Such a ridiculous interpretation could only come from someone intent on destroying the truth of God's word.
The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil
- Thread starter jeremiah1five
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Little pieces. God is logical. We have a philosophical thing that we call logic, however, logic is also present in math and science, and it isn't philosophical there. Cause and effect. That isn't philosophical, it is something you can directly observe. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. That is logic, and logical, and again, can be directly observed. That car over there in the corner cannot both exist and not exist at the same time. That is, again, logic, and it can be directly observed. If the car is invisible, it did not cease to exist. You just don't realize that it is there. So, that means logic is not connected to you. You are not the foundation of logic. It exists IN NATURE. However, given the nature of logic, it cannot be material, and must be immaterial. Therefore, since it is not connected to any single mind within creation, it cannot be a part of the mind of man, or a part of creation. Since it is immaterial, it must have a foundation in the mind, and the only mind that is left, having removed all others, is the mind of God. Therefore, not only is God logical, God IS the basis of all logic. As such, the only way to understand your so-called gotcha statements, is to look at them from God's level.
If you are rich on Earth, how does God see that? Does that put you in God's league? Does that make you rich in God's valuation? Can you compete with God in terms of wealth? Jesus told the rich young man to sell all he has, give it to the poor, and he would have treasure in heaven. (You really need to present Jesus in purity and truth.) Treasure in heaven has immeasurable worth next to what we have on Earth.
Which is worth more? To have the whole world, to be exalted to the highest position in the world, to be known and famous to every last person living on Earth, yet lose your soul, or to have the God who created it all, exalt you above all others? What good is it for you to be known and revered by every last person on Earth, if you stand before God and He says, I don't know you, go away. Does that at all seem logical to you?
And to the last statement, what good is it to live, if by living and saving our own lives, we lose our life? Ourself is sinful, corrupt and damned. However, if we lose our lives for His sake, we gain/save it. So it would seem logical that to gain our life, we must die to ourselves and die FOR HIM. (Dying to self not being literal, but forsaking our wants and desires to seek after His.)
God is logical. It is YOU, who apparently by nature, are illogical.
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You really should look up words instead of giving it your own meaning.
3 good, excellent of its kind:
a. of the several creations, וירא אלהים כי טוֺב and God saw that it was good, excellent Genesis 1:4,10,12,18,21,25 (P); טוֺב מאר כל אשׁר עשׂה והנּה Genesis 1:31 (P) God saw all that he had made, and behold it was very excellent. So
So, for God to create something EXCELLENT that excels all else, it must be sinful? It isn't excellent if it isn't sinful? Other meanings of this word in Hebrew include beautiful, and most outstanding. So, while it is not moral, it seems to be included by the sheer magnitude of the word. God did not create anything that missed the mark, or better stated, God didn't create anything sub-par.
Again, none of what you said actually means anything. It doesn't matter what YOU say, as God is the expert on God, not you. Sin is, again, explicitly defined as, "to miss the mark/standard". That has nothing to do with conformity, and everything to do with... not missing the standard. It is not conformity to the character and nature of God, as you will NEVER be omnipotent, so please, stop with the make believe. (Omnipotence is part of the nature of God, as is omnipresence, and omniscience.) God did not have to create the universe. I mean, the only bit we get in Genesis about the creation of the universe is several words. "and He created the stars also."
To be honest, it isn't even worth my time to talk about how wrong the above is. However:
1. Jude
"6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
2 Peter
"4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;"
Adam had dominion, as God gave it to Adam, and made a statement of it. Did God lie? Man obviously no longer has dominion, but Satan does. I mean, cause and effect. By man's sin, Satan became the Prince of the Power of the Air. He took over. However, God is still the Creator, and as such is like the King of creation, whereas Satan is one who God has given a time to be in charge, but God could end him at any time. (And does end him... see Revelation for spoilers.)
Peter was speaking of two events that are related, and Jude shows this. The angels kept not their first estate, and, according to Jud, Sodom and Gomorrah were punished for doing the same thing. In like manner they gave themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh. That goes back to Noah's flood, where it starts with saying that the sons of God went in to the daughters of men. Sons of God in the Old Testament speaks to angels. So angels, perhaps through possession, sinned. Sodom and Gomorrah, how is it the same? They, even after being blinded, fought to get to the door to "know" the angels staying with Lot. They even refused Lot's daughter. (That was a sin on Lot's part, but it showed the absolute degeneracy of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah.) Hence it says "going after strange flesh".
Again, you seem to REFUSE to recognize that the meaning of the word image in the Old Testament, and the meaning of image given in Colossians 1:15 ARE NOT THE SAME. Two completely different ideas. One speaks to likeness, having aspects, but not a copy. The other speaks of a copy, a duplicate, everything is present in the image that is present in the original. A facsimile. Adam was created in the image and likeness (take the two together) of God, and was NOT any kind of duplicate. He contains aspects of God, that some people say are fingerprints of God. As an example I gave, if another "god" came by and saw us, they would recognize who made us. Jesus, on the other hand, and the word image used in Colossians 1:15, is a duplicate, a copy, containing all God is, which is simple to understand because Jesus is God. Two completely different ideas.
So, a simple yes or no question for you. Did God lie when He said let us create man in our own image and likeness, and then had the author who wrote Genesis write that God did it? (This is NOT a rhetorical question. YES or NO.)
Again, the word SON and the word IMAGE in relation to Jesus (different words than used for Adam...completely different) refer to Jesus as being the same substance as God. In other words Jesus and God, Jesus and the Father, are inseperable. It helps that Jesus Himself said this.
Reason IS logic. Reasoning is having an argument, and having a conclusion that follows from the premises that makes up the argument. Something that is rational (logically speaking) is called sound reasoning. Something that is irrational (illogical) is called unsound reasoning.
Man is not like God because man is a created being. You don't even have to get to fallen short of God's glory. Man is a created thing, GOD IS NOT. Right there is an uncrossable chasm. However, Adam was sinless at his creation. That is, he had no sin. He lived without sin until... HE SINNED. Then he was no longer sinless, but sinful. (Funny how that reasoning works.) Genesis even tells us what happened when he sinned. Nothing says that Adam became less Godlike. It doesn't have to. Genesis was pretty specific in stating that Adam was created by God. The changes that occurred are the curses God placed upon the serpent, Adam, and Eve, but prior, their eyes were open (now knowing the difference between good and evil), and they realized they were naked. In other words, they were overcome by the shame/embarresment of not having clothes.
What theology books. You would do better if you didn't let Satan infect your learning. You have thrown out whole portions of the Bible since they don't line up with your beliefs. You have explicitly stated that both Jesus and God LIED, and somehow that seems to tell me that it isn't God teaching you. How did people in churches founded by Paul learn? Well, they had Paul, Peter and others there to give them theology books and devotionals. I mean, their theology books are in our Bible. And others don't solely rely on the Bible either. John MacArthur, just as an example, had over 50 years of 8 hours a day study of the BIble. (A requirement he gave the church when they asked him to become a pastor in 1969.) He has read books written by many other people, and through the gift of discernment, learned what the BIble teaches. He then, as a pastor, as God has called some to do, teaches others. Where did Apollos, one of the boldest preachers of God in Paul's day, learn to be so bold and true? He was dragged aside by two members of the church, Aquilla and Priscilla, who used the Bible to teach him of God properly. He already had knowledge, but it was incomplete. As far as explicit lies about the One True God, you have given quite a few. I have pointed them out, but you refuse to acknowledge, and continue in your error. Reading what you wrote above, it is no mystery where these errors came from. There is a reason why God wants Christians in church and under a pastor. If God didn't want that, He wouldn't have bothered calling people to be pastors to feed and oversee His flock, and to hold them to a higher standard. That is, if they lead people falsely, they are accountable.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Anyone who is too spiritually minded is no earthly good.
Jesus is speaking about the man's material wealth. This is why he went away "sorrowful."
No man can give away one's spiritual wealth. But if you want to butcher Jesus' words you are "free" to do so.
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. Matthew 19:20–22.
Doh!
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Logic is fundamentally the study of correct reasoning and valid arguments.
It is a formal science, originally a branch of philosophy (and now also a key part of mathematics and computer science), that seeks to establish the principles and criteria we use to distinguish sound reasoning from poor reasoning.
Here is a breakdown of the key concepts:
1. The Core Focus: Arguments and Inferences
Logic examines how we move from a set of starting statements (called premises) to a resulting statement (the conclusion). This process is known as an inference or an argument.
Premises → Inference → Conclusion
2. Validity vs. Truth
Logic is primarily concerned with the structure of the argument, not the content of the statements themselves.
- Validity: This refers to the structure or form of the argument. A valid argument is one where it is impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion to be false. The conclusion must follow logically from the premises.
- Truth: This refers to whether the premises or conclusion accurately reflect reality.
- Soundness: A sound argument is one that is both valid AND has all true premises. This is the highest standard of logical excellence.
- All trees are made of glass. (False Premise)
- An oak is a tree. (True Premise)
- Therefore, an oak is made of glass. (False Conclusion)
- The argument is valid because if the premises were true, the conclusion would be inescapable. But it is unsound because the first premise is false.
- The argument is valid because if the premises were true, the conclusion would be inescapable. But it is unsound because the first premise is false.
3. Major Types of Reasoning
The study of logic is often divided based on the relationship between the premises and the conclusion:
| Type | Definition | Guarantee | Example |
| Deductive Logic (Formal) | Aims to prove a conclusion with certainty by moving from general principles to a specific instance. | If the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. | Premise 1: All men are mortal. Premise 2: Socrates is a man. Conclusion: Therefore, Socrates is mortal. |
| Inductive Logic (Informal) | Aims to draw a probable conclusion by moving from specific observations to a general principle. This is common in science. | The premises make the conclusion likely, but not certain. | Premise 1: The sun has risen every morning for the past 5 billion years. Conclusion: Therefore, the sun will rise tomorrow morning. |
You lean on your own understanding (logic) in the vanity of your mind.
God is not logical. To become rich logic dictates many ways to accumulate wealth. Earn it, steal it, inherit it, embezzle it, save it with interest. We're not talking about God's wealth and man's wealth. We're talking about whether God is logical or not, and He is not logical.
It is illogical that for someone to accumulate wealth he gives it away. There's nothing logical about that. But that's what Jesus instructed the man to do. Illogical.
Illogical is that to exalt oneself you publicize yourself, but God says to humble yourself and I will exalt you.
God is not logical. It is illogical for God to say, if you will find life you must die [to yourself.] Illogical.
And here's the kicker. It is illogical for God to provide a substitutionary sacrifice to die for another. But that's what God did. He did the illogical thing by sending His own Son to die for the sins of another person and persons. The logical thing to do is let anyone who sins against Him to die the death for their sins.
You work on that.
Your argument falls short. You speak from the perspective of one who believes in God. The unbeliever doesn't share your perspective. For them in order to be famous one must do something or say something to bring renown. An actor in a film wants to make it big and play a part in a blockbuster movie. They want to win awards and make lots of money. They don't think about God or things of that nature. They won't even see that by not being a born-again follower of Jesus that the serve the god of this world. And the god of this world is man, not any fallen angel (Lucifer/Satan/Devil.) They don't see that. It's like when God delivered the Hebrews from their bondage in Egypt and led them into the desert to Mount Sinai. There, God makes covenant with them through a mediator named Moses. So, here we have the Hebrews who have God's Law that God expects them to obey. The three parts of God's Law are the Ceremonial Law, the Social Law, and the Moral Law. Gentiles don't have this. God never included them into His covenant with the Hebrew people and seed of Abraham. While the Hebrews offer sacrifices to God on a daily, weekly, monthly, and annual basis. Gentiles aren't doing this. They are born without God, live their whole lives without God, and die without God. And then live without God throughout eternity. Totally separated from God. This repeats itself for centuries. Hebrews have God and Gentiles don't. There's nothing anyone can do about it.
Gentiles don't see it that way. From the moment God gave His Law to the children of Israel in the desert at the time of their deliverance from slavery the Hebrew people are bound by covenant to God and God's Law. Gentiles don't have this. God never gave this to them. They are ignorant of these things. They make their own gods out of wood and stone. They make idols to worship, and their idols don't move or speak or offer anything of eternal value. For centuries Gentiles are born and die without God. They are all outside the grace of God.
But you want to make God into your image, to move about and have His being according to your philosophy of "logic." That is a philosophical construct that God does not obey. While the world prays to gods of wood and stone, the God of Abraham pray to the I AM. While the world seeks glory and honor from men, the Hebrew people are instructed to be humble, and God will exalt you. While the world seeks things in the world that according to men they claim are of value, God laughs at their endeavors to accumulate wealth, honor, and importance from men, God laughs at them all. They will all perish on the last day.
God is not logical. He is paradoxical. How can one be rich if he gives away all that he has to someone else? The rich man went away sorrowful because he had great possessions and did not at that time do what Jesus instructed him to do. It wasn't logical. How does giving away all you possess make one rich? Logically, it would make one poor. But the good news gospel is that when the Holy Spirit of Promise arrived in Acts 2, the man became among the three thousand that were born-again of the Spirit. And the ONE THING that he lacked, God provided. God made him willing on the day he became saved and did not have to "give away all that he owned to the poor." God allowed him to keep his possessions. Here is a man who asked Jesus what he needs to do to INHERIT eternal life. If one thinks about that question, they will see the man needed to do nothing. He was already an inheritor, being the seed of Abraham. He was already obedient to the Law of Moses and Jesus loved him for that. And when the day came for Jesus to die on the cross "for that nation" God welcomed him into his inheritance, and that inheritance was Yahweh Himself.
What is given up is physical wealth, but what is gained is spiritual wealth. It is not a path to material gain. Jesus words here are perfectly logical. You have rebutted your own statement of God not being logical.
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. Matthew 19:20–22.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Go back and read it again. I didn't say he was giving up spiritual wealth.
[On your logic piece] Why? You are clearly wrong. God is logical, and it doesn't matter that you cannot understand that, it does not change the fact that there is a valid argument for everything that has true premises, with a true conclusion. Just because people in a carnal natural man state cannot see that, doesn't change that fact. I guess you don't spend much time reading Paul, because he is ALWAYS speaking in logical terms. Whenever he brings up what God says, it is almost always attached to logical arguments and statements. It's like his primary language. Considering he was a well studied "lawyer" of sorts, logic is the main language.
The logic I speak of, the universal logic that is the underpinnings of the whole creation, is rooted and has its foundation in the mind of God. It is also an argument for the existence of God that is deductive, and has true premises with the true conclusion being, therefore God exists. Once you have reached this point, it is time to learn just who He is, and for that, we have the BIble, and those who have gone before. (Paul, Peter, John, Jesus, etc.)
You forget what God said through John the Baptist.
Matthew 3
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
John the Baptist told the religious leaders of the tribe of Levi, that with God it doesn't matter that they are Abraham's descendants. It doesn't mean a thing. As we see in verse 12, there are both Jews/Israelites/Hebrews who are wheat, and Jews/Israelites/Hebrews that are hell bound chaff. Have you learned nothing from the New Testament? Nothing from Paul? Salvation is by FAITH, not covenant or being children of Abraham. He says that not all who are of Israel are of Israel. So, this alone invalidates your argument above.
This is why you need to present to them the true argument, with the true premises, so they get the true conclusion that they cannot deny. My argument does not fall short. Your understanding falls short. It doesn't matter that they don't share my perspective.
You lack understanding of God's relationship to the world. Was Enoch born totally separated from God? He was not a Hebrew, and He did not have the Law. How about Melchizedek? He wasn't a Hebrew. How about Noah? He also wasn't a Hebrew, but it is clear that God saved him. In fact, God says that he was the only "righteous" man on earth. What about Adam and Eve? How about Abel? What about Seth? You can't answer, because they aren't Hebrews. They are not under the covenant, or any covenant. (Well, there is the Noahic covenant, but that was made with the whole of creation...) Your argument is faulty. It denies both the Old and New Testaments.
Peter and James made it clear the Gentiles don't have it. James made it clear in a letter that God and the church don't require them to have it. If they just follow a couple of things (basically, don't do these heinous sins), then everything would be well with them. That isn't something you say to someone who is going to hell. You are so wrong, it isn't even laughable. Salvation is by faith, not by who you are. The reason non-Jewish Gentiles have faith and are saved is not because the Gentiles did anything special. It is because they were also chosen by God before the foundation of the world, foreordained to the adoption of children. Along with Enoch, Seth, Abel, Melchizedek, Noah, etc. It is, as Jesus said, IMPOSSIBLE for man to be saved. IMPOSSIBLE. WE cannot do it. However, Jesus said, with God, all things are possible. Who knew that that impossible would include non-Jewish Gentiles coming to faith in Jesus and being saved. They are not in the front of any line, as Paul is clear that salvation was first to the Jews. Salvation was of (from ) the Jews. It came to the Jews first, WHO REJECTED. It then moved to the non-Jewish Gentiles, who accepted. (not the whole entire majority. It is speaking in general terms, just as the partial blindness/hardness of Israel (all Hebrews) is speaking in general terms. On one hand, a group of Gentiles is saved, on the other, it is individual Hebrews/Israelites being saved.) Once the fulness of the non-Jewish Gentiles has come in, then God will lift the partial hardening/blindness, and all Israel (only the remnant of God's elect in Israel will still be alive) will be saved. That will be the 1/3 seen in Zechariah. (So yes, your argument also denies the Old Testament prophecies of God's spoken word.)
You really don't understand what it means when I say God is logical. It isn't to meet my beliefs. It speaks to the depths of the foundation of creation. Everything in the universe works as it does because God is logical. It is why we have cause and affect. God put that in motion. Logic is IMMATERIAL. So if you are a materialist, you can't believe in logic. Being immaterial, it must be connected to a mind. If it is connected to the human mind, which changes all the time, then logic would change constantly, and would depend on whose mind we are considering. So, you must avoid schizophrenics, or your world will be inside out and in wacky colors when logic is based in the mind of that schizophrenic person. There will also be the time you open your car door, get in and find yourself sitting on the ground, cut in half by the floor of your car, because your car is both existing and not existing at the same time.
The logic I speak of, the universal logic that is the underpinnings of the whole creation, is rooted and has its foundation in the mind of God. It is also an argument for the existence of God that is deductive, and has true premises with the true conclusion being, therefore God exists. Once you have reached this point, it is time to learn just who He is, and for that, we have the BIble, and those who have gone before. (Paul, Peter, John, Jesus, etc.)
God is absolutely logical. Just because we are finite man who cannot see all the premises, does not mean that God doesn't know the premises that gives the conclusion. And, you are still making Jesus a liar. Jesus did not say that the rich young ruler would be rich if he did such and such. He said that there was one thing the rich young ruler lacked, to be PERFECT, he must sell all he has, give it to the poor, and follow Jesus, and he will have treasure in heaven. His question to Jesus wasn't, how can I be rich? He asked what he must do to have eternal life. Your whole argument is INVALID. (yes, capitalized, underlined, bold, and italicized. It is SOOOOO invalid.) And adding to scripture is a sin. You are making things up here, yet you don't have a problem with it. The only thing we have is Jesus saying that it is impossible for that rich young ruler to enter into the kingdom. The disciples were SHOCKED when Jesus said taht. Why? In their "logic" since God has prospered the young rich ruler and given him all these riches, then he MUST be at the front of the line to get into heaven. Jesus just told them, not only is he not at the front of the line, he's not getting in. Which is why the disciples asked "Then who can be saved?" Jesus basically said... no one. His exact words being "With man this is impossible" FULL STOP. Nothing more about anything man can do. Why? Well, He just said it is impossible. He did add something though. "but...." (big word) "but, with God, all things are possible". Not with Abraham? Not with the covenant? No. With God, all things are possible. Apparently that includes non-Jewish Gentiles being saved by faith.
You forget what God said through John the Baptist.
Matthew 3
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
John the Baptist told the religious leaders of the tribe of Levi, that with God it doesn't matter that they are Abraham's descendants. It doesn't mean a thing. As we see in verse 12, there are both Jews/Israelites/Hebrews who are wheat, and Jews/Israelites/Hebrews that are hell bound chaff. Have you learned nothing from the New Testament? Nothing from Paul? Salvation is by FAITH, not covenant or being children of Abraham. He says that not all who are of Israel are of Israel. So, this alone invalidates your argument above.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Here it is. #120.
You Said: "If God is not logical, then there is no basis for believing anything that God has said in His written word. When Jesus spoke of being rich in that verse He obviously was not referring to being rich in physical wealth. He was speaking being Spiritually rich, in which case He was indeed perfectly logical.
I suspect your objection to God's being logical is precisely why you are so wrong about so much of God's teaching.
------------------------------
I rest my case.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
It says, "God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."
They would still be Hebrew.
And I rest my case. And I repeat: I suspect your objection to God's being logical is precisely why you are so wrong about so much of God's teaching.
And perhaps more to the point, I am not really interested in any interchange with you. You clearly are quite bereft of any NT truths.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Is it logic for God to say that if you want to be rich to give away all you have?
Do you think Elon Musk would abide this "logic" and remain the richest man in the world?
No, God is not logical. You are putting God in a box to obey your man-centered philosophy.
God is not logical at all.
Wow. You don't even recognize Jesus veiled insult to the religious leaders he basically said are damned. (Hell bound. It doesn't matter that they are Hebrew, under the covenant, under the Law, they are hell bound.) Jesus is telling him that it doesn't matter that they are descendants of Abraham. To God, they are a dime a dozen. God could turn the rocks into descendants of Abraham. Jesus is saying that being a descendant of Abraham doesn't mean anything. Those religious leaders are still going to hell.
God is logical. I am not sure why you are jumping up and down on His head, trying to knock Him down into the ground over logic. It doesn't matter what you say about God, God is logical. Yes, your logic is base on the system of the world, so of course God is illogical to you. For most of us, our logic is not based in the world system, but in the very foundation of logic, which is God Himself. Is it logical to be rich in this world, if it means you die? Well.. no. Of course not. If one would continue to live by not being rich, then it is logical that one would not want to be rich. If being rich in this world, means you are worthless before God, is it logical to be rich in this world? Depends on who you believe God to be. Apparently, with your view of God, you'd better be rich in this world, that's all there is right? However, if God is the one to know for the hook up, the one who can save you from this world, and all you need to be saved is be poor, then, logically speaking... be poor.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Impossible. All Jews born of the seed of Abraham are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. This was the reason why He was prophesied and why He came. He is Israel's Messiah, Deliverer, Lord, and Savior. Many of the religious leaders came to faith in Jesus over time. Jesus said "none were lost" meaning those He came to save were saved. Everyone.
You are being taught things inconsistent with Scripture. Jesus didn't come to judge; He came to save. Within the first five years many of the priests came to faith in Jesus. Scripture calls them a "great company" which if the Sanhedrin consisted of 70 priests then "a great company" comes to over 35 priests that came to faith in Christ. That's a majority.
7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith. Acts 6:6–7.
You are being taught things contrary to the Word of God. You forget the reason why God sent His Son. To redeem Israel.
45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Mark 10:45.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:25–27.
Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Covenant Law. He is the beginning of the New Covenant between God and the House of Israel and the House of Judah.
You need to stop hating on those Jesus came to save. Next thing you'll tell me is that Judas is in hell, too.
Believe the Scripture. Whoever you are learning from needs to go back to school and study under the anointing the Word of God and maybe they will come closer to the knowledge of the truth.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Jesus said, if you want to be rich give away all you have to the poor.
THAT is not logical. It is illogical.
[This is mostly Bible verses you disagree with, that are the Holy Word out of God's own mouth.]
Considering the Bible is clear that this is absolutely not true, you deny the most important statements of the Bible, which are "THUS SAITH THE LORD". You are very much wrong. You have deceived yourself to believe in a gospel that even Jesus Himself says is not true. I take it you completely missed the understanding of John 3?
"3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.[c] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You[d] must be born again.’ 8 The wind[e] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Here it is again clear that it is not children of Abraham who are saved, but those who are born again. Paul speaks of Abraham as two peoples. Those born to Hagar, and those born to Isaac. Those born to Hagar are under the Law, and thus damned. Those who are of Isaac are of the Spirit, as Jesus speaks of here. They are the ones who are saved. And the promises of Genesis put non-Jewish Gentiles into this category, because it is the category of FAITH, not the Law. Faith in Christ.
"9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you[f] do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.[g] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.[h]"
There is that belief thing again. If all Jews, as you say, ALL ISRAEL, ALL HEBREWS, ALL CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM are automatically saved, why did Jesus bother having apostles? Is that not a waste of time? If they are saved ANYWAY, why waste the energy? Why have a covenant to be violated, if it doesn't matter that they violated the covenant and they are saved anyway? If heretical universalism is the rule of the day, why bother? (With the ranks of Hebrews, descendants of Abraham. It is still universalism, which is still a hellish heresy.)
Consider Zechariah, which is all "THUS SAITH THE LORD". I understand you disagree with what God said, but there is nothing you can do about it.
Zechariah 8 (I told you about this one more than once.)
"20 “Thus says the Lord of hosts: Peoples shall yet come, even the inhabitants of many cities. 21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, ‘Let us go at once to entreat the favor of the Lord and to seek the Lord of hosts; I myself am going.’ 22 Many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the Lord. 23 Thus says the Lord of hosts:In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’”
Zechariah 13
"7 “Awake, O sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who stands next to me,”
declares the Lord of hosts.
“Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered;
I will turn my hand against the little ones.
8 In the whole land, declares the Lord,
two thirds shall be cut off and perish,
and one third shall be left alive.
9 And I will put this third into the fire,
and refine them as one refines silver,
and test them as gold is tested.
They will call upon my name,
and I will answer them.
I will say, ‘They are my people’;
and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”
So not all Israel will be saved, but 1/3rd at the end will be purged, saved, and claimed as God's people, and will claim God as their God. The remnant, the elect remnant of Israel.
Acts 15
"6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”
(Do note that the word for Gentiles here is ἔθνη, a form of the same word below which states it is especially of those who are non-Jewish.) I already explained that when it says that a person feared God, this is never said about a Hebrew/Jew, but only of those who are not Jewish or Hebrew. They were likely to become proselytes, but that is not the same as being Hebrew or Jewish. If they were of partial Hebrew or Jewish ancestry and chose to take up their Jewish heritage, they would not be proselytes, but are known as converts in Hebrew. (Proselyte and convert in Hebrew are two completely different words.)
First of all, the word Hellen, which is translated as Greek:
1. a Hellen (Grecian) or inhabitant of Hellas
2. (by extension) a Greek-speaking person
3. (especially) a non-Jew, i.e. a Gentile
example Acts 16:3. Timothy's father was a Greek, and because of this, Paul had Timothy circumcised. (His mother was Hebrew/Jewish I believe.) This word for Greek is the same as used in Acts 14.
"Now at Iconium they entered together into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed. 2 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.
These Gentiles are not the same as the Greeks. Two completely different words. Being pagan, that kind of locks out the Hebrews/Jews. They are also said the be HEATHEN, which definitely locks out the Hebrews/Jews. (KJV says heathen in place of Gentiles in some verses.)
Gentiles ἔθνος
1. a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe
2. (specially) a foreign (non-Jewish) one, Gentiles
3. (usually, by implication) pagan
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Again, you make Jesus a LIAR. That is not what Jesus said. If this is what the anointing is telling you, you need to question your anointing in line with 1 John. Since you make Jesus out to be a liar, how can you accept who Jesus is, which is God? God cannot lie/sin, yet, once again you make Jesus a liar. And you have done this on more than one occassion (making Jesus/God a liar). I point them out, but you have no answer but to double down on Jesus/God having lied. IF Jesus/God lied, then He is a sinner just like you and me, and therefore, you do not believe in the Jesus/God of the Bible.
"17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
Why was the rich man grieved? Was it because Jesus just explained to him how to be rich? No, Jesus did no such thing. Jesus was answering the rich young ruler's question of how to inherit eternal life. The point Jesus was making is as long as that rich young ruler trusts in riches, and does not trust in Jesus, he will not inherit eternal life. As long as the rich young ruler's love is his riches/money, there is no room for love of God. Be in the world (not much of a choice for us), but not OF the world.
Jesus point is covered with Saul/Paul. God intervened DIRECTLY with Saul, or Saul would have just kept right on going persecuting the church, and nothing the church said or did would have changed that. With men it is impossible, but with God, the impossible is possible. And that is logical, if you actually understand God, man, and God's relationship with man.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
You have a fatalistic view of Jesus Christ and of the good news behind His Ministry to Israel. But that's what happens when Gentiles re-interpret the Hebrew Scripture (Genesis to Revelation.)
Christ was promised to Israel and to Israel He came, to save that which was lost and to redeem the Hebrew people to Himself. As a Hebrew from the tribe of Judah Jesus came to save the Hebrew nation. And this He did. Whether you want to believe the Scripture that focuses on His Ministry to the Hebrew people. Last I checked there were twelve Hebrews at the last Passover of Jesus. They all rejected and abandoned Him when the soldiers came calling. In your world of false gospel it seems all the twelve disciples except Judas are damned. Jesus called Judas "friend" and the only other person God called friend was Abraham. There are no friends of God in hell.
Go back to school and stop being a fatalist where the good news is concerned, the good news about Jesus Christ because there are more than one good news in the bible than just His.
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