The Old Testament: Obsolete and Embarrassing or still valid today?

[jeremiah1five]

Heb. 7: 11 If therefore perfection were by "the Levitical priesthood", (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth "another priest",

The Temporary Levitical Priesthood, was a Priesthood where only a Levite could minister before God in the Priests office. (EX. 28:41 When Jesus became our high Priest, it caused, by necessity, a change in that Law.

According to God's definition of His Own New covenant described in Jeremiah and Hebrews, there are 2 things that changed between the old and New Covenant God was speaking to.

#1. The manner in which God's Laws were administered.

#2. The manner in which sins are forgiven.

Describe the "manner" between how the Law forgave sins and the change.

Both these things were provided by the Levitical Priesthood Law that Abraham didn't have because it wasn't "ADDED" until 430 years after Abraham obeyed God's Laws, Statutes and commandments.

The only command God gave Abraham was circumcision. And the Abraham Covenant was with the seed of Abraham, or a people later to be identified as his seed or the children of Abraham. Were non-Hebrew Gentiles ever included in the Abraham and Mosaic Covenants when they were made?

In the old covenant that God is speaking to, men received God's Laws through the Levitical Priesthood.

Actually, God's Laws were given through Moses not through any established Levitical priesthood.

It was also required, "by LAW", that a man take an animal to the Levite Priest and kill it for the remission of their sins.

If the animal was killed for the sins of the Hebrew people and Jesus fulfilled the Law and offered Himself as substitute of the animal, then Jesus died in accordance with the Law and died for the sins of the Hebrew people in covenant with God. Is that your conclusion where Jesus fulfilled the Law on the manner of how God Himself atoned sins?

The Jesus "of the Bible" ushered in the prophesied "New Priesthood", not after the Order of Aaron, but after the Order of Melchizedek, as it was for Abraham.

And Saul was able to come to these conclusions through study of the Hebrew Scripture (Genesis to Malachi)?

The Levitical Priesthood LAW concerning sacrifices and burnt offerings for sin wasn't "ADDED" until after the Golden calf, and was only to be in place "Till the True Lamb of God should come".

At which time it became old, and as prophesied, was ready to pass away.

Psalms 110: 4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.


God's Law was never prophesied to "pass away" as Jesus tells us.

I agree. The author of Hebrews says it is "ready" to vanish away but doesn't declare IT HAS vanished away for Jews that became born-again continued to obey the Law and observe its precepts and commands except now its understanding was spiritual instead of letter.

And neither jot nor tittle has passed away because not all jots and tittles have been fulfilled. There are still prophecies to be fulfilled which are yet future. All three Hebrew covenants (Abraham, Mosaic, New) are eternal or everlasting and forever.

In your studies is there any passage of Scripture in which God made covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles?

 

[synergy]

To: @jeremiah1five

Tell me something. How do Jews follow the New Covenant ordinance as instituted by Christ Himself and as practiced for 2000 years by all Christians?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Thank you for explaining why the Old Covenant is becoming obsolete, growing old, and is ready to vanish away. It's being superceded by the New Covenant that has Christ.

The author of Hebrews says it is "READY" to pass away, but he doesn't say WHEN or IT HAS passed away. The word "ready" is tentative.

tentative: Under terms not final or fully worked out or agreed upon

Jesus fulfilled the Law for all people. That we can agree on.

And Jesus fulfilled the Law in its scope upon which the animal sacrifice was made for which are the children of Israel. So, if Jesus fulfilled the Law and was substitute for the animal sacrifice which was slain for the sins of the children of Israel, then Jesus as substitute was slain for the sins of the children of Israel under the Law. He did not come to change the Law but to fulfill it. Thus Jesus, as with the animal that was sacrificed, was slain to atone for the sins of the children of Israel ONLY.

Tell me exactly where in the NT does it say the Law was resurrected to "newness of life".

Tell me where it says the Law vanished away and gone (past tense.)

The animal sacrificed in the OT was not Christ.

He was substituted for the animal and if the animal slain atoned for the sins of the children of Israel and Jesus was substituted for that animal, then it is reasonable and logical to conclude Jesus died for the sins of the children of Israel ONLY just as the animal was slain for the sins of the children of Israel ONLY.

If you think that the OT actually had Christ in a form of an animal then you are more of a Judaizer than I previously thought. It's only the New Covenant that we actually have Christ.

It's about time you finally understand the work of Christ "for His people" to save them from their sin.

His people are the Hebrew people. All twelve tribes all the way to Abraham.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Heb 8:13 talks about the Old Covenant. You're the one who switches the subject to the OT in our conversation and makes a total mess of things.

In typical fashion, you keep running away from the fact that Apostle Paul (and the entire NT) has included Gentiles in the New Covenant. Your Judaizing spirit can't stand that fact. It's time to give it the boot.

The New Covenant is the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled by Christ and this is signified by the Last Supper (Passover) which is a Hebrew observance, not a Gentile one. Christ died to atone for the sins of the Children of Israel under the Law.

Here's some New Testament for you:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal. 4:4–5.

 

[synergy]

The author of Hebrews says it is "READY" to pass away, but he doesn't say WHEN or IT HAS passed away. The word "ready" is tentative.

tentative: Under terms not final or fully worked out or agreed upon

And Jesus fulfilled the Law in its scope upon which the animal sacrifice was made for which are the children of Israel. So, if Jesus fulfilled the Law and was substitute for the animal sacrifice which was slain for the sins of the children of Israel, then Jesus as substitute was slain for the sins of the children of Israel under the Law. He did not come to change the Law but to fulfill it. Thus Jesus, as with the animal that was sacrificed, was slain to atone for the sins of the children of Israel ONLY.

Tell me where it says the Law vanished away and gone (past tense.)

He was substituted for the animal and if the animal slain atoned for the sins of the children of Israel and Jesus was substituted for that animal, then it is reasonable and logical to conclude Jesus died for the sins of the children of Israel ONLY just as the animal was slain for the sins of the children of Israel ONLY.

His people are the Hebrew people. All twelve tribes all the way to Abraham.

If you think that an animal sacrifice has the same power/effectivity as Christ's Sacrifice on the Cross then you go to the head of the Judaizer 101 Class.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Hello @jeremiah1five

Yes, the book of Hebrews was written to the believing remnant of Israel. I agree. I also agree that the covenants were made with God's People Israel too. I have never said otherwise. You have not listened to what I have said to you time and again.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

No, you add Gentiles to the Hebrew covenants and when I ask you to show me when the covenants were made to show me Gentiles included in the covenants you can't do it and we both know why.
That's because there are no Gentiles included in ANY of the three Hebrew Covenants.

 

[jeremiah1five]

To: @jeremiah1five

Tell me something. How do Jews follow the New Covenant ordinance as instituted by Christ Himself and as practiced for 2000 years by all Christians?

Jews are being blinded by God but there are Jews that are born again and have been since the first Jews were born again at Pentecost. True, biblical Christianity is moored to the Hebrew covenants and the Hebrew people. The first Jewish Christians remained obedient and observant to the Law of Moses as well as Saul. He, too, was obedient and observant to the Law of Moses. They all were especially as born-again Christians.

 

[synergy]

The New Covenant is the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled by Christ and this is signified by the Last Supper (Passover) which is a Hebrew observance, not a Gentile one. Christ died to atone for the sins of the Children of Israel under the Law.

Here's some New Testament for you:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal. 4:4–5.

Included with believing Jews are believing Gentiles in the New Covenant. Read Luke 22:20 and then Eph 2:11-13.

20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

Gentiles are definitely part of that New Covenant brought near by the blood of Christ, as declared by Paul in Eph 2:11-13

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Why don't you believe Paul? I thought he was your favorite Apostle of all times.

 

[jeremiah1five]

If you think that an animal sacrifice has the same power/effectivity as Christ's Sacrifice on the Cross then you go to the head of the Judaizer 101 Class.

That's the way God set it up temporarily until He can send a substitute that would do the job eternally.

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal. 4:4–5.

God NEVER says this about Gentiles. Gentiles are still under judgment from God for there is no atonement offered to them of God. None.

 

[synergy]

That's the way God set it up temporarily until He can send a substitute that would do the job eternally.

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal. 4:4–5.

God NEVER says this about Gentiles. Gentiles are still under judgment from God for there is no atonement offered to them of God. None.

Gentiles are included in the New Covenant by the Blood of Christ. Read Luke 22:20 and then Eph 2:11-13.

20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

Gentiles are definitely part of that New Covenant brought near by the blood of Christ, as declared by Paul in Eph 2:11-13

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Why don't you believe Paul? I thought he was your favorite Apostle of all times.

 

[Studyman]

Describe the "manner" between how the Law forgave sins and the change.

I never said the "LAW" forgave sins. The scriptures I posted never said the "Law" forgave sins. And yet you ask me a question founded on the implication that I suggested the "LAW" forgave sins.

I get this kind of crap all the time from self-professing "Christians" on this forum. Please don't treat me in the same manner as so many others.

I am happy to answer your questions and discuss scriptures. Only God can forgive sins.

In the Law and Prophets, God provided a manner in which HE would forgive sins. You can find this in Lev. 4, should you be interested in what is actually written. This manner required Levite Priests, animal sacrifices, and various priesthood works to be carried out before God would forgive a man's sin. (Hebrews 7-10 lay these truths out nicely)

Lev. 4: 27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; 28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned. 29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering. 30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar. 31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

This "Priesthood Covenant" wasn't given to Israel in the day God brought them out of Egypt, and Abraham also was not under this law, as it was not "ADDED" to God commandments, statutes and Judgments until after Israel Transgressed with the golden calf. This "law" was to be in place, until the prophesied Priest of God, after the "order of Melchizedek" should come. At that time, the Priesthood covenant would change, there would be no more Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "works" to be performed in order for God to forgive sins. After that time, God Himself, would provide for the sacrifice and forgive the sin. He details this in His Promise of His New covenant.

Now we no longer go to a temple made of wood and stone to hear Moses and the Prophets, as we all have the Oracles of God in our own homes. Nor do we go to a man made temple with a righteous unblemished offering in the form of a clean animal that we kill and offer to God, through a Levite Priest, it's blood for remission of sins (as per the law). Our repentance is shown a different way, and our Priest is no longer a mortal man from the tribe of Levi, rather, we go to the Priest of God "After the Order of Melchizedek" who has no end and no beginning, with repentance for the remission of our sins.

At least this is what the Scriptures actually teach.

The only command God gave Abraham was circumcision.

This is simply a false statement.

Gen. 12: 1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

Gen. 17: 1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Gen. 18: 17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall "keep the way of the LORD", to "do justice and judgment"; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Gen. 22: 1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. 2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Gen. 26: 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, "my" commandments, "my" statutes, and "my" laws.

It is clear that the Holy scriptures do not record every discussion, every word spoken between Abraham and His God. But there is enough recorded to understand without question that Abraham obeyed God's Laws, Statutes, Judgments. But Levi wasn't even born yet, therefore, He couldn't be, and wasn't under the Levitical Priesthood Covenant, as it wasn't even ADDED until 430 years after Abraham obeyed God's Statutes, Commandments and Laws.

Therefore, your statement;

The only command God gave Abraham was circumcision.

Is Scripturally wrong. I am glad to continue in this discussion, once you have addressed your error.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Included with believing Jews are believing Gentiles in the New Covenant. Read Luke 22:20 and then Eph 2:11-13.

20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

Gentiles are definitely part of that New Covenant brought near by the blood of Christ, as declared by Paul in Eph 2:11-13

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Why don't you believe Paul? I thought he was your favorite Apostle of all times.

These are not non-Hebrew Gentiles, but Jews, like Samaritans, that are of mixed heritage. Samaritans were of mixed heritage, but they were never considered as being Jew. They lived as Gentiles, ate their food, completely oblivious to Jewish Law and culture. Some may have known of a Hebrew parent in their ancestry but these half-Gentile Jews lived as Gentiles and were called Gentiles.
The Abraham Covenant is between God and his seed and if there are any Gentiles that had a Hebrew parent from the exiles then they are still Abraham's seed and called Gentile.

To say non-Hebrew Gentiles are in any of the Hebrew Covenants would be a lie and break Scripture. The only reasonable conclusion is to follow the type and shadow of the Samaritans. As half-Gentile/half-Jew these mutts were still Abraham's seed, and this is all done by God. He scattered His people twice before Christ and they all lived in Gentile lands while only 10% (remnant) returned to Jerusalem. When they arrived, there were mutts everywhere and they lived as Gentiles - even to the point of worshiping their idols. But when I read the passages where the three covenants were made, I see NO Gentiles included in these covenants with God. Thus, to add non-Hebrew Gentiles after the fact and after these covenants were closed by God is to break Scripture and call God a liar.

 

[synergy]

These are not non-Hebrew Gentiles, but Jews, like Samaritans, that are of mixed heritage. Samaritans were of mixed heritage, but they were never considered as being Jew. They lived as Gentiles, ate their food, completely oblivious to Jewish Law and culture. Some may have known of a Hebrew parent in their ancestry but these half-Gentile Jews lived as Gentiles and were called Gentiles.

Now you want us to believe that all Ephesian Gentiles had Hebrew heritage one way or another. You have no proof whatsoever but why should that stop you? Let's keep inventing further Judaizing dreams. Let's make Hebrew one way or another all God Fearers like Cornelius, Titus, etc so that they also can be included in the New Covenant. In fact what's to stop us from imaging that the whole world has some Hebrew heritage one way or another, just so that Ephesians aligns with Judaizer heresies.

The Abraham Covenant is between God and his seed and if there are any Gentiles that had a Hebrew parent from the exiles then they are still Abraham's seed and called Gentile.

We're talking about the New Covenant. Is it possible for you to stick to the subject discussed?

To say non-Hebrew Gentiles are in any of the Hebrew Covenants would be a lie and break Scripture. The only reasonable conclusion is to follow the type and shadow of the Samaritans. As half-Gentile/half-Jew these mutts were still Abraham's seed, and this is all done by God. He scattered His people twice before Christ and they all lived in Gentile lands while only 10% (remnant) returned to Jerusalem. When they arrived, there were mutts everywhere and they lived as Gentiles - even to the point of worshiping their idols. But when I read the passages where the three covenants were made, I see NO Gentiles included in these covenants with God. Thus, to add non-Hebrew Gentiles after the fact and after these covenants were closed by God is to break Scripture and call God a liar.

For your theories to hold, you need to prove that all of the Christian Congregations contained no non-Hebrew Gentiles. Prove it or else everything you said will end up in the trash where it belongs.

 

[Complete]

No, you add Gentiles to the Hebrew covenants and when I ask you to show me when the covenants were made to show me Gentiles included in the covenants you can't do it and we both know why.
That's because there are no Gentiles included in ANY of the three Hebrew Covenants.

Wrong person, @jeremiah1five. for I have never done that.

 

[synergy]

No, you add Gentiles to the Hebrew covenants and when I ask you to show me when the covenants were made to show me Gentiles included in the covenants you can't do it and we both know why.
That's because there are no Gentiles included in ANY of the three Hebrew Covenants.

Believing Gentiles are included with believing Jews in the New Covenant. Read Luke 22:20 and then Eph 2:11-13. Gentiles are definitely part of that New Covenant brought near by the blood of Christ, as declared by Paul in Eph 2:11-13.

20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

For any of your pathetic Judaizing theories to hold, you will need to prove that every single one of the Christian Congregations that the Apostles started, presided over, and wrote to contained no non-Hebrew Gentiles. Prove it or else everything you said will end up in the trash where it belongs.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I never said the "LAW" forgave sins. The scriptures I posted never said the "Law" forgave sins. And yet you ask me a question founded on the implication that I suggested the "LAW" forgave sins.

God forgives sins but He does it through the mechanism of the Law. You said there was a change. I understood a change in the priesthood, but the Scripture says the Law itself was changed. What part of the Law changed to accommodate a change in the priesthood?

I get this kind of crap all the time from self-professing "Christians" on this forum. Please don't treat me in the same manner as so many others.

I am happy to answer your questions and discuss scriptures. Only God can forgive sins.

In the Law and Prophets, God provided a manner in which HE would forgive sins. You can find this in Lev. 4, should you be interested in what is actually written. This manner required Levite Priests, animal sacrifices, and various priesthood works to be carried out before God would forgive a man's sin. (Hebrews 7-10 lay these truths out nicely)

This "Priesthood Covenant" wasn't given to Israel in the day God brought them out of Egypt, and Abraham also was not under this law, as it was not "ADDED" to God commandments, statutes and Judgments until after Israel Transgressed with the golden calf. This "law" was to be in place, until the prophesied Priest of God, after the "order of Melchizedek" should come. At that time, the Priesthood covenant would change, there would be no more Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "works" to be performed in order for God to forgive sins. After that time, God Himself, would provide for the sacrifice and forgive the sin. He details this in His Promise of His New covenant.

Now we no longer go to a temple made of wood and stone to hear Moses and the Prophets, as we all have the Oracles of God in our own homes. Nor do we go to a man made temple with a righteous unblemished offering in the form of a clean animal that we kill and offer to God, through a Levite Priest, it's blood for remission of sins (as per the law). Our repentance is shown a different way, and our Priest is no longer a mortal man from the tribe of Levi, rather, we go to the Priest of God "After the Order of Melchizedek" who has no end and no beginning, with repentance for the remission of our sins.

At least this is what the Scriptures actually teach.



This is simply a false statement.

I am addressing the covenant of Genesis 17. The first part of the Abraham covenant is in Genesis 12. Here God promised Abe, "And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed (Gen. 12:2-3.)

1. a great nation.
2. he would be blessed.
3. a great name.
4. he would be a blessing (implied, to others.)
5. Implied: allies would be blessed who bless Abe, enemies would be cursed who curse Abe.
6. all families of the earth shall be blessed (meaning the seed that comes from him would be blessed for they would be the inheritors of the promised God gave Abe. It only refers to those who are his seed and his seed can and would eventually be mixed with other nationalities as what God did and intended in scattering his seed in all history four times throughout Gentile lands: Assyrian, Babylonian, Roman, German.)
Note: God giving land to Abe is implied in verse one,

1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee: Gen. 12:1.

but it is clarified in verse seven in which God declares to give land to Abe's seed.

6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.
7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: Gen. 12:6–7.

18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: Gen. 15:18ff.

Gen. 12: 1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

But Abraham wasn't obedient. He was supposed to take his wife and his household which included servants. Instead he left with his father and his nephew, Lot.

Gen. 17: 1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Gen. 18: 17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall "keep the way of the LORD", to "do justice and judgment"; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Gen. 22: 1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. 2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Gen. 26: 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, "my" commandments, "my" statutes, and "my" laws.

It is clear that the Holy scriptures do not record every discussion, every word spoken between Abraham and His God. But there is enough recorded to understand without question that Abraham obeyed God's Laws, Statutes, Judgments. But Levi wasn't even born yet, therefore, He couldn't be, and wasn't under the Levitical Priesthood Covenant, as it wasn't even ADDED until 430 years after Abraham obeyed God's Statutes, Commandments and Laws.

Therefore, your statement;


Is Scripturally wrong. I am glad to continue in this discussion, once you have addressed your error.

No, the only requirement God made of Abraham was circumcision. The instruction to offer Isaac was not part of the covenant God made with Abraham beginning in Genesis 12 - 15 - 17. These chapters delineate the Abraham covenant God made with Abe.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Now you want us to believe that all Ephesian Gentiles had Hebrew heritage one way or another. You have no proof whatsoever but why should that stop you? Let's keep inventing further Judaizing dreams. Let's make Hebrew one way or another all God Fearers like Cornelius, Titus, etc so that they also can be included in the New Covenant. In fact what's to stop us from imaging that the whole world has some Hebrew heritage one way or another, just so that Ephesians aligns with Judaizer heresies.

Before the conquest of Israel Jew-Gentile offspring was barely minimal. It was after the Assyrian conquest and exile of the northern kingdom that Jews had offspring with Gentiles. Whether through intermarriages, rape, concubinage, slavery, or any other reason to join with a Gentile - even to survive occurred on a greater scale. Samaritans are direct offspring of Jew-Gentile mixed heritage (722 BC.)

When Babylon conquered Judah (southern kingdom 586 BC) those Israelites in Assyria were taken by Babylonians and there were more mixed marriages and scatterings of the Hebrew people as a result. Samaritans were called Samaritans because Samaria was the capital of the northern kingdom. The kingdom animosity continued even to the time Jesus walked the land. Matthew 5:9-11 is Jesus trying to unite the kingdoms through His teaching. Matthew 5:43 is another example of Jesus trying to unite the kingdom since the command to love was given by God to the twelve tribes when they were united at the time of the Tabernacle.
In the gospels there were already Jew-Gentile offspring in the land, and these were seen as half-breed and not considered "Jew" by the more heritage-intact Jews. These Jew-Gentiles lived as Gentiles and raised as Gentiles. But they were still Abraham's seed.

Now be honest with Scripture. The Abraham covenant is between Abram and HIS SEED. There is NO INCLUSION OF GENTILES in this covenant let alone any of the other two covenants (Mosaic, New.) So why do Gentiles break Scripture and ADD Gentiles into the Hebrew covenants when there are NONE? Where in the Law, Psalms, and Prophets are Gentiles included? There are NONE. IF there is any mention of Gentiles in the gospels or in the letters these mentions are referencing Jew-Gentile offspring because mixed-heritage Jews were not seen as Jews but as "second class" people because of the Jew knowledge that the Abraham covenant is with Abraham and his seed despite the fact that Jew-Gentiles are his seed. Jesus in dealing with the Samaritan woman at the well addressed the question in His dealing with her. She was STILL a daughter of Abraham.

Even Saul knew the Scripture as rabbi and Pharisee. Saul knew better than to do anything with non-Hebrew Gentiles because he of all people knew the covenant is with Abraham's seed - NO GENTILES. Saul's letters were addressed to Jews and Jewish Christians and sometimes the discussion had to do with these Jew-Gentile population who were becoming saved and receiving the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL - NOT to non-Hebrew Gentiles.

We're talking about the New Covenant. Is it possible for you to stick to the subject discussed?

For your theories to hold, you need to prove that all of the Christian Congregations contained no non-Hebrew Gentiles. Prove it or else everything you said will end up in the trash where it belongs.

All you need do is accept the Scripture as written and NOT add to it things OR PEOPLE that were never in the Hebrew covenants to begin with.
The Abrahamic covenant is with Abram the Hebrew and with his seed. This is recorded in Genesis. The covenant with Abraham's seed is continued in Exodus in which Gor delivered His Abrahamic seed-people from Egypt as God Promised he would (Gen. 15.)
The New Covenant is only the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled by Jesus and this was made at the last Passover meal in the upper room. The Son implemented this covenant and the Holy Spirit's arrival on Pentecost APPLIED the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled in Christ to the Hebrew people - mixed heritage included as Jesus dealing with the half-Jew/half-Gentile Samaritan woman in John 4 records.

There is NO COVENANT in the Hebrew Scripture of Law, Psalms, and Prophets of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob making any kind of promises to non-Hebrew Gentiles.
Take Scripture as written and STOP adding things and people that are not there.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Wrong person, @jeremiah1five. for I have never done that.

Do you believe non-Hebrew Gentiles are in any of the three Hebrew covenants (Abraham, Mosaic, New)??

 

[jeremiah1five]

Believing Gentiles are included with believing Jews in the New Covenant. Read Luke 22:20 and then Eph 2:11-13. Gentiles are definitely part of that New Covenant brought near by the blood of Christ, as declared by Paul in Eph 2:11-13.

Then this would mean God lied to Abraham that only he and his seed were promised what God promised.
But that is not true. God made covenant with Abram the Hebrew and with his seed and non-Hebrew Gentiles DO NOT come from His seed.

20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Yes, there are half-Jew/half-Gentile offspring who lived as Gentiles in Gentile lands and lived in Israel also.
God made NO COVENANT with non-Hebrew Gentiles. NONE.

For any of your pathetic Judaizing theories to hold, you will need to prove that every single one of the Christian Congregations that the Apostles started, presided over, and wrote to contained no non-Hebrew Gentiles. Prove it or else everything you said will end up in the trash where it belongs.

Non-Hebrew Gentiles (Romans) lived in Israel. There were Roman garrisons in Israel. But God made NO COVENANT with non-Hebrew Gentiles. NONE. All three Hebrew covenants are between God and Abraham and with his seed and non-Hebrews do not come from Abraham's seed. They come from the seed of Ham and Japheth.

I am taking Scripture as written. And Scripture records God making covenant with Abram the Hebrew and with his seed. Anyone who has a Hebrew parent and who is saved must have a Hebrew parent in their ancestry and they are scattered to the four corners of the earth. In 1970 a great exodus occurred in which hundreds of thousands of half-Jew/half-Gentile Jews returned to their land. Most were half-Jew/half-Russian. There were Jews of mixed heritage coming to Israel from all over the world - from Africa, southern Europe, central Europe, western Europe, even from north and south Americas.
God scattered His Hebrew covenant people FOUR TIMES: Assyrian, Babylonian, Roman, and German (1930s.)
Some lived as Jews and according to the Law and Judaism, but they came from OUT OF Gentile lands. Some lived and were raised as Gentiles. How far can you trace your family history? Back to Assyria? To the Roman destruction of Israel (70AD)? How about to the Dark Ages? Can you go that far? Some can trace their families to the 1600s and that is as far as I've heard anyone who is born-again say.
BUT ANYONE who is born-again MUST have at least ONE HEBREW parent in their ancestry BECAUSE I take Scripture as written and in Genesis the Abraham Covenant that started it all was between God and Abram the Hebrew and with his seed. YOU'RE THE ONE and others who add non-Hebrew Gentiles into the Abraham covenant when God didn't even make a covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles.
And the Abraham Covenant IS ETHNICAL. The decade of the 1970s saw a great influx of half-Jew/half-Gentiles returning to Israel. There was a significant wave of Jewish immigration to Israel that occurred during that decade.

It was primarily driven by several factors:

• Soviet Union: The Soviet Union's policies towards Jews were restrictive, and many Jews sought to emigrate to Israel for religious and cultural freedom.
• Arab-Israeli Wars: The Six-Day War in 1967 and the Yom Kippur War in 1973 increased Jewish solidarity and the desire to return to Israel.
• Economic Opportunities: Israel's growing economy and development offered opportunities for many Jews, particularly from Western countries.

The Great Exodus was a major event in Israel's history, significantly increasing the Jewish population and contributing to the country's development.

AND they were ALL mixed heritage. But as long as they were Abraham's seed then they were inheritors of the Abraham covenant promises of God. But God made no covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles. As a matter of fact this is God's attitude to the offspring of Ham and Japheth and all non-Hebrew Gentiles:

17 All nations before him are as nothing;
And they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
Isaiah 40:17.

You have to break Scripture to add any non-Hebrew Gentiles in any of the three Hebrew covenants.
And YOU DO and this is error. I"M KEEPING with Scripture, not YOU.

 

[synergy]

Before the conquest of Israel Jew-Gentile offspring was barely minimal. It was after the Assyrian conquest and exile of the northern kingdom that Jews had offspring with Gentiles. Whether through intermarriages, rape, concubinage, slavery, or any other reason to join with a Gentile - even to survive occurred on a greater scale. Samaritans are direct offspring of Jew-Gentile mixed heritage (722 BC.)

When Babylon conquered Judah (southern kingdom 586 BC) those Israelites in Assyria were taken by Babylonians and there were more mixed marriages and scatterings of the Hebrew people as a result. Samaritans were called Samaritans because Samaria was the capital of the northern kingdom. The kingdom animosity continued even to the time Jesus walked the land. Matthew 5:9-11 is Jesus trying to unite the kingdoms through His teaching. Matthew 5:43 is another example of Jesus trying to unite the kingdom since the command to love was given by God to the twelve tribes when they were united at the time of the Tabernacle.
In the gospels there were already Jew-Gentile offspring in the land, and these were seen as half-breed and not considered "Jew" by the more heritage-intact Jews. These Jew-Gentiles lived as Gentiles and raised as Gentiles. But they were still Abraham's seed.

Now be honest with Scripture. The Abraham covenant is between Abram and HIS SEED. There is NO INCLUSION OF GENTILES in this covenant let alone any of the other two covenants (Mosaic, New.) So why do Gentiles break Scripture and ADD Gentiles into the Hebrew covenants when there are NONE? Where in the Law, Psalms, and Prophets are Gentiles included? There are NONE. IF there is any mention of Gentiles in the gospels or in the letters these mentions are referencing Jew-Gentile offspring because mixed-heritage Jews were not seen as Jews but as "second class" people because of the Jew knowledge that the Abraham covenant is with Abraham and his seed despite the fact that Jew-Gentiles are his seed. Jesus in dealing with the Samaritan woman at the well addressed the question in His dealing with her. She was STILL a daughter of Abraham.

Even Saul knew the Scripture as rabbi and Pharisee. Saul knew better than to do anything with non-Hebrew Gentiles because he of all people knew the covenant is with Abraham's seed - NO GENTILES. Saul's letters were addressed to Jews and Jewish Christians and sometimes the discussion had to do with these Jew-Gentile population who were becoming saved and receiving the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL - NOT to non-Hebrew Gentiles.

All you need do is accept the Scripture as written and NOT add to it things OR PEOPLE that were never in the Hebrew covenants to begin with.
The Abrahamic covenant is with Abram the Hebrew and with his seed. This is recorded in Genesis. The covenant with Abraham's seed is continued in Exodus in which Gor delivered His Abrahamic seed-people from Egypt as God Promised he would (Gen. 15.)
The New Covenant is only the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled by Jesus and this was made at the last Passover meal in the upper room. The Son implemented this covenant and the Holy Spirit's arrival on Pentecost APPLIED the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled in Christ to the Hebrew people - mixed heritage included as Jesus dealing with the half-Jew/half-Gentile Samaritan woman in John 4 records.

There is NO COVENANT in the Hebrew Scripture of Law, Psalms, and Prophets of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob making any kind of promises to non-Hebrew Gentiles.
Take Scripture as written and STOP adding things and people that are not there.

As I told you before, for your theories to hold you need to prove that all of the Christian Congregations that the Apostles planted, presided over, and wrote to contained no non-Hebrew Gentiles. You told us about some Jewish Diaspora migratory paths but nothing you wrote clearly proves that the New Covenant belongs to only those who have Hebrew heritages of one form or another. The New Testament (Luke 22:20 and Eph 2:11-13) even rebukes you. Therefore, your Judaizing theories concerning the New Covenant are ending in the trash where it belongs.