The map of calvinism

Where does scripture teach to use real life experience to understand scripture? Especially given our life experiences are all different and the interpretation of said experiences is subjective. We may experience the exact same thing but understand it completely different.
I didn’t say “scripture teach[es] to use real life experience to understand scripture”

I said scripture reveals real life experiences within it, and we can match what we see in real life to what scripture has revealed.

All interpretation is subjective, period! We temper our subjectivity by objective disciplines, especially those of language syntax and grammar, as well as history and other concrete factors, but ultimately all personal interpretations are subjective to our own realities.

Doug
 
Doug, sure we do. Concerning Cain:

1st John 3:12​


“Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.”
That simply tells us that Cain did evil while Able did good in God’s eyes. We know that both are “depraved”, having been born post-fall. But there is no indication that any spiritual change was made in Able or withheld from Cain.

Again, Cain was able to hear and understand the voice of God and interact with him. Able was no different in condition than Cain, but just chose differently.


Not sure what you mean~maybe a typo.
“Sans” means without! There is no life/regeneration sans the Holy Spirit. Happy to have expanded your vocabulary! 😎


Doug
 
Calvinists just don't realize that fact. They think they're on the right path.
Don,
Your comments concern me. As someone who came to believe four of the five points of T.U.*.I.P. from reading scripture as a converted atheist long before I ever heard of "TULIP or Calvin or Arminius", I was wondering if you could clarify for me where I got off the "right path" ...

  • [TD] People are "no darn good" ... incapable of saving themselves, so God must make the first move. [Do sinful people choose God before God calls them? Do people initiate salvation?]
  • [UE]God chooses us for His reasons, not our merit. [Is salvation CONDITIONAL ... MERIT based? Does God choose those that DESERVE saving because they deserve saving?]
  • [LA] Limited Atonement is a silly point to argue over, so I generally don't. NEITHER side advocates UNIVERSAL SALVATION [Everybody is going to heaven] so it is self-evident that the EFFECTS of the Atonement are "limited" to those that are "saved". Nobody argues with the fact that Jesus is GOD, so the BLOOD of the Atonement was "good enough" to cover every sin that ever was or will be. So the argument comes down to Ephesians 2:8-9 and "by grace through faith" ... was the "grace" limited or was the "faith" limited and who is responsible for THAT. [Personally, it always felt like I was treading ground I had no business speaking on ... WHO and HOW God saves is His business and "none of my business".]
  • [IG] Irresistible Grace comes down to one simple question ... [DOES GOD TRY AND FAIL?] ... I stand with Corrie Ten Boom on this one: "God does as He pleases, and He does it right well."
  • [PS] People don't really jump out of God the Father and God the Son's hands, do they? Does the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing an inheritance really guarantee nothing? Did Jesus really lie when he said "never leave" and "lose none" and "have eternal life" and "I will raise them on the last day"? Is the promise nothing more than a "CHANCE" at eternity if WE WORK HARD ENOUGH?

Please, don't leave a converted atheist on the wrong path for trusting the Bible?
Explain the "right path"!
 
Don,
Your comments concern me. As someone who came to believe four of the five points of T.U.*.I.P. from reading scripture as a converted atheist long before I ever heard of "TULIP or Calvin or Arminius", I was wondering if you could clarify for me where I got off the "right path" ...

  • [TD] People are "no darn good" ... incapable of saving themselves, so God must make the first move. [Do sinful people choose God before God calls them? Do people initiate salvation?]
  • [UE]God chooses us for His reasons, not our merit. [Is salvation CONDITIONAL ... MERIT based? Does God choose those that DESERVE saving because they deserve saving?]
  • [LA] Limited Atonement is a silly point to argue over, so I generally don't. NEITHER side advocates UNIVERSAL SALVATION [Everybody is going to heaven] so it is self-evident that the EFFECTS of the Atonement are "limited" to those that are "saved". Nobody argues with the fact that Jesus is GOD, so the BLOOD of the Atonement was "good enough" to cover every sin that ever was or will be. So the argument comes down to Ephesians 2:8-9 and "by grace through faith" ... was the "grace" limited or was the "faith" limited and who is responsible for THAT. [Personally, it always felt like I was treading ground I had no business speaking on ... WHO and HOW God saves is His business and "none of my business".]
  • [IG] Irresistible Grace comes down to one simple question ... [DOES GOD TRY AND FAIL?] ... I stand with Corrie Ten Boom on this one: "God does as He pleases, and He does it right well."
  • [PS] People don't really jump out of God the Father and God the Son's hands, do they? Does the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing an inheritance really guarantee nothing? Did Jesus really lie when he said "never leave" and "lose none" and "have eternal life" and "I will raise them on the last day"? Is the promise nothing more than a "CHANCE" at eternity if WE WORK HARD ENOUGH?

Please, don't leave a converted atheist on the wrong path for trusting the Bible?
Explain the "right path"!
So you were a full-fledged atheist and then became a calvinist? Calvinist know of a god but not the power thereof. Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 2 Timothy 3:5

I suggestion for getting off the wrong path would be to leave Calvinism and find a church that will teach you the truth.
 
You reveal that you are beating a strawman. That statement is nonsensical given the actual doctrine of Total Depravity.

Were Cain, Able, Adam, Eve, Seth, Noah ... pick any Biblical character ... able to choose to BE HOLY AS GOD IS HOLY without God making the first move? Total Depravity (aka. Total Inability) states that every part of man ... our body, our mind, our spirit ... was impacted by the Fall and Adamic curse so that people do not seek God or the ways of God without the call of God. It says the exact same thing that Ephesians 2:1-5 says, so if Total Depravity is false, then Ephesians 2 is false.

How is asking a question “beating a straw man”? That God spoke to Cain and Able at all is an act of Grace. That he established sacrifices for them to offer to him was God moving toward them first.

Doug
 
Don,
Your comments concern me. As someone who came to believe four of the five points of T.U.*.I.P. from reading scripture as a converted atheist long before I ever heard of "TULIP or Calvin or Arminius", I was wondering if you could clarify for me where I got off the "right path" ...

  • [TD] People are "no darn good" ... incapable of saving themselves, so God must make the first move. [Do sinful people choose God before God calls them? Do people initiate salvation?]
adams curse was tending the ground in labor and the woman pain in labor. The curse was not a sin nature since they still communicated with God post fall. The same with Cain if he had a sin nature then why would God tell him sin creeps at the door and give him a choice. It flies in the face of a sin nature and TD. Common sense shows that to be true when reading through those first chapters in Genesis and the Moses left it out for a good reason , it’s not true.

1 John 3:4 " Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness."

Ezekiel 18:20, "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.”

Matthew 18:3, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 19:14, "But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”

If children are born sinners as TD and original sin teaches then Jesus teaches that to be His disciples we must be corrupt like the little children which is an oxymoron.

Death is the curse from the fall not guilt of an individuals sin. A baby cannot sin and can still die. We must not conflate the two

The teaching above by Jesus, Ezekiel and John confirms the OP is true and original sin is not. One becomes a sinner when they sin and become guilty of that sin not before. Babies are born innocent, not guilty. There is no DNA gene making one a sinner that is folklore.

hope this helps !!!
 
So you were a full-fledged atheist and then became a calvinist? Calvinist know of a god but not the power thereof. Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 2 Timothy 3:5

I suggestion for getting off the wrong path would be to leave Calvinism and find a church that will teach you the truth.
I know little of John Calvin or his writings. I heard the gospel from Catholic Charismatics that I suspected were off their meds when I first encountered them. The RCC Church and I quickly and amicably parted company after a few months as I read the Gospel of Luke during the Feast of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin and had a long discussion with the Priest about "your mother and brothers" and the source of all this information about Mary so I could read it for myself.

Then I spent about a decade at The Church of God of Anderson Indiana (part of the Wesleyan Holiness movement and descended from traveling preachers on the Great Plains in the 1800's). Then I attended an Evangelical Free Church, followed by a Pentecostal Church with Moravian roots.

Throughout all this "Arminian/Wesleyan" preaching and teaching, I read the Bible and came to 4 TRUTHS based on scripture and my own conversion:
  1. People are no darn good.
  2. Whatever the reason God chooses to save us, it is NOT because we deserve it ... the reason has everything to do with God and nothing to do with us and what we deserve.
  3. God does not try, God does! God does not ask, God commands.
  4. God finishes what God starts.
I will stick with the word of God over your empty advice that I abandon it and find some cult that you will approve of.

"No one can come to Me [Total Inability] unless the Father who sent Me [Unconditional] draws him [Irresistible]; and I will raise him up on the last day. [Preservation of the Saints]" John 6:44 [NASB]

You are free to reject the word of God at your own personal risk.
 
How is asking a question “beating a straw man”? That God spoke to Cain and Able at all is an act of Grace. That he established sacrifices for them to offer to him was God moving toward them first.

Doug
You are attacking what "Total Depravity" does not claim. Total Depravity is all about God reaching out to man before man is able to reach out to God. It establishes the Biblical truth that the Lost cannot save themselves. The LOST need the GOSPEL. They need a savior. They NEED help from God.

One may reject other parts of the Doctrines of Grace [TULIP], but to reject Total Depravity/Total Inability is to believe that Men have the power to obey the Law without needing to be "born from above". It is a cornerstone to men saving themselves rather than embracing complete dependence on God to save us. If Total Inability is false, then we didn't NEED Christ ... we should have just obeyed the Law!
 
adams curse was tending the ground in labor and the woman pain in labor. The curse was not a sin nature since they still communicated with God post fall. The same with Cain if he had a sin nature then why would God tell him sin creeps at the door and give him a choice. It flies in the face of a sin nature and TD. Common sense shows that to be true when reading through those first chapters in Genesis and the Moses left it out for a good reason , it’s not true.

1 John 3:4 " Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness."

Ezekiel 18:20, "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.”

Matthew 18:3, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 19:14, "But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”

If children are born sinners as TD and original sin teaches then Jesus teaches that to be His disciples we must be corrupt like the little children which is an oxymoron.

Death is the curse from the fall not guilt of an individuals sin. A baby cannot sin and can still die. We must not conflate the two

The teaching above by Jesus, Ezekiel and John confirms the OP is true and original sin is not. One becomes a sinner when they sin and become guilty of that sin not before. Babies are born innocent, not guilty. There is no DNA gene making one a sinner that is folklore.

hope this helps !!!
Actually, it offers no help at all. You completely avoided everything that I said about Total Inability and simply launched into a rehashed tired old criticism of something tangential to the point of the doctrine. Shall we now argue over the number of angels that can stand on the head of a pin and whether dogs go to heaven?

Here is my post ...
[TD] People are "no darn good" ... incapable of saving themselves, so God must make the first move. [Do sinful people choose God before God calls them? Do people initiate salvation?]
How does your response address anything in my post about Total Depravity? I said nothing about children, except they, like ALL HUMAN BEINGS, cannot save themselves ... God makes the FIRST move in salvation.
 
adams curse was tending the ground in labor and the woman pain in labor. The curse was not a sin nature since they still communicated with God post fall. The same with Cain if he had a sin nature then why would God tell him sin creeps at the door and give him a choice. It flies in the face of a sin nature and TD. Common sense shows that to be true when reading through those first chapters in Genesis and the Moses left it out for a good reason , it’s not true.

1 John 3:4 " Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness."

Ezekiel 18:20, "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.”

Matthew 18:3, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 19:14, "But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”

If children are born sinners as TD and original sin teaches then Jesus teaches that to be His disciples we must be corrupt like the little children which is an oxymoron.

Death is the curse from the fall not guilt of an individuals sin. A baby cannot sin and can still die. We must not conflate the two

The teaching above by Jesus, Ezekiel and John confirms the OP is true and original sin is not. One becomes a sinner when they sin and become guilty of that sin not before. Babies are born innocent, not guilty. There is no DNA gene making one a sinner that is folklore.

hope this helps !!!
How far are you prepared to take "becoming like little children" as a prerequisite for salvation?
Should we quit work, leave our wives and move back in with our parents ... like little children?
VERY LITTLE Children breastfeed and are spoon fed ... do we have to become THAT little?
 
You just don't understand Calvinism...:ROFLMAO:I mean GPS. But seriously folks calvinism is like being up a creek without a paddle no matter what the map says.
As content-less a post as was ever made. How about THIS MAP:

"No one can come to Me [Total Inability] unless the Father who sent Me [Unconditional Choosing] draws him [Irresistible Grace]; and I will raise him up on the last day. [Preservation of the Saints]" John 6:44 [NASB]

Ignore it at your own peril.
 
As content-less a post as was ever made. How about THIS MAP:

"No one can come to Me [Total Inability] unless the Father who sent Me [Unconditional Choosing] draws him [Irresistible Grace]; and I will raise him up on the last day. [Preservation of the Saints]" John 6:44 [NASB]

Ignore it at your own peril.
Those who already listen and learn from the Father ( the condition) are the same ones whom the Father draws to the Son.

Down does tulip 🌷

Next
 
Those who already listen and learn from the Father ( the condition) are the same ones whom the Father draws to the Son.

Down does tulip 🌷

Next
When you write your own Book and the Church accepts it as SCRIPTURE, I will give your OPINIONS the same weight as the words of the Apostle John. Until then, John 6 does not actually SAY what you claim, does it. However, it DOES say what I quoted (absent my parenthetical inserts) ... so No one CAN come to Jesus unless the Father draws them, can they? All that the Father draws to Jesus WILL be raised by Jesus, right? John DID say that didn't he? That IS the Word of God, isn't it?

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:44 [NASB]

Now your turn. Embrace the truth and share a TRUTH from the word of God with me. What it ACTUALLY says rather than a paraphrased assumed interpretation.
 
I know little of John Calvin or his writings. I heard the gospel from Catholic Charismatics that I suspected were off their meds when I first encountered them. The RCC Church and I quickly and amicably parted company after a few months as I read the Gospel of Luke during the Feast of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin and had a long discussion with the Priest about "your mother and brothers" and the source of all this information about Mary so I could read it for myself.

Then I spent about a decade at The Church of God of Anderson Indiana (part of the Wesleyan Holiness movement and descended from traveling preachers on the Great Plains in the 1800's). Then I attended an Evangelical Free Church, followed by a Pentecostal Church with Moravian roots.

Throughout all this "Arminian/Wesleyan" preaching and teaching, I read the Bible and came to 4 TRUTHS based on scripture and my own conversion:
  1. People are no darn good.
  2. Whatever the reason God chooses to save us, it is NOT because we deserve it ... the reason has everything to do with God and nothing to do with us and what we deserve.
  3. God does not try, God does! God does not ask, God commands.
  4. God finishes what God starts.
I will stick with the word of God over your empty advice that I abandon it and find some cult that you will approve of.

"No one can come to Me [Total Inability] unless the Father who sent Me [Unconditional] draws him [Irresistible]; and I will raise him up on the last day. [Preservation of the Saints]" John 6:44 [NASB]

You are free to reject the word of God at your own personal risk.
Thanks for taking the time to explain that to me.
 
Those who already listen and learn from the Father ( the condition) are the same ones whom the Father draws to the Son.

Down does tulip 🌷

Next
The [Total Inability] still stands ... as you said, they listened and learned FROM THE FATHER: God made the first move - like calling to a hiding Adam or touching Lydia's heart to hear Paul's message.

1689 Baptist Confession of Faith​

Chapter 5: Of Divine Providence​

God the good Creator of all things, in His infinite power and wisdom does uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures and things,1 from the greatest even to the least,2 by His most wise and holy providence, to the end for the which they were created, according unto His infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of His own will; to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, infinite goodness, and mercy.3
1 Heb. 1:3; Job 38:11; Isa. 46:10–11; Ps. 135:6
2 Matt. 10:29–31
3 Eph. 1; 11

Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly;4 so that there is not anything befalls any by chance, or without His providence;5 yet by the same providence He ordered them to fall out according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.6
4 Acts 2:23
5 Prov. 16:33
6 Gen. 8:22

God, in his ordinary providence makes use of means,7 yet is free to work without,8 above,9 and against them10 at His pleasure.
7 Acts 27:31,44; Isa. 55:10–118 Hosea 1:7
9 Rom. 4:19–21
10 Dan. 3:27

The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in His providence, that His determinate counsel extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sinful actions both of angels and men;11 and that not by a bare permission, which also He most wisely and powerfully binds, and otherwise orders and governs,12 in a manifold dispensation to His most holy ends;13 yet so, as the sinfulness of their acts proceeds only from the creatures, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.14
11 Rom. 11:32–34; 2 Sam. 24:1; 1 Chron. 21:1
12 2 Kings 19:28; Ps. 76:10
13 Gen. 1:20; Isa. 10:6–7,12
14 Ps. 1, Ps. 21; 1 John 2:16

[You need to hate what we actually believe as defined by scripture rather than your imagination.]
 
As content-less a post as was ever made. How about THIS MAP:

"No one can come to Me [Total Inability] unless the Father who sent Me [Unconditional Choosing] draws him [Irresistible Grace]; and I will raise him up on the last day. [Preservation of the Saints]" John 6:44 [NASB]

Ignore it at your own peril.
Ignore Calvinism at my own peril....now that is funny:ROFLMAO:

And I thought you didn't have a sense of humor.
 
You are attacking what "Total Depravity" does not claim. Total Depravity is all about God reaching out to man before man is able to reach out to God. It establishes the Biblical truth that the Lost cannot save themselves. The LOST need the GOSPEL. They need a savior. They NEED help from God.

Total depravity means we are totally affect by sin in every aspect of our lives. The fact of the matter, is that even if we were only slightly contaminated by sin we would still be imperfect in relation to God’s Holiness and the perfection in which we were created. We would still need a Savior! We would still not be able to save ourselves! We would still need help from God!

That’s the reason the gospel is the Gospel!
The gospel message is that God is willing to save us, despite our sin, and despite the fact that he doesn’t have to do so. That’s why it is Grace and not merit.

Calvinism says that we are so depraved that without being born again, we cannot understand or seek God. My position, like Wesley’s is that prevenient grace- God’s grace going ahead or before us- restrains the power of sin so that we do not become as bad as we could be, more quickly than we could be. This allows us to hear the truth of the Spirit’s voice when we hear it.

(In my opinion, this is why we have a conscious sense of right and wrong, good and bad.)

We are still under sin’s dominion and will eventually sin, but Grace mitigates sins power so that we might be redeemed. Circumstances of life certainly will mitigate the effects of God’s prevenient grace, those raised in a more godly environment will certainly be more susceptible to the gospel that those in more hostile environs. But God’s grace procures our capacity to respond to the gospel without having to be born again.


Doug
 
Ignore Calvinism at my own peril....now that is funny:ROFLMAO:

And I thought you didn't have a sense of humor.
Thank you, most people deny that the hated 'Calvinism' is really just the teaching of Jesus through the Apostles like John and Paul.
So, yes, ignore the words from the lips of the Son of God recorded by the Apostle John at your own risk:

No one can come to Jesus unless the father draws them, just like Jesus said.
Those whom the Father draws to Jesus WILL be raised, just like Jesus said.
That's "money in the bank" that we can count on: God said it and He didn't stutter. It was plain and clear.
 
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