The map of calvinism
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Rory Wilson
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Unless you're hunkered down in Foxhole with incoming mortar rounds. Then you desire catches up with your ability real fast. Just saying.
civic
Well-known member
yes
TibiasDad
Well-known member
On His own apart from the grace of God? NOPE
Is Able the exception to the rule? No man means some men????
That's great. Most of us have never been in a foxhole.
Desire does not imply or assume ability.
civic
Well-known member
total depravity,inability, original sin disproven from the context.
how can an infant understand, turn away, practice deceit, curse, shed blood, fear God or know the way of peace ????
just more proof texting ignoring the " CONTEXT : once again.
Romans 3- the Context
There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes
conclusion : I rest my case by exposing the eisegesis and mine quoting scriptures in isolation ripped from their intended context and meaning, quote mining, cherry picking scripture as the context always disproves calvinism.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
exposing the map regarding children in Scripture.
How refreshing then was the Biblical, Hebrew culture where all children were considered to be gifts from the Lord. Rachel spoke as the mother of her people when she cried, "Give me children, or I shall die!" (Genesis 30:1). Hannah prayed in the temple for a child. When God answered, she named him Samuel ("God has heard"). She later gave Samuel to the Lord's service (1 Samuel 1:20, 28). Hebrew culture elevated the family and children!
We can surmise that quite a number of cheerful families stood in line chatting, with babes in arms and children scurrying around. Then it stopped. Outside the house the disciples were sending them away with a rebuke!
Why were they doing this? They were protecting Jesus. They knew Jesus was under pressure. Wherever he went, he found conflict–one time with demons, another time the religious establishment, etc. And if that was not enough, there were the crashing crowds. This matter of blessing children was simply one more drain. Besides, these were just children. They were of little importance. They could not enter debate or contribute to the cause, even if they did understand about Jesus. So the disciples stopped the flow.
Verse 14 indicates that Jesus saw what was happening, and "he was indignant." The Greek word translated "indignant" occurs only here in the New Testament and is a combination of two words: "much" and "to grieve." He was much grieved!
First, Jesus loves children. Jesus, after all, had been a child himself. He was a real baby, child, teenager, and man. We see Christ's love for children as he celebrates the delight of a mother on giving birth (John 16:21), the gentle love of a father who cuddles his children (Luke 11:7), and parental love that listens to a child's every request (Matthew 7:9; Luke 11:11).
Many of his miracles involved children: the nobleman's little son (John 4:46-54), the demonized son of the man at the Mount of Transfiguration (Mark 9:14-29), Jairus' daughter to whom Christ tenderly said, "Talitha cumi," which means, "Little girl, I say to you, rise" (Mark 5:41). Jesus truly, as man and God, love children!
So we learn from Jesus' indignation, first, that Jesus loves children, and, secondly, that Jesus affirms and respects the personhood and spirituality of children.In saying, "for to such belongs the kingdom of God," he affirms their full spirituality. They are the hearts he takes to himself! Christ affirms and proclaims the spiritual capacity of children.
How sobering, then, are Jesus' words, "do not hinder them." The Talmud says, "A child tells in the street what its father and mother say at home." What are children learning in our homes and in our churches?
For starters, coming as a "child" does not infer innocence. Any two-year-old dispels such a notion! Neither does "like a child" suggest the wondrous subjective states we often find in children such as trustfulness, receptivity, simplicity, or wonder, beautiful as these are.
What Jesus has in mind here is an objective state that every child who has ever lived, regardless of race, culture, or background, has experienced—helpless dependence.
Every single child in the world is absolutely, completely, totally, objectively, subjectively, existentially helpless! And so it is with every child who is born into the kingdom of God. Children of the kingdom enter it helpless, ones for whom everything must be done.
The realization that one is as helpless as a child naturally fosters humility. Jesus gave reference to this connection when, in a similar but separate statement, he said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 18:3-4).
Do you desire to be held in Christ's arms, to hear him pronounce blessings over you? Eternity will reveal that is all we ever wanted, and our Spirit-given response is, "Dearest Father"–"Abba! Father!" (cf. Romans 8:15; Galatians 4:6). Kent Hughes
Conclusion: Children are blessings not dirty rotten little sinful babies. Why didn't Jesus say children were sinners but instead insisted adults become like children ?
hope this helps
How refreshing then was the Biblical, Hebrew culture where all children were considered to be gifts from the Lord. Rachel spoke as the mother of her people when she cried, "Give me children, or I shall die!" (Genesis 30:1). Hannah prayed in the temple for a child. When God answered, she named him Samuel ("God has heard"). She later gave Samuel to the Lord's service (1 Samuel 1:20, 28). Hebrew culture elevated the family and children!
Mark 10 shows a further elevation of children by our Lord. The account opens in verse 13 with Mark telling us that "they were bringing children to [Jesus] that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them." As best we can gather, fathers, mothers, and perhaps older children, were bringing young children, many of whom were babies (for that is how Luke describes them in his parallel account, 18:15), to Jesus for his blessing. This was in keeping with a classic Jewish custom that dated all the way back to the time when the patriarch Israel laid his hands upon the heads of Ephraim and Manasseh and blessed them (Genesis 48:14). It was all very proper, traditional, and wonderful. Proud parents held out their precious children to Jesus, who took them in his arms where they snuggled close. He placed his hand on their warm little heads, and lifting his eyes to Heaven, pronounced a blessing.
We can surmise that quite a number of cheerful families stood in line chatting, with babes in arms and children scurrying around. Then it stopped. Outside the house the disciples were sending them away with a rebuke!
Why were they doing this? They were protecting Jesus. They knew Jesus was under pressure. Wherever he went, he found conflict–one time with demons, another time the religious establishment, etc. And if that was not enough, there were the crashing crowds. This matter of blessing children was simply one more drain. Besides, these were just children. They were of little importance. They could not enter debate or contribute to the cause, even if they did understand about Jesus. So the disciples stopped the flow.
Verse 14 indicates that Jesus saw what was happening, and "he was indignant." The Greek word translated "indignant" occurs only here in the New Testament and is a combination of two words: "much" and "to grieve." He was much grieved!
Our Lord's Elevation of Children
Jesus was angry, and his words have a clipped, staccato ring to them: "[He] said to them, 'Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God'" (v. 14). What should we draw from these passionate words?First, Jesus loves children. Jesus, after all, had been a child himself. He was a real baby, child, teenager, and man. We see Christ's love for children as he celebrates the delight of a mother on giving birth (John 16:21), the gentle love of a father who cuddles his children (Luke 11:7), and parental love that listens to a child's every request (Matthew 7:9; Luke 11:11).
Many of his miracles involved children: the nobleman's little son (John 4:46-54), the demonized son of the man at the Mount of Transfiguration (Mark 9:14-29), Jairus' daughter to whom Christ tenderly said, "Talitha cumi," which means, "Little girl, I say to you, rise" (Mark 5:41). Jesus truly, as man and God, love children!
So we learn from Jesus' indignation, first, that Jesus loves children, and, secondly, that Jesus affirms and respects the personhood and spirituality of children.In saying, "for to such belongs the kingdom of God," he affirms their full spirituality. They are the hearts he takes to himself! Christ affirms and proclaims the spiritual capacity of children.
How sobering, then, are Jesus' words, "do not hinder them." The Talmud says, "A child tells in the street what its father and mother say at home." What are children learning in our homes and in our churches?
Our Lord's Elevation of Children's Faith
Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." The word translated "not" is very strong. New Testament scholar William Lane comments: "The solemn pronouncement is directed at the disciples, but has pertinence for all men confronted by the gospel because it speaks of the condition for entrance into the Kingdom of God." No one will get into the Kingdom of God unless he or she receives God's salvation like a child—no one! How are we to understand and apply this?For starters, coming as a "child" does not infer innocence. Any two-year-old dispels such a notion! Neither does "like a child" suggest the wondrous subjective states we often find in children such as trustfulness, receptivity, simplicity, or wonder, beautiful as these are.
What Jesus has in mind here is an objective state that every child who has ever lived, regardless of race, culture, or background, has experienced—helpless dependence.
Every single child in the world is absolutely, completely, totally, objectively, subjectively, existentially helpless! And so it is with every child who is born into the kingdom of God. Children of the kingdom enter it helpless, ones for whom everything must be done.
The realization that one is as helpless as a child naturally fosters humility. Jesus gave reference to this connection when, in a similar but separate statement, he said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 18:3-4).
Do you desire to be held in Christ's arms, to hear him pronounce blessings over you? Eternity will reveal that is all we ever wanted, and our Spirit-given response is, "Dearest Father"–"Abba! Father!" (cf. Romans 8:15; Galatians 4:6). Kent Hughes
Conclusion: Children are blessings not dirty rotten little sinful babies. Why didn't Jesus say children were sinners but instead insisted adults become like children ?
hope this helps
civic
Well-known member
The Old Testament is full of passages about the importance of raising children to love and worship God (Deuteronomy 6:7, Proverbs 22:6). Parents are reminded that children are a heritage from the Lord (Psalm 127:3-5). And children are instructed to obey the instruction of their parents (Exodus 20:12).
It’s in the Gospels that we really discover God’s soft spot for children. He’s gentle and kind with them, and passionate about protecting them from harm.
Here are three passages where Jesus demonstrated God’s heart for children:
He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me” (Matthew 18:1-5, New International Version).
Jesus often used things in His environment to teach spiritual truth. In this case, there were children in the crowd and Jesus used them to make an important point.
“Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
It seems like a simple question. From the disciple’s religious context, they likely would have answered, “One who keeps the law.” No one answers right away-probably because they’re all waiting for Peter to give the wrong answer. Meanwhile, Jesus calls a child over and tells them:
“Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”
There’s a lot of conjecture about what Jesus means. Are we supposed to become innocent like children? Do we need childlike trust? Luckily, we don’t have to guess what Jesus meant. He tells us.
Children didn’t have a lot of rights in the first century. Kids were seen and not heard. We see this in Luke 18 when parents were bringing their infants to be blessed by Jesus, and the disciples try and chase them away. In their opinion, the Lord had more important things to do.
Jesus uses this opportunity to reiterate one of His most common points about godly leadership. Like children, kingdom-minded leaders shouldn’t be jockeying for position, looking to have power over others, or worrying about how people perceive them. They should serve God by serving others.
He then makes a point that He’ll come back to in a parable about sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46). By welcoming and serving those that society doesn’t value, we welcome and serve God. In this case, we serve God by serving children.
When Jesus had something important to say, He often used hyperbole. This was His way of communicating the sheer magnitude of what He was trying to communicate. You see this in the Sermon on the Mount when Jesus tells the crowd, “And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away” (Matthew 5:30, NIV).
When it comes to temptation, we’re all responsible for our own behavior. But here Jesus wants His listeners to understand the dangers of being the vehicle through which temptation comes. If your behavior leads innocent children astray, it’s better to be tossed into the depth of the sea than to face the judgment of Jesus.
During Jesus ministry, He raised three people from the dead. One was Lazarus (John 11), who Jesus loved. Another was a young man in the town of Nain. Jesus got caught in a funeral procession and was moved by a mother’s grieving so he raised her son (Luke 7).
In the third case, a synagogue leader named Jairus comes to Jesus because his daughter is sick and near death (Luke 8:41). He begs Jesus to come and do something, but by the time our Lord gets there, the child has died.
And, in a time when the child mortality rate was likely very high, Jesus was moved enough by this man’s faith-and this girl’s untimely death-to intervene. He demonstrates His compassion and love for children by raising Jairus’s daughter from the dead.jesusfilm.org
conclusion: If children are sinners/wicked why would Jesus demand/command adul stinners become like little children who are sinners ? That makes no sense.
hope this helps !!!
It’s in the Gospels that we really discover God’s soft spot for children. He’s gentle and kind with them, and passionate about protecting them from harm.
Here are three passages where Jesus demonstrated God’s heart for children:
1. Greatest in the kingdom of heaven
At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me” (Matthew 18:1-5, New International Version).
Jesus often used things in His environment to teach spiritual truth. In this case, there were children in the crowd and Jesus used them to make an important point.
“Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
It seems like a simple question. From the disciple’s religious context, they likely would have answered, “One who keeps the law.” No one answers right away-probably because they’re all waiting for Peter to give the wrong answer. Meanwhile, Jesus calls a child over and tells them:
“Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”
There’s a lot of conjecture about what Jesus means. Are we supposed to become innocent like children? Do we need childlike trust? Luckily, we don’t have to guess what Jesus meant. He tells us.
Children didn’t have a lot of rights in the first century. Kids were seen and not heard. We see this in Luke 18 when parents were bringing their infants to be blessed by Jesus, and the disciples try and chase them away. In their opinion, the Lord had more important things to do.
Jesus uses this opportunity to reiterate one of His most common points about godly leadership. Like children, kingdom-minded leaders shouldn’t be jockeying for position, looking to have power over others, or worrying about how people perceive them. They should serve God by serving others.
He then makes a point that He’ll come back to in a parable about sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46). By welcoming and serving those that society doesn’t value, we welcome and serve God. In this case, we serve God by serving children.
2. Christ’s stern warning about protecting children
“If anyone causes one of these little ones-those who believe in me-to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!” (Matthew 18:6-7, NIV)When Jesus had something important to say, He often used hyperbole. This was His way of communicating the sheer magnitude of what He was trying to communicate. You see this in the Sermon on the Mount when Jesus tells the crowd, “And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away” (Matthew 5:30, NIV).
When it comes to temptation, we’re all responsible for our own behavior. But here Jesus wants His listeners to understand the dangers of being the vehicle through which temptation comes. If your behavior leads innocent children astray, it’s better to be tossed into the depth of the sea than to face the judgment of Jesus.
3. Jesus raises a child from the dead
When Jesus entered the synagogue leaders house and saw the noisy crowd and people playing pipes, he said, “Go away. The girl is not dead but asleep.” But they laughed at him. After the crowd had been put outside, he went in and took the girl by the hand, and she got up. News of this spread through all that region (Matthew 9:22-26, NIV).During Jesus ministry, He raised three people from the dead. One was Lazarus (John 11), who Jesus loved. Another was a young man in the town of Nain. Jesus got caught in a funeral procession and was moved by a mother’s grieving so he raised her son (Luke 7).
In the third case, a synagogue leader named Jairus comes to Jesus because his daughter is sick and near death (Luke 8:41). He begs Jesus to come and do something, but by the time our Lord gets there, the child has died.
And, in a time when the child mortality rate was likely very high, Jesus was moved enough by this man’s faith-and this girl’s untimely death-to intervene. He demonstrates His compassion and love for children by raising Jairus’s daughter from the dead.jesusfilm.org
conclusion: If children are sinners/wicked why would Jesus demand/command adul stinners become like little children who are sinners ? That makes no sense.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
And there is more to come , so much for total depravity being doomed from the womb.
Matthew 18:2-5
And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven
Matthew 18:10
“See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 18:14
So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.
Matthew 19:13-14
Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.
Mark 9:36-37
Taking a child, He set him before them, and taking him in His arms, He said to them, “Whoever receivesone child like this in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me does not receive Me, but Him who sent Me.”
Mark 10:13-16
And they were bringing children to Him so that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, “Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs tosuch as these. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.
Luke 9:47-48
But Jesus, knowing what they were thinking in their heart, took a child and stood him by His side, and said to them, “Whoever receives this child in My name receives Me, and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me; for the one who is least among all of you, this is the one who is great.”
Luke 18:15-17
And they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He would touch them, but when the disciples saw it, they began rebuking them. But Jesus called for them, saying, “Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”
hope this helps !!!
Matthew 18:2-5
And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven
Matthew 18:10
“See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 18:14
So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.
Matthew 19:13-14
Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.
Mark 9:36-37
Taking a child, He set him before them, and taking him in His arms, He said to them, “Whoever receivesone child like this in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me does not receive Me, but Him who sent Me.”
Mark 10:13-16
And they were bringing children to Him so that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, “Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs tosuch as these. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.
Luke 9:47-48
But Jesus, knowing what they were thinking in their heart, took a child and stood him by His side, and said to them, “Whoever receives this child in My name receives Me, and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me; for the one who is least among all of you, this is the one who is great.”
Luke 18:15-17
And they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He would touch them, but when the disciples saw it, they began rebuking them. But Jesus called for them, saying, “Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”
hope this helps !!!
Says all the Pelagians.total depravity,inability, original sin disproven from the context.
how can an infant understand, turn away, practice deceit, curse, shed blood, fear God or know the way of peace ????
just more proof texting ignoring the " CONTEXT : once again.
Romans 3- the Context
There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes
conclusion : I rest my case by exposing the eisegesis and mine quoting scriptures in isolation ripped from their intended context and meaning, quote mining, cherry picking scripture as the context always disproves calvinism.
hope this helps !!!
Civic is espousing no man actually means some men.
And simply posting the text is not explaining the context. LOL Are you sure it's not 4.0 years instead of 40?
TibiasDad
Well-known member
The question is not whether the Grace of God is a necessary prerequisite, that is obvious; the question is whether “regeneration” has happened yet, or if Grace has merely mitigated the effects of sin in man to allow for faith to be expressed.
Abel’s gift of sacrifice pleased God because he obeyed God’s instructions (which are not recorded but are logically implicit). Cain had the same instructions, for “ the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door…” (Gen 4:6-7a)
Able “mastered” sins crouching at this point; he followed God’s implicit instructions about bringing “fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock”, whereas Cain brought merely “some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord”, an imperfect offering of second best fruits.
Doug
Again, done by the grace of God, according to His plan.
So but by the grace of God, "no man seeks after God".
Rockson
Well-known member
Calvinism does actually hinder people from coming to God for it leaves the impression God probably doesn't love them and won't receive them. They're left with the feeling why bother.
civic
Well-known member
yes thats one of the issues with sharing the gospel since God only loves the elect and only died for them, not everyone. So the honest calvinist cannot tell any sinner Jesus really loves them as an individual and died for their sins.
thats just another contradiction within their systematic theology.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Not true… seeking doesn’t require grace, acceptance of the effort to seek does. An adulterous husband can seek to come back home to his wife, but she is under no obligation to let him. The will of the husband is not the issue, the will of the offended party, the will of the wife is in complete control and has the only effectual power to reconcile the relationship.
That the woman expresses her willingness to be sought after is gracious, but the man’s capacity to want to come back requires no grace at all.
This is the reason that “works” can never save; God cannot be obligated by anyone to save. It is only his prerogative to forgive, not ours to demand!
Doug
Rockson
Well-known member
But all men can seek God when it comes to their ability. Let's read Acts 17: 26,27
From one man He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands.27God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. Acts 17: 26,27
It's states THEY could seek him .....not just some.....and it says he's not far from each one of us.....if one is going to say that's not a universal statement applying to all they've left the proper use of language.
civic
Well-known member
Amen brother preach it
civic
Well-known member
Amen I was thinking about that passage last night. PTL !!!
Rockson
Well-known member
Yeah and I think we can rightly tell them they are hindering God and exhort them to stop it. I feel what a tragedy it'd be for some to hear him say at the time of accounting this is what you did. We won't even talk if this is a heaven or hell issue but just to go through eternity even if saved by having heard you were a hinderance to his message.....I trust and hope many will depart from Calvinistic thinking today.
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