The Old Testament: Obsolete and Embarrassing or still valid today?

[e v e]

Is Jesus from the Old Testament or the New Testament?

I. JESUS: THE SEED OF THE WOMAN

the seed who are His sons are of the woman and Not of treacherous adam. true.

 

[e v e]

the mountain is typically, in OT and in NT, mt tsuin which is eden... thus the pattern of Christ is eden, as was so for moses in his day and later for Christ's apostles and for us. Eden is the earth He made for us, not this earth which resulted from adam.

any notion of anything God says being obsolete is wrong. However just as in Christ day there were false preachers and today as well, the same pharisees an be found in the OT corrupting every context when they write down (false) words mixed in with God's words thus bringing about the sealed vision = the corrupt scroll ..

we know from josephus that the letters of His name were only vocalized but once the people got cursed for disobeying only then they began to write down the words... in that cursed state under esau's (= pharisee) influence ...

 

[koberstein]

Yes, because reference is made to the Decalogue in Hebrews 9:4.

"But now we are released from the Law"

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/spiritual-adultery-romans-7.1653/

Physical circumcision was part of the "everlasting covenant" (Genesis 17:7), but a Christian male does not need to be physically circumcised.
Genesis 17:7. 11
(7) And I will establish My covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
(11) And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt Me and you.

Edit...Name calling

 

[synergy]

THE OLD TESTAMENT: OBSOLETE AND EMBARRASSING OR STILL VALID TODAY?​

If the new covenant brought in by Jesus replaced the old covenant made at Sinai, why do we need to read the Old Testament at all? Hebrews 8:13 tells us,
“By calling this covenant ‘new,' he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.”
Many Christians think that since Yeshua came and fulfilled all the Law in himself, there is no need any longer for the cumbersome and problematic Old Testament. I mean – all that stuff about not eating shellfish, or mixing fibres in your clothes and stoning people – we’ve got over all that now, right? In today's society, so much of what’s written in the Old Testament seems so brutal and irrelevant – what are we supposed to make of it? Wouldn’t it be better if this outdated part of the Bible would just disappear?

DON'T GIVE UP ON THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES JUST YET!​

Although this may be a view held by many believers today, it would be a terrible mistake to ignore the Old Testament, better called the Hebrew Scriptures, since they are neither passé nor redundant. Here’s why.
“All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.” (2 Tim 3:16-17)

Secondly, Jesus said, “the scripture cannot be broken” in John 10:35, and warned us: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them”, in Matthew 5:17. If Jesus thinks the Hebrew Scriptures are important, then maybe, you know, they are.
Thirdly, have you read the New Testament? It’s just as problematic as the Old Testament!
Here’s something Barack Obama said in his keynote speech at the Call to Renewal conference in June 2006:
“Which passages of Scripture should guide our public policy? Should we go with Leviticus which suggests that slavery is OK, and that eating shellfish is an abomination? Or we could go with Deuteronomy which suggests stoning your child if he strays from the faith? Or should we just stick to the Sermon on the Mount, a passage that is so radical that it’s doubtful that our own defense department would survive its application! So before we get carried away, let’s read our Bibles now. Folks haven’t been reading their Bibles!”
Although he is mocking God's word here, Obama has a point when he says “folks haven’t been reading their Bibles”, because if they did, they would find plenty of eye-watering wrath, bewilderment and awkward political incorrectness in the New Testament, and just as much outrageous grace, mercy and radical love in the Old as there is in the New. Unlike Obama, however, I believe that the Old and the New are both powerfully relevant today. There may be parts that are harder to understand than others, but when we dig deeper into those matters that trouble us, we often find that there are incredible riches of God’s character and truth to be found below the surface.

Have you ever considered why God put such challenging books as Leviticus and Deuteronomy at the beginning of his word? The Koran starts with easy, short chapters and becomes increasingly lengthy, challenging and complex, but the Bible seems to be largely the other way around. Why? Perhaps it’s a challenge to the reader – a test. There are those who will take a quick look, scrunch up their noses and turn away, but others will give it more of a chance, showing hope and trust that there is meaning and goodness in these bewildering books even if it is not immediately visible. This is what God is looking for. We see this in the way God presents himself generally – he could easily bedazzle us with his brilliance and glory, making it undeniable and inescapable that he is indeed Lord. But he doesn’t. Why? He respects our free will and choice. He loves us and wants us to love him too, voluntarily, not out of compulsion, but out of our own desire. God wants us to seek him and his words diligently, trusting all the while that he is just, wise and loving… that there are good answers to the things we don’t understand, even if it takes time to find them.
He wants us to consider that he is WORTH IT – worth the pursuit, worth the struggle and worth fighting for. Like the sun that is the perfect distance away from the earth so that we don’t freeze or burn, God cloaks himself in just enough mystery that we are neither compelled to believe him, nor is it impossible to find him. And boy, what a pearl of great price is waiting to be found by those who are willing to seek.

UNDERSTAND THE COVENANTS – THERE ARE NOT TWO BUT FIVE​

Essential in navigating the Bible is to understand the covenants in it. There are not only two covenants, but five (or even more, depending on how you count them). There was the conditional covenant given to Moses on Mount Sinai which the death and resurrection of Yeshua completed, but what about the others?

This helps us to understand why the New Covenant that Jesus introduced does not cancel the whole Old Testament, but only relates to the temporary covenant with Moses, which was very much conditional. Moses himself prophesied that it was just a matter of time before it would all be shot to dust. The people of Israel failed spectacularly, were exiled and punished, and the Mosaic law with its system of sacrifices was replaced by the ultimate, permanent sacrifice of the Messiah, once and for all. A “new and better way” to God was carved out for us in the Messiah's blood. The instructions to live in a God-honouring way were replaced by an even higher standard, with the law written in our hearts and the Holy Spirit given to help us live in the radical way of the Messiah.
However, God's promise to Noah never to flood the earth again still stands, his promises made in his covenant to Abraham were never annulled, and neither was his covenant relating to David's throne. Not only that, but the words of the Mosaic Law also remain valuable to us in helping us appreciate God's nature, his heart, and he has also woven many amazing clues about what was to come throughout the entire Torah. We have written a book on the subject called Reading Moses, Seeing Jesus. The more you study, the more you find! It's a bottomless well of fascination.
God has not reneged on his promises and gifts to Israel (since as Paul says in Romans 11, they are irrevocable) and Yeshua will come and reign on the throne of David. Where is that? Jerusalem! Just as it has been amazing to watch God fulfilling his promises to regather Israel from the nations and reestablish them in the land, so we can look forward to all the other promises that God has made to the nation of Israel coming to pass – they are our bona fide guarantee that God keeps his promises.

“THE LAW IS GOOD, IF YOU USE IT PROPERLY” 1 TIM 1:8​

It is a lifetime’s journey to learn how to understand the Bible and use it properly, but here are a couple of thoughts.

UNDERSTAND THE CONTEXT​

There are arguments about whether or not to take the Bible literally, but it’s better to try and take it literarily – that is, understand what kind of literature it is, and what God is saying through it. Each word is there on purpose, but what is God’s purpose? When Jesus tells parables, he does not need us to believe that there really was a prodigal son, but he wants us to understand the heart of the father in the story he made up to explain his point. In the same way, the Bible is full of all different kinds of stories, poetry, letters, parables, songs, and the book of Job is written as a play. Of course, there is also an enormous amount of history in there that really happened. We need to see first and foremost, who these words are written to, in what context, and what kind of literature it is. When we do this, we have to face an uncomfortable fact: most of the Bible was written to and about the people of Israel. Today we have the privilege of looking over their shoulder and seeing what God said to them, and learn about what God is like through reading it, but we must accept the context of the words we are reading.

UNDERSTANDING ISRAEL IS KEY​

The Bible is not just a collection of good ideas for living and inspirational thoughts – it is real history and geography, past, present and future. Our Messiah was real. His crazy Jewish family was real. He really lived, he really died, he really rose again, and he is coming back again to a real place in real time! If we are to cut out Israel and the Jewish people from the Bible, we would have very little left – God has chosen to hang his story of redemption for all peoples on the story of his chosen people, Israel. Developing an appreciation of God's great story and how very real it is helps us to understand better how to apply his word in our days and how to read prophetic scriptures.

The Bible is a supernatural book containing prophecy and wisdom far greater than anything natural man could concoct – prophecies about the Messiah, Israel and the Middle East, and about world events.
We have the advantage of looking back and comparing the prophecies and Yeshua's life and seeing that the Bible is stunningly accurate in its predictions, and now also the privilege of seeing God's word coming to pass for Israel, but there is much more to come.
The Bible is as relevant today as it ever was – this is the time not to neglect the Scriptures, but to really get to grips with them, so that we can understand the author better, know where he says we are going, and be able to stand strong till the end in his word.

SHALOM

There is great value in the OT in that it all points to the Word of God. As such it confirms the Trinity through the Theophanies of the Word of God.

 

[koberstein]

There is great value in the OT in that it all points to the Word of God. As such it confirms the Trinity through the Theophanies of the Word of God.

I agree. It also points to the coming Messiah in Yeshua. It is also a book of wisdom and history of the Jewish people.

 

[synergy]

I agree. It also points to the coming Messiah in Yeshua. It is also a book of wisdom and history of the Jewish people.

I agree. That's why one of the greatest gifts that the Jewish people ever gave to the Gentiles was to translate the OT into Greek. That gave great legitimacy to the Early Christian Church and to Paul's Epistles as he extensively quoted from the Greek OT.

 

[koberstein]

I agree. That's why one of the greatest gifts that the Jewish people ever gave to the Gentiles was to translate the OT into Greek. That gave great legitimacy to the Early Christian Church and to Paul's Epistles as he extensively quoted from the Greek OT.

I told you sometime ago I ordered some books from Amazon. I finished one of them.
Messianic Judaism isn't Christianity. Really interesting. The book rails against Messianic churches that force Gentiles into adhering to Jewish customs and traditions. It also speaks of a Messianic Rabbi that would not marry a Jewish man and a Gentile woman,
because he didn't want to dilute the Jewish blood in his congregation. Of course, Gentile churches probably look down on Messianic parishioners that keep their Jewish identity
and customs. I'm ready to start my next book! While we may not agree on everything biblically, I treasure our friendship and communication.

 

[synergy]

I told you sometime ago I ordered some books from Amazon. I finished one of them.
Messianic Judaism isn't Christianity. Really interesting. The book rails against Messianic churches that force Gentiles into adhering to Jewish customs and traditions. It also speaks of a Messianic Rabbi that would not marry a Jewish man and a Gentile woman,
because he didn't want to dilute the Jewish blood in his congregation. Of course, Gentile churches probably look down on Messianic parishioners that keep their Jewish identity
and customs. I'm ready to start my next book! While we may not agree on everything biblically, I treasure our friendship and communication.

Both camps should look at Timothy who was born into both cultures (Greek Father and Jewish Mother). And because of that was well equipped to harmonize both camps under the Gospel as Bishop of Ephesus.

I appreciate your friendship also.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The New Covenant IS the Mosaic Covenant FULFILLED. Here are the facts:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Gal. 4:4–7.

Who did Jesus Christ die for?
As in the Mosaic Covenant the sacrifices were offered for the sins of the children of Israel. This is their atonement for one year, but Jesus Christ as "lamb of God" offered Himself TO and FOR the children of Israel who were under the Law to redeem those who were under the Law (vs. 5), that is, the children of Israel. THEY were under the Law and THEY were redeemed as per covenant and prophecy.
The "we" (who might receive the adoption of sons - vs 5) are the children of Israel also called the House of Israel and the House of Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

The mystery which was hidden is Christ ("Anointing") in you (the children of Israel.)

And

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Rom. 7:5–6.

That "serving" is in the Spirit NOT through outward obedience to the Law, but as the Law is spiritual, and as the born-again Jew is also spiritual, obedience to the Law is spiritual not in the outward letter of the Law. Thus, the Law is not obsolete because God uses it in the fulfilled condition which Christ obeyed perfectly and by His being in "us", we have also fulfilled perfectly every aspect of the Law and in this we find our justification. NOW, God uses the Law to sanctify "us" as these passages of Scripture reveal and teach:

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Eph 5:26.

And

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Timothy 3:16.

ALL the commands of God were obeyed and fulfilled perfectly by the Son, who as Lamb of God, died for the children of Israel and redeemed those who were under the Law (Israel), and now God uses the Law to instruct "us" in His righteousness.
If anyone rejects the Law as "abolished" or "obsolete" they have set themselves AGAINST God and have short-circuited God's purpose of His Law in their lives towards their sanctification. The result of this is churches/fellowships that are on the sea without a rudder and sin has enveloped these churches today. If there is no instruction in righteousness, then there will be unrighteousness and the people will lean upon their own understanding just as all these threads discussing and posting false doctrine reveals on sites like this throughout the World Wide Web.
One is either receiving their instruction from the Law or they are not and instead are leaning upon their own understanding in the vanity of their mind. Those that posit that the Law is "obsolete" have set themselves in opposition to God and without His guidance.

 

[e v e]

The only covenant with all the souls of Him is to return to eden paradise.