The map of calvinism

[atpollard]

Jesus later says He will draw everyone, all men to Himself after He is Resurrected- lifted up- John 12:32

All men without exception or some of every people group (not just Jews like the OT)?

If all without exception, how was the grandfather of King Montezuma (who died before the Gospel arrived in the America's) drawn to Jesus when he was offering hearts of living victims to his winged snake god?

 

[Rockson]

Am I the only one or my answer don't quite fit another gotcha attempt?

Well Pres, I'd encourage at least readers to take note how you run away from addressing the things asked you that is,

Are you willing to say then believe FIRST and regeneration second and let's not forget something you're leaving out.....for with the heart man believes onto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made UNTO----->Salvation. (or confession is made UNTO----> LIFE? That's a sequence and not an instantaneous event.

Now he's going to tell me what I really believe.

Most certainly and absolutely I will as what you belive can be determined from things you've said prior and advocated. When your way of thinking get's in trouble you should not be allowed an escape out the back door and for a moment make it seem that you don't believe the other when in fact you do.

 

[civic]

John 6:43b-45 "Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."

Just for the record, Jesus presents simple statements of fact. Unless someone can show from the Greek Grammar that a "cause-effect" relationship is implied in the original language, the English carries NEITHER an "THIS IS WHY" nor a "THIS IS HOW" relationship between these verses ... just a "BOTH ARE TRUE" statement of fact. One will need to look elsewhere to prove their pet eisegesis of the relationship between these verses [or actually take the effort to PROVE your claims from the original text.]

It does not SAY "condition".
It does not say "means".
If we are to be "good workmen", then we must handle the Word with precision and care.
It says what it says. It is not our place to add to that.

So what EXACTLY does it say?

• No one can come to [Jesus] unless the Father draws them.
• [Jesus] will raise [those drawn] up at the last day.
• [Those drawn] will all be taught by God [the Father].
• Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to [Jesus].

Every one of those statements of fact MUST BE TRUE. Therefore, words like "everyone" are critical.

• No person can "hear and learn" and not come to Jesus [aka. drawn] or some of the statements are false.
• No person can come to Jesus and not be raised.
• No person can come to Jesus without being "taught by God" ... it is not clear if God teaches before or after in that verse (or both), but it is clear that God teaches all that are drawn to the Son.
• Everyone (critical word) who has heard (past tense) the Father and learned (past tense) from Him comes to Jesus ... (Hearing and Learning mean you must come! That is the definition of IRRESISTIBLE, isn't it?)
  • That may imply "HOW", but it does not state specifically that it is 100% God and there was no "free will choice", so "WHY" remains a possibility. The fly in the ointment for WHY is the need to be true for EVERYONE. Each side must look elsewhere in Scripture for clarification while keeping all of Jesus statements TRUE.

See the Greek scholar Meyer below on the condition.

πᾶς ὁ ἀκούων, κ.τ.λ.] The spurious οὖν rightly indicates the connection (against Olshausen); for it follows from that promise, that every one who hears and is taught of the Father comes to the Son, and no others; because, were it not so, the community of believers would not be unmixedly the διδακτοὶ θεοῦ. Ἀκούειν παρὰ τοῦ πατρός is the spiritual perception of divine instruction; the subject-matter of which, as the whole context clearly shows, is the Son and His work. The communication of this revelation is, however, continuous (hence ἀκούων), and the “having learned” is its actual result, by the attainment of which through personal exertion the ἔρχεται πρός με is conditioned. One hears and has learned of the Father; in no other way is one in the condition which internally necessitates a believing union with the Son. Comp. Matthew 11:25 ff.

 

[Presby02]

Well Pres, I'd encourage at least readers to take note how you run away from addressing the things asked you that is,

Are you willing to say then believe FIRST and regeneration second and let's not forget something you're leaving out.....for with the heart man believes onto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made UNTO----->Salvation. (or confession is made UNTO----> LIFE? That's a sequence and not an instantaneous event.


Most certainly and absolutely I will as what you belive can be determined from things you've said prior and advocated. When your way of thinking get's in trouble you should not be allowed an escape out the back door and for a moment make it seem that you don't believe the other when in fact you do.

And I said yes. Will capital letters help? YES Regeration precedes faith.

Heart of stone or a heart of flesh?


You last paragraph worthless rhetoric which I could easily say to you. Except I would be right.

 

[atpollard]

See the Greek scholar Meyer below on the condition.

πᾶς ὁ ἀκούων, κ.τ.λ.] The spurious οὖν rightly indicates the connection (against Olshausen); for it follows from that promise, that every one who hears and is taught of the Father comes to the Son, and no others; because, were it not so, the community of believers would not be unmixedly the διδακτοὶ θεοῦ. Ἀκούειν παρὰ τοῦ πατρός is the spiritual perception of divine instruction; the subject-matter of which, as the whole context clearly shows, is the Son and His work. The communication of this revelation is, however, continuous (hence ἀκούων), and the “having learned” is its actual result, by the attainment of which through personal exertion the ἔρχεται πρός με is conditioned. One hears and has learned of the Father; in no other way is one in the condition which internally necessitates a believing union with the Son. Comp. Matthew 11:25 ff.

Could YOU point out where the underlined part is located in the Scripture we are examining? I sense a denominational filtering of the word as clear as any rabid Calvinist that insists that WORLD cannot possibly mean "all men".

I agree with his conclusion in the first part, there does appear to be a clearly implied link between [hear and learn] and [drawn to Jesus] - uniting the verses. Within the context, that is why Jesus chose to quote them and John chose to record it.

I do not see the "personal exertion" in any English translation or any of the core Greek words. He has not clearly demonstrated that "personal exertion" to be exegetical fact. He claims, probably correctly, that "heard and learned" is a precondition to "comes to Jesus" in the sentence: "Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me." - but the question remains to be PROVEN what is the source of hearing and learning (our mind or the Holy Spirit). He merely states that it is a "personal exertion" with no indication how he reached that CRITICAL conclusion.

How do we reconcile that with the fact that EVERYONE that hears and learns MUST reach that personal free will choice to be drawn to Jesus and raised on the last day? What sort of free will has only one possible choice?

The first one to plead his cause seems right, Until his neighbor comes and examines him. - Proverbs 18:17 [NKJV]

 

[civic]

Well Pres, I'd encourage at least readers to take note how you run away from addressing the things asked you that is,

Are you willing to say then believe FIRST and regeneration second and let's not forget something you're leaving out.....for with the heart man believes onto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made UNTO----->Salvation. (or confession is made UNTO----> LIFE? That's a sequence and not an instantaneous event.


Most certainly and absolutely I will as what you belive can be determined from things you've said prior and advocated. When your way of thinking get's in trouble you should not be allowed an escape out the back door and for a moment make it seem that you don't believe the other when in fact you do.

if regeneration comes before faith then its no faith at all- it was never their faith and trust to begin with much like a forced/coerced predetermined and arranged marriage. There is no faith, love, relationship is such things- its all a facade.

 

[atpollard]

if regeneration comes before faith then its no faith at all- it was never their faith and trust to begin with much like a forced/coerced predetermined and arranged marriage. There is no faith, love, relationship is such things- its all a facade.

Careful, it is an 'ordo salutis' hair-splitting between 'prevenient grace' of Wesleyanism and 'regenerating grace' of Calvinism. Wesley says the unsaved get it and reject it, Calvinists say that the elect get it and accept it.

In Acts, when was Lydia saved?

• When God prepared her heart?
• When she heard and believed Paul's Gospel message?
• When she repented and was baptized with her whole household?

Is that even a question for us to answer?
God clearly had his EYE and HAND on Lydia long before Paul arrived.

Looking back at MY conversion, I place the EBENEEZER (stone of remembrance) at the moment when God told me that from that moment forward, I belonged to Him. Looking backwards from that moment, I can see the hand of God preserving me from a lot of things where I probably deserved death. Looking forward from that moment, there was a LOT that God needed to change before I was someone that the Deacons would have allowed into YOUR church. So when was I "saved" ... what is my 'ordo salutis'?

When I was an infant, my Catholic and Methodist Grandparents were fighting over infant Baptism. The RCC REQUIRED an infant to be baptized or risk going to hell. My Protestant Grandparents were adamant that thier grandson would not be raised Catholic. My ATHEIST father just wanted peace and quiet in the family. So a compromise was reached and I was infant baptized in a Lutheran Church by an atheist father to appease grandparents that attended church twice a year (Easter and Christmas). Did God use secular Christians and an atheist to place his mark on me as an infant ... staking a claim that He would come and redeem what was His?

 

[Presby02]

if regeneration comes before faith then its no faith at all- it was never their faith and trust to begin with much like a forced/coerced predetermined and arranged marriage. There is no faith, love, relationship is such things- its all a facade.

Nope. God does not need use force or coercion. Like like me accusing your god of blackmail. Believe in me or burn.

Empty rhetoric which you and yours must resort to.

 

[TibiasDad]

"No man seeks after God" Romans 3

Rom 3:9What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.

Paul’s purpose in quoting these passages are clearly stated, namely, that all humanity is guilty before and estranged from God, including the Jews! Nobody is born with the inclination toward God/righteousness.

It is a wholistic and general declaration of the sinfulness of all mankind. One must be careful not to “go beyond what is written” and read into a passage more than what the author was intending to say to his hearers.


Doug

 

[Presby02]

Rom 3:9What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.

Paul’s purpose in quoting these passages are clearly stated, namely, that all humanity is guilty before and estranged from God, including the Jews! Nobody is born with the inclination toward God/righteousness.

It is a wholistic and general declaration of the sinfulness of all mankind. One must be careful not to “go beyond what is written” and read into a passage more than what the author was intending to say to his hearers.


Doug

Agreed, and no one seeks God. So how does one come to seek God if no one does?

 

[civic]

Agreed, and no one seeks God. So how does one come to seek God if no one does?

Jesus says seek and you will find . It’s as simple as that.

 

[Presby02]

Jesus says seek and you will find . It’s as simple as that.

Sure. Paul says no one does. Now what?

 

[TibiasDad]

Agreed, and no one seeks God. So how does one come to seek God if no one does?

Paul is not saying that there is absolutely no single person who is seeking God. For God always has a remnant. There have always been people who have sought after God, ie, Able. The call to “seek me while I may be found” (Isa 55:6) indicates the possibility to be obedient to this command.
Able certainly was seeking him, and brought an acceptable sacrifice. Doesn’t sound like Total Inability to me.

Also, it says, that as a generalized fact, that no man seeks after God, not that no man is capable of seeking after God. In other words, God has made himself seekable, whether we do so or not is our burden.


Doug

 

[atpollard]

For God always has a remnant. There have always been people who have sought after God, ie, Able

Able died early in the story

Just a point of clarification, but the "remnant" did not choose to seek after God on their own ... 1Ki 19:18 [NKJV] "Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him." ... Rom 11:4 [NKJV] But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."

• God had a thumb on that scale; HE RESERVED FOR HIMSELF.
• (that's all we say God does with sinners that are drawn to Christ ... among the "no one [who] seeks", God "reserves [draws] for Himself [to the Son] a remnant [elect, bride]. )

 

[Rockson]

Able died early in the story

Just a point of clarification, but the "remnant" did not choose to seek after God on their own ... 1Ki 19:18 [NKJV] "Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him." ... Rom 11:4 [NKJV] But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."

• God had a thumb on that scale; HE RESERVED FOR HIMSELF.
• (that's all we say God does with sinners that are drawn to Christ ... among the "no one [who] seeks", God "reserves [draws] for Himself [to the Son] a remnant [elect, bride]. )

Well if that's the basis for your reasoning then I think we can help you. Just understand there was a condition attached to his reserving them and that is that THEY DID NOT bow their knees to Baal. And just know this also that those who repent and receive God's righteousness by FAITH in Christ he likewise has not reserved them to judgment.

 

[civic]

Paul is not saying that there is absolutely no single person who is seeking God. For God always has a remnant. There have always been people who have sought after God, ie, Able. The call to “seek me while I may be found” (Isa 55:6) indicates the possibility to be obedient to this command.
Able certainly was seeking him, and brought an acceptable sacrifice. Doesn’t sound like Total Inability to me.

Also, it says, that as a generalized fact, that no man seeks after God, not that no man is capable of seeking after God. In other words, God has made himself seekable, whether we do so or not is our burden.


Doug

Amen

 

[civic]

Well if that's the basis for your reasoning then I think we can help you. Just understand there was a condition attached to his reserving them and that is that THEY DID NOT bow their knees to Baal. And just know this also that those who repent and receive God's righteousness by FAITH in Christ he likewise has not reserved them to judgment.

Spot on brother

 

[Aeliana]

Jesus says seek and you will find . It’s as simple as that.

Jesus said to “seek first his kingdom and his righteousness” Matthew 6:33

Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. John 21:15

That's my King

 

[atpollard]

Well if that's the basis for your reasoning then I think we can help you. Just understand there was a condition attached to his reserving them and that is that THEY DID NOT bow their knees to Baal. And just know this also that those who repent and receive God's righteousness by FAITH in Christ he likewise has not reserved them to judgment.

You speak about what they did as a "condition" ... am I correct to call that a prerequisite ... yet the scripture speaks all about what God has done with no indication that they made and decision worthy of merit. "I have reserved for Myself" is not about the faithful decisions of MEN, it is about the SOVEREIGN choice of God!

 

[Presby02]

Paul is not saying that there is absolutely no single person who is seeking God. For God always has a remnant. There have always been people who have sought after God, ie, Able. The call to “seek me while I may be found” (Isa 55:6) indicates the possibility to be obedient to this command.
Able certainly was seeking him, and brought an acceptable sacrifice. Doesn’t sound like Total Inability to me.

Also, it says, that as a generalized fact, that no man seeks after God, not that no man is capable of seeking after God. In other words, God has made himself seekable, whether we do so or not is our burden.


Doug

So no man means some men?

Ability and desire are two different things. We may have the ability but lack the desire to seek God.