civic
Well-known member
Exactly you nailed it
The map of calvinism
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Nope. It does not say that. Hearing and learning are the drawing. Not the reason. Keep looking
civic
Well-known member
no it says the ones who come to Me are those who listen and learn from the Father- they already are in relationship with the Father obeying Him.
keep denying....................
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Am I the only one or my answer don't quite fit another gotcha attempt?
Now he's going to tell me what I really believe.
civic
Well-known member
false dilemma fallacy- its both
Nope. Hearing and learning is how they are drawn. Not why they are drawn.
civic
Well-known member
no its why they are drawn- why the Pharisees were not drawn ( the condition ) is they did not listen to the Father nor learn from Him otherwise they would hear, receive, listen to the Son. Since they reject the Son its proof they did not hear the Father, listen to Him or learn from Him.
refuting you from the context is getting way to easy- the readers can follow along and see it too.
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hope this helps !!!
Nope. Hearing and learning are never said to be a conditional. They are a means to a end.no its why they are drawn- why the Pharisees were not drawn ( the condition ) is they did not listen to the Father nor learn from Him otherwise they would hear, receive, listen to the Son. Since they reject the Son its proof they did not hear the Father, listen to Him or learn from Him.
refuting you from the context is getting way to easy- the readers can follow along and see it too.
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hope this helps !!!
What they can see is your failure to bear your burden of proof. It's how they are drawn, not why.
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civic
Well-known member
The Father in John 6 only draws those who already have listened and learned from the Father.
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Jesus later says He will draw everyone, all men to Himself after He is Resurrected- lifted up- John 12:32
no condition.
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down goes tulip with the teaching of Jesus.
hope this helps !!!
Sorry, it does not say that. Repeating yourself ad nauseum won't change that. FailThe Father in John 6 only draws those who already have listened and learned from the Father.
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Jesus later says He will draw everyone, all men to Himself after He is Resurrected- lifted up- John 12:32
no condition.
next..................
down goes tulip with the teaching of Jesus.
hope this helps !!!
Hearing and learning are the means and are not conditional.
John 12 says nothing about hearing and learning. Fail
civic
Well-known member
nope salvation is always conditional.
What's great is the conditions are provided by God. What God requires God provides.nope salvation is always conditional.
SOLA DEO GLORIA
civic
Well-known member
Nope. Faith is a gift of God just as belief and repentance are granted or given to you.
SOLA DEO GLORIA
civic
Well-known member
nope salvation is the gift.
faith is the condition
synergism not monergism is the biblical doctrine.
Sola Christus.
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Nope. Faith is part of salvation, part of the gift. Faith, salvifically, is by or through, never because of......
civic
Well-known member
nowhere is faith said to be a gift to the sinner.
thats nothing but presuppositionalism and eisegesis- reading tulip into scripture- starting out with a false premise.
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atpollard
Well-known member
John 6:43b-45 "Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."
Just for the record, Jesus presents simple statements of fact. Unless someone can show from the Greek Grammar that a "cause-effect" relationship is implied in the original language, the English carries NEITHER an "THIS IS WHY" nor a "THIS IS HOW" relationship between these verses ... just a "BOTH ARE TRUE" statement of fact. One will need to look elsewhere to prove their pet eisegesis of the relationship between these verses [or actually take the effort to PROVE your claims from the original text.]
It does not SAY "condition".
It does not say "means".
If we are to be "good workmen", then we must handle the Word with precision and care.
It says what it says. It is not our place to add to that.
So what EXACTLY does it say?
Just for the record, Jesus presents simple statements of fact. Unless someone can show from the Greek Grammar that a "cause-effect" relationship is implied in the original language, the English carries NEITHER an "THIS IS WHY" nor a "THIS IS HOW" relationship between these verses ... just a "BOTH ARE TRUE" statement of fact. One will need to look elsewhere to prove their pet eisegesis of the relationship between these verses [or actually take the effort to PROVE your claims from the original text.]
It does not SAY "condition".
It does not say "means".
If we are to be "good workmen", then we must handle the Word with precision and care.
It says what it says. It is not our place to add to that.
So what EXACTLY does it say?
- No one can come to [Jesus] unless the Father draws them.
- [Jesus] will raise [those drawn] up at the last day.
- [Those drawn] will all be taught by God [the Father].
- Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to [Jesus].
- No person can "hear and learn" and not come to Jesus [aka. drawn] or some of the statements are false.
- No person can come to Jesus and not be raised.
- No person can come to Jesus without being "taught by God" ... it is not clear if God teaches before or after in that verse (or both), but it is clear that God teaches all that are drawn to the Son.
- Everyone (critical word) who has heard (past tense) the Father and learned (past tense) from Him comes to Jesus ... (Hearing and Learning mean you must come! That is the definition of IRRESISTIBLE, isn't it?)
- That may imply "HOW", but it does not state specifically that it is 100% God and there was no "free will choice", so "WHY" remains a possibility. The fly in the ointment for WHY is the need to be true for EVERYONE. Each side must look elsewhere in Scripture for clarification while keeping all of Jesus statements TRUE.
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Sure it is. Ephesians 2:8,9nowhere is faith said to be a gift to the sinner.
thats nothing but presuppositionalism and eisegesis- reading tulip into scripture- starting out with a false premise.
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Let me help. "For by grace are you saved THROUGH FAITH" , not because of faith, "it is a gift of God.".
SOLA DEO GLORIA
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