The Issue of Limited Atonement

[TomL]

Man had a solidarity, union in Adam when he sinned, so much so all men in him sinned, that's how God reckons it.

As far as Titus 2:11 goes, its all the elect universally, not just jews. Its paramount to the same argument you having with @jeremiah1five who probably believes Titus 2:11 refers to all hebrew jews, but it doesnt, it applies to all people ethnicity wise save they elect.

Romans 5:12 still does not state all received the sin of Adam

Romans 5:12 (LEB) — 12 Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death spread to all people because all sinned.

and regarding

Titus 2:11 (LEB) — 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,

There is no mention of the elect.

There is a mention, however, of all people.

and regarding the world

John 3:17 (LEB) — 17 For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him.

5. the world as mankind (Sib. Or. 1, 189)—a. gener. οὐαί τῷ κ. ἀπὸ τῶν σκανδάλων woe to mankind because of vexations Mt 18:7; τὸ φῶς τοῦ κ. the light for mankind 5:14; cf. J 8:12; 9:5. ὁ σωτὴρ τοῦ κ. 4:42; 1J 4:14 (this designation is found in the inscrs., esp. oft. of Hadrian [WWeber, Untersuchungen z. Geschichte des Kaisers Hadrianus ’07, 225; 226; 229]).—J 1:29; 3:17

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

John 3:16 (LEB) — 16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.



Ro 5:6
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

The term world also refers to the ungodly

the world, and everything that belongs to it, appears as that which is hostile to God, i.e. lost in sin, wholly at odds w. anything divine, ruined and depraved

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

John 12:47 (LEB) — 47 And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I will not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

What it never means is the elect alone.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Certainly it is unnecessary for you to study the Scripture. Since seem to know more than God about what Scripture means.

Not necessarily. All through the OT, not a single person would have read Hos 11:1 and thought it meant anything other than exactly what it says, Out of Egypt, God called the nation of Israel. Yet when we read Matt 2:15, we get a whole new perspective on what Hosea meant, and see that it was not only talking about what had happened, but was a prophecy about what would happen. New information gives new insight into what the OT passages mean.

Israel and "My Son" (Jesus as a babe) "called out of Egypt" means "Church" (Greek: ekklesia, which means "called out [ones]")
Israel is the original and true Church of God for they were called out of Egypt. Israel is betrothed to God making her His Bride. In the New Testament each letter is sent "to the Church" (at Corinth, Ephesus, Philippi, etc.) referring to Israel of born-again believers.

The New Covenant writings from Matthew to Revelation were written by Jews/Jewish Christians TO and FOR Jews and Jewish Christians living in those cities named in the letter (in Asia Minor.) They do not refer to "Gentiles" for Gentiles are NOT the betrothed Bride of Christ (Anointing = Spirit.)

God gave the Apostles, including Paul/Saul greater understanding of the OT Scripture so that they could see how He fulfilled all of what was written in the OT, and so they could more perfectly instruct the Church in its beginning.
Again, read Gal 3:8 which looks back to Gen 12:3 and Gen 22:18. Paul is giving us greater insight into what God was telling Abraham.

All of mankind, Jews and Gentiles alike, are brought into the New Covenant with Christ. There is no longer a division between Jews and Gentiles as we are told in Eph 2:14-15.

Under the same anointing of the Spirit God gives who He wills whatever understanding He deems for that person who study under the anointing, and none are receiving "greater" understanding than another. I receive the same understanding Saul or Peter, or John had when I study the Old Testament in order to confirm what the apostles wrote in the New Testament. Saul was a rabbi and Pharisee and as such knew the Old Testament. What Saul wrote in his letters to Jewish Christians at Corinth, Ephesus, etc., are his understanding of the Old Testament Scripture that records prophecies and promises, events, and people in Israel's history whom God called prophets.

The ONLY people who are in covenant with God are the Hebrew people also known as the children of Israel. Saul makes this very clear as he explains the totality of God's salvation of the Hebrew people:

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites;
to whom pertaineth
the adoption, and
the glory, and
the covenants, and
the giving of the law, and
the service of God, and
the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh
Christ came,
who is over all, God blessed for ever.
Amen.
Romans 9:1–5.

In this passage above Saul numerates total salvation given to the Jews, to "my brethren, my kinsmen of the flesh" (or Jews.)

NONE of these things are given to Gentiles. It is YOUR erroneous interpretation of the NT that is in error. NONE of these things that enumerate salvation is ever given to Gentiles and Saul is clear in what he says in Romans 9:4-5.

Take a look who he is talking of and to whom he is writing to:

Who are Israelites;
to whom pertaineth
the adoption, and
the glory, and
the covenants, and
the giving of the law, and
the service of God, and
the promises;
Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh
Christ came,

NONE of these things are given to Gentiles and one must have ALL these to be saved for Saul is describing salvation that is OF THE JEWS.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Wait a minute here. God didn't sanction them, but He inspired them? He literally breathed them into the writers yet He didn't sanction them?

NO MAN in the Old Testament ever had the Holy Spirit dwelling IN them. They all had the Spirit "overshadow" them, just like Mary whom the Spirit "overshadowed" her and she was "found with child."
Although a lamb was slain BEFORE God created heaven, earth, and man, no one, as Jesus says, had the Holy Spirit dwelling within them.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:16–17.

The Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation, for conversion. Jesus says "Even the Spirit of Truth whom THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE" makes an astounding statement that the world cannot be saved because they cannot receive Him (the Spirit.)

Sorry, but your Jew-focused blinders are what is wrong. The NT Letters were written to Christ followers of every nation and tongue. Read the introductions to each letter again. They are written to the saints in each place or area. Not to Jewish saints. Not to Jewish leaders. Not to Jewish heroes. But to the saints, period. There are, and were even then, saints among the Jews and among the Gentiles (many more Gentile saints today than there are Jewish saints).

The Greek word "ekklesia" is translated as "church" which means "called out [ones]." Israel is the true Church of God for they were "called out of Egypt" and they are also according to Hosea the "Betrothed of God."
Thus, in the New Testament all Saul's letters are written "to the Church" (at Corinth, Ephesus, Philippi, etc.) meaning that those he is writing to are Jews - NOT GENTILES - for God never called Gentiles His Bride or His Church.

YOUR INTERPRETATION of the New Testament writings are WRONG.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Thats your opinion, I feel the same about you. We will see one day in the Judgment.

Yes, we will. Some of us are going to receive stripes.
The Word of God Himself will teach DOCTRINE, REPROOF, CORRECTION, AND INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS and some will have to be spanked (and I hope very HARD!)

 

[jeremiah1five]

Try all men

Christ's blood was a necessary element to effect the covenant.

Matt 26:28for this is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Mark 14:24And he said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many.
Luke 22:20And in the same way the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood which is poured out for you.
1 Cor 11:25Likewise also the cup, after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

And his blood was poured out in his death for all

Hebrews 2:9 (LEB) — 9 but we see Jesus, for a short time made lower than the angels, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that apart from God he might taste death on behalf of everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14–15 (KJV 1900) — 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

A ransom for all, as God desires the salvation of all people

1 Timothy 2:3–6 (LEB) — 3 This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time,

He was therefore making propitiation for all the world's sin

1 John 2:2 (LEB) — 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Christ is therefore a savior for all the world

1 John 4:14 (LEB) — 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Titus 2:11 (LEB) — 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,

1 Timothy 4:10 (LEB) — 10 For to this end we labor and suffer reproach, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of believers.

All which extol what is spoken of here

Ephesians 2:12–22 (LEB) — 12 that you were at that time apart from Christ, alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, not having hope, and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you, the ones who once were far away, have become near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of the partition, the enmity, in his flesh, 15 invalidating the law of commandments in ordinances, in order that he might create the two in himself into one new man, thus making peace, 16 and might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in himself. 17 And coming, he proclaimed the good news of peace to you who were far away and peace to the ones who were near, 18 because through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 Consequently, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens of the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are built up together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

You need to stop rejecting the word of God.

God made covenant with Abraham, and we have the record of that covenant. God names him in Scripture.
So, what is the name of the Gentile you say God made covenant with?


IF you can't name this person who possesses covenant of God then all your Scripture is misapplied and mis-interpreted. That's the bottom line.

 

[jeremiah1five]

LOL

You simply ignored much

Hebrews 2:9 (LEB) — 9 but we see Jesus, for a short time made lower than the angels, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that apart from God he might taste death on behalf of everyone.

doing nothing at all to show everyone means Jews alone

or that all also refers to Jews alone

2 Corinthians 5:14–15 (KJV 1900) — 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Or that all people mean Jews alone

1 Timothy 2:3–6 (LEB) — 3 This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time,

Gentiles, it seems, were part of the all people/human beings to whom was provided the Christ as a ranson.

He was therefore making propitiation for all the world's sin

1 John 2:2 (LEB) — 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Christ is therefore a savior for all the world

1 John 4:14 (LEB) — 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Titus 2:11 (LEB) — 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,

1 Timothy 4:10 (LEB) — 10 For to this end we labor and suffer reproach, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of believers.

World likewise does not mean Jews alone

And Gentiles clearly received the effects of the New Covenant

Acts 10:45And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles,
Acts 11:1Now the apostles and the brothers who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had accepted the word of God.
Acts 11:18And when they heard these things, they became silent and praised God, saying, “Then God has granted the repentance leading to life to the Gentiles also!”
Acts 13:48And when the Gentiles heard this, they began to rejoice and to glorify the word of the Lord. And all those who were designated for eternal life believed.
Perhaps you should consider repentance as you reject the word of even He who brought about the covenant.

John 6:51 (LEB) — 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats from this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

John 12:46I have come as a light into the world, in order that everyone who believes in me will not remain in the darkness.

John 12:47And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I will not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

As I noted, you have ignored much of the word of God and failed to be a light to the world as you were commanded.

What was the name of the Gentile you say God made covenant with?

God made covenant with Abraham and names him.
God made covenant with Solomon and names him.
God made covenant with David and names him.

What is the name of this Gentile you claim God made covenant with?

YOU say Gentiles are in covenant with God so tell me his name who is the holder of such a covenant?
THERE IS NONE.

Genesis to Malachi is a record of God dealing with Abraham and his seed the children of Israel (Jacob.)
Matthew to Revelation is a record of God dealing with the children of Israel.
If God is dealing with Gentiles and you say God loves Gentiles then why does God send Joshua into Canaan with instructions to eradicate with extreme prejudice every man, woman, teen, child, infant, and babe in the womb?
God destroys those He loves????

Gimme a break.

 

[jeremiah1five]

This was a message to Jews

Acts 13:46Both Paul and Barnabas spoke boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you, since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life! Behold, we are turning to the Gentiles!

The Luke records Saul and Barnabas violating God and His Word for Gentiles were NEVER under the Law.
No, those Gentiles are mixed-race Hebrews. They grew up as Gentiles in Greek culture and for all intents and purposes the Jews treated Samaritans badly and didn't even call the Jew. They were the offspring of the ten northern kingdom tribes and Gentiles. They treated the two southern kingdom tribes who are also the offspring of Jew-Gentile as "Gentile" and didn't call them "Jew."

Spock was half-Human and half-Vulcan. Vulcans looked down at him as a fourth, sixth, even an eighth-class citizen.
All people do that when their race is mixed.

 

[jeremiah1five]

@jeremiah1five



Only as they were in Christ, so the letter is appropriate for anyone in Christ. In Hebrews when it speaks of Christ as a High Priest as say here Heb 3:1

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

He is the same for Gentile believers in Christ Jesus

Saul enumerates the totality of salvation:

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites;
to whom pertaineth
the adoption,
and the glory,
and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh
Christ came,
who is over all, God blessed for ever.
Amen.
Romans 9:1–5.

These things are given to the Jews through covenant and promises as found in the OT.
None of these things were ever given to Gentiles.

This is why SALVATION IS OF THE JEWS.

 

[jeremiah1five]

You have shown nothing in contradiction to

Titus 2:11 (LEB) — 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,

and assume God cannot bring any he wants into the covenant



Sorry, but world does not mean Jews alone

You are redefining words to suit your likes.







You argued above world refers to the world of the Jews.

But BTW

John 17:6–9 (LEB) — 6 “I have revealed your name to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you have given them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they understand that all the things that you have given me are from you, 8 because the words that you gave to me I have given to them, and they received them and know truly that I have come from you, and they have believed that you have sent me. 9 I am asking on behalf of them. I am not asking on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those whom you have given me, because they are yours,

World here is simply those who are not Gods

And

John 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. But because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you.
John 17:6 “I have revealed your name to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you have given them to me, and they have kept your word.

Christ here prays for the disciples he had been given

Later he prays for those who believe in God through the ministry of those given

John 17:20 (LEB) — 20 “And I do not ask on behalf of these only, but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their word,

world here remain those who do not know God

John 17:25 (LEB) — 25 Righteous Father, although the world does not know you, yet I have known you, and these men have come to know that you sent me.

Nowhere is there reference to sacrifice only for the world of Jews.

The context is those in covenant with God.

I am still waiting for someone who claims God made covenant with Gentiles to show me the Scripture in the Old Testament that says such a thing and to tell me this Gentile's name who has covenant with God.

It's that simple.

DO THAT and then all your interpretations of God-Gentile covenant become valid.

That's all. Just show me the Scripture in the OT that records God making salvation covenant with Gentiles and tell me that Gentile's name who possesses such a covenant.

It's that simple.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Man had a solidarity, union in Adam when he sinned, so much so all men in him sinned, that's how God reckons it.

As far as Titus 2:11 goes, its all the elect universally, not just jews. Its paramount to the same argument you having with @jeremiah1five who probably believes Titus 2:11 refers to all hebrew jews, but it doesnt, it applies to all people ethnicity wise save they elect.

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:11.

"All men" meaning all Hebrews/Jews.
Israel is the context of what Saul is saying in this chapter as in all chapters.

 

[TomL]

Man had a solidarity, union in Adam when he sinned, so much so all men in him sinned, that's how God reckons it.

As far as Titus 2:11 goes, its all the elect universally, not just jews. Its paramount to the same argument you having with @jeremiah1five who probably believes Titus 2:11 refers to all hebrew jews, but it doesnt, it applies to all people ethnicity wise save they elect.

The term World is further described here

The context is those in covenant with God.

I am still waiting for someone who claims God made covenant with Gentiles to show me the Scripture in the Old Testament that says such a thing and to tell me this Gentile's name who has covenant with God.

It's that simple.

DO THAT and then all your interpretations of God-Gentile covenant become valid.

That's all. Just show me the Scripture in the OT that records God making salvation covenant with Gentiles and tell me that Gentile's name who possesses such a covenant.

It's that simple.

Sorry you have simply misinterpreted scripture

You have shown nothing in contradiction to

Titus 2:11 (LEB) — 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,

and assume God cannot bring any he wants into the covenant


You have argued world refers to the world of the Jews.

But you clearly are in error

John 17:6–9 (LEB) — 6 “I have revealed your name to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you have given them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they understand that all the things that you have given me are from you, 8 because the words that you gave to me I have given to them, and they received them and know truly that I have come from you, and they have believed that you have sent me. 9 I am asking on behalf of them. I am not asking on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those whom you have given me, because they are yours,

World here is simply those who are not Gods

And

John 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. But because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you.
John 17:6 “I have revealed your name to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you have given them to me, and they have kept your word.

Christ here prays for the disciples he had been given

They are not a part of the world.

Later he prays for those who believe in God through the ministry of those given

John 17:20 (LEB) — 20 “And I do not ask on behalf of these only, but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their word,

Here the prayer is for all who believe.

world here remain those who do not know God

John 17:25 (LEB) — 25 Righteous Father, although the world does not know you, yet I have known you, and these men have come to know that you sent me.

Nowhere is the word world a reference to Jews alone.

Through Christ is salvation for the world

John 3:17For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him.
1 John 4:14 (LEB) — 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

world defined as all people

Titus 2:11 (LEB) — 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,

1 Timothy 4:10 (LEB) — 10 For to this end we labor and suffer reproach, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of believers.

All people includes more than just believers, and never is it a reference for Jews alone.

God is their savior based on his love for all people, that is the world.

John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Your position is clearly refuted.

 

[TomL]

The Luke records Saul and Barnabas violating God and His Word for Gentiles were NEVER under the Law.
No, those Gentiles are mixed-race Hebrews. They grew up as Gentiles in Greek culture and for all intents and purposes the Jews treated Samaritans badly and didn't even call the Jew. They were the offspring of the ten northern kingdom tribes and Gentiles. They treated the two southern kingdom tribes who are also the offspring of Jew-Gentile as "Gentile" and didn't call them "Jew."

Spock was half-Human and half-Vulcan. Vulcans looked down at him as a fourth, sixth, even an eighth-class citizen.
All people do that when their race is mixed.

Scripture

Acts 13:46–47 (KJV 1900) — 46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

You have ignored it once again.

 

[TomL]

God made covenant with Abraham, and we have the record of that covenant. God names him in Scripture.
So, what is the name of the Gentile you say God made covenant with?


IF you can't name this person who possesses covenant of God then all your Scripture is misapplied and mis-interpreted. That's the bottom line.

You simply ignored this

Christ's blood was a necessary element to effect the New covenant.

Matt 26:28for this is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Mark 14:24And he said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many.
Luke 22:20And in the same way the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood which is poured out for you.
1 Cor 11:25Likewise also the cup, after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

And his blood was poured out in his death for all

Hebrews 2:9 (LEB) — 9 but we see Jesus, for a short time made lower than the angels, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that apart from God he might taste death on behalf of everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14–15 (KJV 1900) — 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

A ransom for all, as God desires the salvation of all people

1 Timothy 2:3–6 (LEB) — 3 This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time,

He was therefore making propitiation for all the world's sin

1 John 2:2 (LEB) — 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Christ is therefore a savior for all the world

1 John 4:14 (LEB) — 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Titus 2:11 (LEB) — 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,

1 Timothy 4:10 (LEB) — 10 For to this end we labor and suffer reproach, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of believers.

All which extol what is spoken of here

Ephesians 2:12–22 (LEB) — 12 that you were at that time apart from Christ, alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, not having hope, and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you, the ones who once were far away, have become near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of the partition, the enmity, in his flesh, 15 invalidating the law of commandments in ordinances, in order that he might create the two in himself into one new man, thus making peace, 16 and might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in himself. 17 And coming, he proclaimed the good news of peace to you who were far away and peace to the ones who were near, 18 because through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 Consequently, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens of the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are built up together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

You need to stop rejecting the word of God.

Clearly the gentiles who once were far away were brought into the household of God.

Were they brought into the household, made fellow citizens apart from the covenant?

BTW

Rom 4:13For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants, that he would be heir of the world, was not through the law, but through the righteousness by faith.

Gen 18:18Abraham will surely become a great and strong nation, and all the nations of the earth will be blessed on account of him.

 

[TomL]

God made covenant with Abraham, and we have the record of that covenant. God names him in Scripture.
So, what is the name of the Gentile you say God made covenant with?


IF you can't name this person who possesses covenant of God then all your Scripture is misapplied and mis-interpreted. That's the bottom line.

The bottom line is you ignore scripture

Rom 4:13For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants, that he would be heir of the world, was not through the law, but through the righteousness by faith.

Gen 18:18Abraham will surely become a great and strong nation, and all the nations of the earth will be blessed on account of him.

Fulfilled

Ephesians 2:12–22 (LEB) — 12 that you were at that time apart from Christ, alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, not having hope, and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you, the ones who once were far away, have become near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of the partition, the enmity, in his flesh, 15 invalidating the law of commandments in ordinances, in order that he might create the two in himself into one new man, thus making peace, 16 and might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in himself. 17 And coming, he proclaimed the good news of peace to you who were far away and peace to the ones who were near, 18 because through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 Consequently, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens of the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are built up together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

 

[Doug Brents]

Israel and "My Son" (Jesus as a babe) "called out of Egypt" means "Church" (Greek: ekklesia, which means "called out [ones]")
Israel is the original and true Church of God for they were called out of Egypt. Israel is betrothed to God making her His Bride. In the New Testament each letter is sent "to the Church" (at Corinth, Ephesus, Philippi, etc.) referring to Israel of born-again believers.

Both Jew and Gentile are part of the Church that is "Israel of born-again believers".

The New Covenant writings from Matthew to Revelation were written by Jews/Jewish Christians TO and FOR Jews and Jewish Christians

Nope, they were written to and for Christians, period; regardless of whether they were Jew or Gentile, because under the New Covenant there is no longer Jew or Gentile, but one "person", one group, one people (Gal 3:28).

living in those cities named in the letter (in Asia Minor.) They do not refer to "Gentiles" for Gentiles are NOT the betrothed Bride of Christ (Anointing = Spirit.)

Gentiles are part of the Church (Eph 3:6, Eph 2:19, ), and it is the Church that is the bride of Christ (Eph 5:25-27, Rev 21:2, 9-10).

Under the same anointing of the Spirit God gives who He wills whatever understanding He deems for that person who study under the anointing, and none are receiving "greater" understanding than another.

You contradict yourself in this one sentence. The Spirit give what understanding He deems for that person (this means some may receive greater and some lesser understanding), yet then you go on to say that none receive greater understanding than another. Yes, the Apostles had much greater understanding than anyone else.

I receive the same understanding Saul or Peter, or John had when I study the Old Testament in order to confirm what the apostles wrote in the New Testament. Saul was a rabbi and Pharisee and as such knew the Old Testament. What Saul wrote in his letters to Jewish Christians at Corinth, Ephesus, etc., are his understanding of the Old Testament Scripture that records prophecies and promises, events, and people in Israel's history whom God called prophets.

Have you not read Paul/Saul's letters? Frequently in them he states that he is speaking directly to the Gentiles within the congregations. And when he does, he tells them that they are equal in the Church to their Jewish brothers and sisters within the Church. He is not only speaking to the Jews within the Church.

The ONLY people who are in covenant with God are the Hebrew people also known as the children of Israel. Saul makes this very clear as he explains the totality of God's salvation of the Hebrew people:

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites;
to whom pertaineth
the adoption, and
the glory, and
the covenants, and
the giving of the law, and
the service of God, and
the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh
Christ came,
who is over all, God blessed for ever.
Amen.
Romans 9:1–5.

In this passage above Saul numerates total salvation given to the Jews, to "my brethren, my kinsmen of the flesh" (or Jews.)

No, he says that he wishes total salvation on them. But he knows that not all of the Jews will submit to Christ, nor will many of them be saved.

NONE of these things are given to Gentiles.

The covenants, and glory, and giving of the law, and promises did indeed come through the Jews. But they did not stop there. In the New Covenant the Gentiles are brought in as equals, co-heirs with Christ, fellow citizens of Heaven (see passages listed above).

It is YOUR erroneous interpretation of the NT that is in error. NONE of these things that enumerate salvation is ever given to Gentiles and Saul is clear in what he says in Romans 9:4-5.

Take a look who he is talking of and to whom he is writing to:

Who are Israelites;
to whom pertaineth
the adoption, and
the glory, and
the covenants, and
the giving of the law, and
the service of God, and
the promises;
Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh
Christ came,

NONE of these things are given to Gentiles and one must have ALL these to be saved for Saul is describing salvation that is OF THE JEWS.

If you stop there, it does indeed seem so. But when you continue to read through Rom 9, you see that not all who are saved are Jews, and not all of the Jews will be saved.
"For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel" (Rom 9:6).
"And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 namely us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles" (Rom 9:23-24).
"What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith; 31 however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law." (Rom 9:30-31).

My dear friend, read all of the Scripture, not just the parts that tickle your ears and seem to agree with what you already believe.

 

[TomL]

Both Jew and Gentile are part of the Church that is "Israel of born-again believers".

Nope, they were written to and for Christians, period; regardless of whether they were Jew or Gentile, because under the New Covenant there is no longer Jew or Gentile, but one "person", one group, one people (Gal 3:28).

Gentiles are part of the Church (Eph 3:6, Eph 2:19, ), and it is the Church that is the bride of Christ (Eph 5:25-27, Rev 21:2, 9-10).

You contradict yourself in this one sentence. The Spirit give what understanding He deems for that person (this means some may receive greater and some lesser understanding), yet then you go on to say that none receive greater understanding than another. Yes, the Apostles had much greater understanding than anyone else.

Have you not read Paul/Saul's letters? Frequently in them he states that he is speaking directly to the Gentiles within the congregations. And when he does, he tells them that they are equal in the Church to their Jewish brothers and sisters within the Church. He is not only speaking to the Jews within the Church.

No, he says that he wishes total salvation on them. But he knows that not all of the Jews will submit to Christ, nor will many of them be saved.

The covenants, and glory, and giving of the law, and promises did indeed come through the Jews. But they did not stop there. In the New Covenant the Gentiles are brought in as equals, co-heirs with Christ, fellow citizens of Heaven (see passages listed above).

If you stop there, it does indeed seem so. But when you continue to read through Rom 9, you see that not all who are saved are Jews, and not all of the Jews will be saved.
"For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel" (Rom 9:6).
"And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 namely us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles" (Rom 9:23-24).
"What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith; 31 however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law." (Rom 9:30-31).

My dear friend, read all of the Scripture, not just the parts that tickle your ears and seem to agree with what you already believe.

Indeed

He also ignores this
Ephesians 2:11 (LEB) — 11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, the so-called uncircumcision by the so-called circumcision in the flesh, made by hands,

Ephesians 2:12–22 (LEB) — 12 that you were at that time apart from Christ, alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, not having hope, and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you, the ones who once were far away, have become near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of the partition, the enmity, in his flesh, 15 invalidating the law of commandments in ordinances, in order that he might create the two in himself into one new man, thus making peace, 16 and might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in himself. 17 And coming, he proclaimed the good news of peace to you who were far away and peace to the ones who were near, 18 because through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 Consequently, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens of the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are built up together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

 

[civic]

Romans 5:12 still does not state all received the sin of Adam

Romans 5:12 (LEB) — 12 Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death spread to all people because all sinned.

and regarding

Titus 2:11 (LEB) — 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,

There is no mention of the elect.

There is a mention, however, of all people.

and regarding the world

John 3:17 (LEB) — 17 For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him.

5. the world as mankind (Sib. Or. 1, 189)—a. gener. οὐαί τῷ κ. ἀπὸ τῶν σκανδάλων woe to mankind because of vexations Mt 18:7; τὸ φῶς τοῦ κ. the light for mankind 5:14; cf. J 8:12; 9:5. ὁ σωτὴρ τοῦ κ. 4:42; 1J 4:14 (this designation is found in the inscrs., esp. oft. of Hadrian [WWeber, Untersuchungen z. Geschichte des Kaisers Hadrianus ’07, 225; 226; 229]).—J 1:29; 3:17

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

John 3:16 (LEB) — 16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.



Ro 5:6
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

The term world also refers to the ungodly

the world, and everything that belongs to it, appears as that which is hostile to God, i.e. lost in sin, wholly at odds w. anything divine, ruined and depraved

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

John 12:47 (LEB) — 47 And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I will not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

What it never means is the elect alone.

Amen

 

[Doug Brents]

NO MAN in the Old Testament ever had the Holy Spirit dwelling IN them. They all had the Spirit "overshadow" them, just like Mary whom the Spirit "overshadowed" her and she was "found with child."
Although a lamb was slain BEFORE God created heaven, earth, and man, no one, as Jesus says, had the Holy Spirit dwelling within them.

This is true. But it does not answer my question about what you said. If God inspired the writing of the Scripture, then God sanctioned it; He authored it; it is His Scriptures.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:16–17.

The Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation, for conversion. Jesus says "Even the Spirit of Truth whom THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE" makes an astounding statement that the world cannot be saved because they cannot receive Him (the Spirit.)

When he says that the "world cannot receive" the Spirit, he is not talking about Gentiles. He is talking about those who have not yet been saved. Anyone who is saved (Jew or Gentile) receives the Holy Spirit indwelling their heart. But those who have not been saved cannot receive Him.

The Greek word "ekklesia" is translated as "church" which means "called out [ones]." Israel is the true Church of God for they were "called out of Egypt" and they are also according to Hosea the "Betrothed of God."
Thus, in the New Testament all Saul's letters are written "to the Church" (at Corinth, Ephesus, Philippi, etc.) meaning that those he is writing to are Jews - NOT GENTILES - for God never called Gentiles His Bride or His Church.

YOUR INTERPRETATION of the New Testament writings are WRONG.

Israel is not the only ones who have been "called out". When Jesus said that He would build His "Church" (Matt 16:18), the Church that He would build had not yet been established. No one was yet a part of the Church; not the Jews, not the Apostles, no one. The Church He would build was not established until Pentecost, and at that point 5000 people were added to it (all of them happened to be Jews). But when Peter went to preach to Cornelius, God indicated to Peter, and the Jews with him, that the Gentiles were fully acceptable to God to become part of the Church.

 

[Doug Brents]

Indeed

He also ignores this

Please, let us not make points to each other that are intended to influence someone else on the forum. If you desire to make a point to someone, direct your comment to him, not toward me.

Ephesians 2:11 (LEB) — 11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, the so-called uncircumcision by the so-called circumcision in the flesh, made by hands,

Ephesians 2:12–22 (LEB) — 12 that you were at that time apart from Christ, alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, not having hope, and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you, the ones who once were far away, have become near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of the partition, the enmity, in his flesh, 15 invalidating the law of commandments in ordinances, in order that he might create the two in himself into one new man, thus making peace, 16 and might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in himself. 17 And coming, he proclaimed the good news of peace to you who were far away and peace to the ones who were near, 18 because through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 Consequently, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens of the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are built up together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

I agree with the point you are making. This passage mirrors and strengthens the statements Paul made in Rom 9. The Gentiles are 100% equal with the Jews within the Church. There is no division. The Gentiles are part of the New Covenant in Jesus' blood.

 

[brightfame52]

Romans 5:12 still does not state all received the sin of Adam

Romans 5:12 (LEB) — 12 Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death spread to all people because all sinned.

and regarding

Titus 2:11 (LEB) — 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,

There is no mention of the elect.

There is a mention, however, of all people.

and regarding the world

John 3:17 (LEB) — 17 For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him.

5. the world as mankind (Sib. Or. 1, 189)—a. gener. οὐαί τῷ κ. ἀπὸ τῶν σκανδάλων woe to mankind because of vexations Mt 18:7; τὸ φῶς τοῦ κ. the light for mankind 5:14; cf. J 8:12; 9:5. ὁ σωτὴρ τοῦ κ. 4:42; 1J 4:14 (this designation is found in the inscrs., esp. oft. of Hadrian [WWeber, Untersuchungen z. Geschichte des Kaisers Hadrianus ’07, 225; 226; 229]).—J 1:29; 3:17

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

John 3:16 (LEB) — 16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.



Ro 5:6
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

The term world also refers to the ungodly

the world, and everything that belongs to it, appears as that which is hostile to God, i.e. lost in sin, wholly at odds w. anything divine, ruined and depraved

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

John 12:47 (LEB) — 47 And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I will not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

What it never means is the elect alone.

Man had a solidarity, union in Adam when he sinned, so much so all men in him sinned, that's how God reckons it.

As far as Titus 2:11 goes, its all the elect universally, not just jews. Paul wrote Titus and stated the letter was in accordance to the Faith of Gods Elect, not all mankind Titus 1:1-3

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

Pauls preaching and writing was to bring to Faith Gods elect, so they will acknowledge the Truth. Eternal life was never promised to all mankind, but to only those the Father gave to Christ Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
All the Sheep Jn 10:27-28,29
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

So Titus 2:11 could never, ever be talking about all mankind individually, but all Gods elect, or sheep from all people ethnicities.

Eternal life is only for an Elect People, their Inheritance !