The map of calvinism

[The Rogue Tomato]

Calvinism says that we are so depraved that without being born again, we cannot understand or seek God. My position, like Wesley’s is that prevenient grace- God’s grace going ahead or before us- restrains the power of sin so that we do not become as bad as we could be, more quickly than we could be. This allows us to hear the truth of the Spirit’s voice when we hear it.

Speaking only from personal experience, and not from scripture, I was totally unwilling to seek God. I believe God broke me to the point where I had nowhere else to turn. If one wants to call that "prevenient grace", then so be it. But it was God's doing that brought me to a point to seek Him as a last resort, not anything that originated in me. I never would have sought God of my own will.

 

[civic]

When you write your own Book and the Church accepts it as SCRIPTURE, I will give your OPINIONS the same weight as the words of the Apostle John. Until then, John 6 does not actually SAY what you claim, does it. However, it DOES say what I quoted (absent my parenthetical inserts) ... so No one CAN come to Jesus unless the Father draws them, can they? All that the Father draws to Jesus WILL be raised by Jesus, right? John DID say that didn't he? That IS the Word of God, isn't it?

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:44 [NASB]
Now your turn. Embrace the truth and share a TRUTH from the word of God with me. What it ACTUALLY says rather than a paraphrased assumed interpretation.

CONTEXT IS KING - listen to Jesus tell us who are the one who are drawn and come.



Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

 

[civic]

The [Total Inability] still stands ... as you said, they listened and learned FROM THE FATHER: God made the first move - like calling to a hiding Adam or touching Lydia's heart to hear Paul's message.

1689 Baptist Confession of Faith​

Chapter 5: Of Divine Providence​

God the good Creator of all things, in His infinite power and wisdom does uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures and things,1 from the greatest even to the least,2 by His most wise and holy providence, to the end for the which they were created, according unto His infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of His own will; to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, infinite goodness, and mercy.3
1 Heb. 1:3; Job 38:11; Isa. 46:10–11; Ps. 135:6
2 Matt. 10:29–31
3 Eph. 1; 11

Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly;4 so that there is not anything befalls any by chance, or without His providence;5 yet by the same providence He ordered them to fall out according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.6
4 Acts 2:23
5 Prov. 16:33
6 Gen. 8:22

God, in his ordinary providence makes use of means,7 yet is free to work without,8 above,9 and against them10 at His pleasure.
7 Acts 27:31,44; Isa. 55:10–118 Hosea 1:7
9 Rom. 4:19–21
10 Dan. 3:27

The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in His providence, that His determinate counsel extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sinful actions both of angels and men;11 and that not by a bare permission, which also He most wisely and powerfully binds, and otherwise orders and governs,12 in a manifold dispensation to His most holy ends;13 yet so, as the sinfulness of their acts proceeds only from the creatures, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.14
11 Rom. 11:32–34; 2 Sam. 24:1; 1 Chron. 21:1
12 2 Kings 19:28; Ps. 76:10
13 Gen. 1:20; Isa. 10:6–7,12
14 Ps. 1, Ps. 21; 1 John 2:16

[You need to hate what we actually believe as defined by scripture rather than your imagination.]

all presuppositionalism.

 

[atpollard]

Total depravity means we are totally affect by sin in every aspect of our lives. The fact of the matter, is that even if we were only slightly contaminated by sin we would still be imperfect in relation to God’s Holiness and the perfection in which we were created. We would still need a Savior! We would still not be able to save ourselves! We would still need help from God!

Total means all of the man ... our MIND, our BODY, and our SPIRIT. It does not mean "UTTERLY" (as in we are as bad as we can possibly be: sociopaths). Our THOUGHTS are not God's thoughts. Our FLESH does not entice us to holiness. Our INNER BEING does not desire submission, it wants control. (that was why Satan was successful against Adam and Eve ... he offered what we wanted: to be like God ... and that is why Cain refused to listen to God's warning: he didn't want to submit his will to God's will).

Who doesn't like the Frank Sinatra song "My Way" ... that appeals to our SPIRIT's desire to be in command (master of our destiny)?

 

[civic]

Total means all of the man ... our MIND, our BODY, and our SPIRIT. It does not mean "UTTERLY" (as in we are as bad as we can possibly be: sociopaths). Our THOUGHTS are not God's thoughts. Our FLESH does not entice us to holiness. Our INNER BEING does not desire submission, it wants control. (that was why Satan was successful against Adam and Eve ... he offered what we wanted: to be like God ... and that is why Cain refused to listen to God's warning: he didn't want to submit his will to God's will).

Who doesn't like the Frank Sinatra song "My Way" ... that appeals to our SPIRIT's desire to be in command (master of our destiny)?

and the bible never states or implies man is totally depraved- thats the augustinian/gnostic philosophy that was carried over by calvin.

 

[atpollard]

CONTEXT IS KING - listen to Jesus tell us who are the one who are drawn and come.



Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

What in that passage tells me that one iota of merit/effort/credit (choose a word that makes YOU happy) comes from the person drawn rather than just a description of HOW the father draws (making it still 100% of God)?

Don't get me wrong, I am not hating on Wesleyanism. I grew up in the faith (as an adult) under that preaching and teaching by people that LOVED me a LOT! I am just HYPER CAREFUL about what it says and what it does not say in the Bible. I have been burned by people reading THEIR DENOMINATION into the scripture (all sides of every topic). So I admit it clearly says what it clearly says and I admit when words can be honestly read more than one way [John 3:16 "world" could be "all without exception" or "all without distinction" ... both fit the context and both have other scripture to support it].

Jesus reaction to the GRUMBLERS [and later when he repeats it to the Disciples] really does seem like a more emphatic "GOD CHOSE YOU, vs you chose God" passage. I will listen, but I have looked HARD at this to TRY and reconcile it to Wesleyan teaching ... it was one of those irreconcilable passages that forced me to accept that my teachers were wrong and the bible said something else. My 4 TRUTHS.

 

[atpollard]

all presuppositionalism.

The BCF, yes.

The FATHER teaching them, no (you and Jesus both quoted it).

 

[civic]

The BCF, yes.

The FATHER teaching them, no (you and Jesus both quoted it).

agreed

 

[atpollard]

and the bible never states or implies man is totally depraved- thats the augustinian/gnostic philosophy that was carried over by calvin.

So for the record, is your MIND, your BODY or your SPIRIT not impacted whatsoever by the taint of sin?

MIND: Your thoughts match God's thoughts ... loving those that hate you always made perfect sense.
BODY: Your eyes have never tempted you to lust and food never tempts you to gluttony.
SPIRIT: You were never NOT saved because from your earliest memories you have been drawn to submit to God and do things His way.

 

[atpollard]

agreed

My only point in quoting the BCF is that we view GOD as the primary cause (God did it) and the BCF affirms that God uses secondary causes (teaching is HOW God draws) ... but it is still GOD that is making things happen. Proof of nothing, just an explanation of the BCF point of view.

 

[TibiasDad]

Total means all of the man ... our MIND, our BODY, and our SPIRIT.

I believe I said that…

It does not mean "UTTERLY" (as in we are as bad as we can possibly be: sociopaths).

I didn’t say that. What I did say was that without God’s intervention, under sin’s domination we would have become utter as bad as what we could possibly be. There would have been nothing to stop sin from causing us to destroy ourselves.

Our THOUGHTS are not God's thoughts. Our FLESH does not entice us to holiness. Our INNER BEING does not desire submission, it wants control.

That’s the sinful nature; me first.

(that was why Satan was successful against Adam and Eve ... he offered what we wanted: to be like God ... and that is why Cain refused to listen to God's warning: he didn't want to submit his will to God's will).

Adam and Eve did not have the sinful nature ruling them. He chose to believe the deception of Satan than believe what God had told him.

Who doesn't like the Frank Sinatra song "My Way" ... that appeals to our SPIRIT's desire to be in command (master of our destiny)?

And yet, in one sense, the gospel gives us a positive direction for our own well being; it becomes a decision of what we believe is in our best interest. Do we believe that we are heading toward eternal death and punishment or that God is being less than truthful? Or do we believe that he is being truthful and that our only hope for life is in his grace. Ultimately our decisions are always what is best for us.


Doug

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

And yet, in one sense, the gospel gives us a positive direction for our own well being; it becomes a decision of what we believe is in our best interest. Do we believe that we are heading toward eternal death and punishment or that God is being less than truthful? Or do we believe that he is being truthful and that our only hope for life is in his grace. Ultimately our decisions are always what is best for us.


Doug

Anyone with less than half a brain knows it's in their self-interest to go to heaven instead of hell. We all resist that truth because of our sinful nature.

 

[civic]

Anyone with less than half a brain knows it's in their self-interest to go to heaven instead of hell. We all resist that truth because of our sinful nature.

Not if they don’t believe in God or the afterlife

 

[atpollard]

Not if they don’t believe in God or the afterlife

I suspect that there are far more apathetic agnostics and deists than atheists. That is why “new age” spirituality appeals to so many. You can feel good as you continue to do what you want.

 

[TibiasDad]

Anyone with less than half a brain knows it's in their self-interest to go to heaven instead of hell. We all resist that truth because of our sinful nature.

My point is only that while the sinful nature is always a “me first” attitude, thinking about yourself is not always a sinful attitude. Thus, just thinking about yourself is not always and ungodly thing. The real choice is who do you believe; the God argument or some other argument?

Doug

 

[Presby02]

When were you dead in trespasses and sins? According to you when you were in the regenerated state and hadn't heard the gospel yet? Or were you ALIVE in the regenerated state?

Regenerated, believed. Instantaneous. Like a light switch.

 

[Presby02]

Those who already listen and learn from the Father ( the condition) are the same ones whom the Father draws to the Son.

Down does tulip

Next

Says the Bible nowhere. Hearing and learning are how they are drawn. Not why.

 

[Presby02]

Total depravity means we are totally affect by sin in every aspect of our lives. The fact of the matter, is that even if we were only slightly contaminated by sin we would still be imperfect in relation to God’s Holiness and the perfection in which we were created. We would still need a Savior! We would still not be able to save ourselves! We would still need help from God!

That’s the reason the gospel is the Gospel!
The gospel message is that God is willing to save us, despite our sin, and despite the fact that he doesn’t have to do so. That’s why it is Grace and not merit.

Calvinism says that we are so depraved that without being born again, we cannot understand or seek God. My position, like Wesley’s is that prevenient grace- God’s grace going ahead or before us- restrains the power of sin so that we do not become as bad as we could be, more quickly than we could be. This allows us to hear the truth of the Spirit’s voice when we hear it.

(In my opinion, this is why we have a conscious sense of right and wrong, good and bad.)

We are still under sin’s dominion and will eventually sin, but Grace mitigates sins power so that we might be redeemed. Circumstances of life certainly will mitigate the effects of God’s prevenient grace, those raised in a more godly environment will certainly be more susceptible to the gospel that those in more hostile environs. But God’s grace procures our capacity to respond to the gospel without having to be born again.


Doug

"No man seeks after God" Romans 3

 

[civic]

Says the Bible nowhere. Hearing and learning are how they are drawn. Not why.

Wrong again the condition for being drawn to the Son is listening and learning from the Father. The Pharisees who didn’t listen/ hear and learn from the Father were not drawn to the Son. Those who listen and learn are the same ones who Jesus raised up on the last day, the same ones the Father draws to the Son.

John 6- Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

 

[Rockson]

Regenerated, believed. Instantaneous. Like a light switch.

Hmmm....nice try but it seems to me you only say this when you've been backed up into a corner and there's no way your belief can reconcile itself with the greater picture of scripture.

And YOU really don't believe it's instantaneous for why do you put regeneration FIRST? Are you willing to say then believe FIRST and regeneration second and let's not forget something you're leaving out.....for with the heart man believes onto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made UNTO----->Salvation. (or confession is made UNTO----> LIFE? That's a sequence and not an instantaneous event.