLE concept.

Adam was created without sin. If Adam was created with sin, as you said, sin comes from sin, and Adam came from God, which would mean...

Adam had no sin UNTIL he sinned. So Adam lived within God's given standard which was, hey do whatever you want just don't eat of that tree over there. As long as Adam did not eat of that tree, Adam was sinless. Adam did not miss the standard God set. Then came the fateful day Adam DID eat the fruit, and DID miss God's standard. At that moment, mankind fell. Adam sinned, and became a sinner. To believe anything else is to deny both God and Christ. Redemption is God bringing mankind and creation back to how it was BEFORE Adam sinned. Hence from having an eternal life, because the life source is God (not being eternal, just having a life that never ends) to being mortal sinners in a living death, back to having eternal life again. That is the whole purpose of Jesus coming. So to be against this is to have another gospel, and to perfectly fit Paul's definition of a heretic.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Okay, I think we need to face this STUPIDITY head on. By stating man was sinless, we are saying Adam had no sin when he was created. He had not sinned before he was created, and he did not sin after he was created UNTIL he ate of the tree. So, if in Adam sin=0, which it did, then Adam is without sin/sinless. And NO, this does not give man God's nature and deific attributes. I have no idea what you are talking about. The reason why God is light and there is no darkness in Him at all is that where there is light, there can be no darkness. Darkness does not exist. It is the absence of light. God is the STANDARD by which sin is measured. So sinless is not some kind of deific attribute. God is the Creator. As such, HE sets the standard as to how HIS creation is to be. If the created abide by that, then they are sinless. The moment they don't, they are no longer sinless. It is a SIMPLE concept.

God is Sinless. God cannot create a sinless Human in Himself so He created time and space in order to create man. But man would be and can only be created sinful because Sinlessness is an Attribute of the Nature of God and Isaiah says God shares His glory (sinlessness) with NO ONE.

Adam was created without sin. If Adam was created with sin, as you said, sin comes from sin, and Adam came from God, which would mean...

Adam had no sin UNTIL he sinned. So Adam lived within God's given standard which was, hey do whatever you want just don't eat of that tree over there. As long as Adam did not eat of that tree, Adam was sinless. Adam did not miss the standard God set. Then came the fateful day Adam DID eat the fruit, and DID miss God's standard. At that moment, mankind fell. Adam sinned, and became a sinner. To believe anything else is to deny both God and Christ. Redemption is God bringing mankind and creation back to how it was BEFORE Adam sinned. Hence from having an eternal life, because the life source is God (not being eternal, just having a life that never ends) to being mortal sinners in a living death, back to having eternal life again. That is the whole purpose of Jesus coming. So to be against this is to have another gospel, and to perfectly fit Paul's definition of a heretic.

You don't have the depth to understand these questions on the doctrine of man according to Scripture.

God cannot create Himself in Himself. Let's start there. Do you know what this statement means?

 

[armylngst]

God is Sinless. God cannot create a sinless Human in Himself so He created time and space in order to create man. But man would be and can only be created sinful because Sinlessness is an Attribute of the Nature of God and Isaiah says God shares His glory (sinlessness) with NO ONE.

You don't have the depth to understand these questions on the doctrine of man according to Scripture.

God cannot create Himself in Himself. Let's start there. Do you know what this statement means?

What are you talking about creating in Himself. Not just a gnostic, but a mystic too? Angels weren't created in time, so does that mean they are God? Lucifer as well, does that mean that he is God? Again, you will not find one single verse in the Bible that says that sinlessness is God's glory. You also apparently don't know what it means to share His glory. If you did, you would have conceded a long time ago. If I have a team of workers, and I make the most incredible computer system that can do everything, that is glory to me. Since I am the only one who worked on it, I do not have to share that glory with anyone. If other people helped, then we share in the glory. God will not give anyone credit for what HE HIMSELF has done. That is what it means to share glory. Adam was sinless until He sinned, at which point He no longer had no sin, but now had sin. So from sinless to sinful. And the transformation is clear. Their eyes were opened to know sin, thus have sin. They knew they were naked. All of this did not happen until sin entered the world, transforming their minds, and their relationship with God. Now, they could die, whereas previously they had everlasting life due to the life being both in and from God.

Where in the Bible does it say ANYONE supported God or assisted God with creating? WHERE? You still don't even understand the definition of glory. And sinlessness is not called glory by God, it is called HOLINESS. You know, that thing God commands us to be. Be holy as He is holy. In Ephesians, Paul says God's standard for His children is holiness and blamelessness. That is, no sin. We can't do that, however Adam had that for a fleeting moment. And then he sinned and ruined everything. I suppose it is too much for you to understand since you gave up the Bible a long time ago for some anointing. One that says that everything physical in the world is sinful/sin. Yet Jesus, the Son of God, was physical in the world, meaning, you made Jesus sinful. Why? Your gnostic belief that matter in and of itself is sin. This leads to the heresies of the first/second century, and later. Gnosticism, dualism, nestorianism, etc. They devised ways to say that Jesus did not come in the flesh, since flesh is matter, and, as you clearly state, all matter is sin. He came in the form of man. That word form means appearance AND NATURE. So if man's nature is sinful, than Jesus nature is sinful, right, since Jesus had a human nature? (It isn't, but I don't think you'll be able to figure out why not.)