civic
Well-known member
I have an entire thread of church history and its origins here.
The Issue of Limited Atonement
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
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atpollard
Well-known member
So your real problem is with believing God's promises:
- John 6:44 [ESV] No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
- John 10:28-29 [ESV] I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
- Ephesians 1:13-14 [ESV] In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
- Hebrews 13:5 [ESV] Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."
- Matthew 7:21-23 [ESV] "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'"
- 1 John 2:19-20 [ESV] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.
Johann
Well-known member
I disagree. The concept was pre-Augustine.
Your assertion that "sin nature" and "total depravity" are absent from Scripture and that these ideas originated with Augustine is incorrect. While the term "total depravity" itself is not in Scripture, the concept is thoroughly biblical.
The doctrine teaches that humanity is corrupt in every aspect of its being (mind, will, emotions, and body) due to sin.
1. The Sin Nature (ἁμαρτία - Hamartia) in Scripture
The Bible consistently teaches that mankind is born with a sinful nature inherited from Adam. This concept is called original sin and is explicitly taught in multiple passages.
A. Romans 5:12 – Sin Entered Through Adam
Rom 5:12 – "Therefore, just as through one man sin (ἁμαρτία - hamartia) entered (εἰσῆλθεν, Aor Act Ind 3rd Sg) into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."
ἁμαρτία (hamartia, "sin") – a noun in the nominative singular feminine, referring to the inherited principle of sin.
εἰσῆλθεν (eisēlthen, "entered") – Aorist Active Indicative 3rd Person Singular, showing a completed action that brought a permanent consequence (sin entering the world).
The phrase "all sinned" (πάντες ἥμαρτον - pantes hēmarton) is an Aorist Indicative Active, signifying that all humanity participated in Adam’s sin.
This verse teaches that sin entered the world through Adam, and as a result, all humanity inherits sinfulness.
B. Romans 7:18-20 – The Internal Sinful Nature
Rom 7:18 – "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing: for to will (τὸ θέλειν, Pres Act Inf) is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."
τὸ θέλειν (to thelein, "the willing") – Present Active Infinitive, indicating an ongoing struggle within Paul’s will.
οὐκ οἰκεῖ (ouk oikei, "does not dwell") – Present Active Indicative, stating that no good inherently exists in his flesh.
Paul describes a sinful nature (ἡ ἁμαρτία ἡ ἐνοικοῦσα ἐν ἐμοί - "the sin dwelling in me"), which is an ongoing reality.
Paul is not speaking of individual sinful acts but the inherent corruption within his flesh, which aligns with the doctrine of sin nature.
C. Psalm 51:5 – Born in Sin
Psalm 51:5 – "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me."
בְּעָוֺ֣ון (bə‘āwōn, "in iniquity") – A prepositional phrase showing that David was conceived in a state of sin.
בְּחֵטְא (bəḥēṭ’) - "in sin" – A noun meaning moral wrongdoing, demonstrating that sin was present from conception.
This verse aligns with Romans 5:12, affirming that humans are born in a state of sin rather than becoming sinful only after personal acts.
2. Total Depravity: Are Humans Spiritually Dead?
Total depravity does not mean people are as evil as possible, but that every part of human nature is corrupted by sin.
A. Ephesians 2:1-3 – Dead in Sins
Eph 2:1 – "And you were dead (νεκροὺς, Acc Pl Masc) in your trespasses and sins."
νεκροὺς (nekrous, "dead") – Accusative plural masculine, referring to a spiritual state of death before salvation.
This confirms that humans are not just sick or weak, but spiritually dead, unable to seek God apart from His grace.
Eph 2:3 – "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature (φύσει, Dative Sg Fem) children of wrath, even as the rest."
φύσει (phusei, "by nature") – Dative singular feminine, meaning that humans are naturally, inherently children of wrath.
This verse teaches inherited corruption, aligning with Psalm 51:5 and Romans 5:12.
B. Jeremiah 17:9 – The Heart is Deceitful
Jer 17:9 – "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately sick; who can understand it?"
עָקֹב (ʿāqōb, "deceitful") – A passive participle indicating a permanent condition of the heart being deceitful.
אָנֻשׁ (ʾānūš, "desperately wicked") – A Niphal participle, showing that the heart is incurable in its wickedness.
This aligns with the doctrine of total depravity, confirming that humans cannot naturally seek after God.
3. Does This Come from Augustine?
A. Pre-Augustinian Jewish and Christian Views
Your claim that sin nature and total depravity originated with Augustine is false. Jewish writings before Augustine affirm human depravity:
Dead Sea Scrolls (1QH 4.29-30): "The human heart is perverse from birth; only through divine intervention can one be righteous."
2 Esdras 3:21-22 (Apocrypha, 1st century AD): "A grain of evil seed was sown in the heart of Adam, and from him all his descendants are wicked."
Early Christian Fathers:
Irenaeus (130-202 AD): "Through Adam’s disobedience, sin entered the world and spread to all men." (Against Heresies, 5.12.3)
Tertullian (160-225 AD): "Mankind is infected with Adam’s corruption." (On the Soul, 40)
These prove that the doctrine predates Augustine and is rooted in Jewish and early Christian thought.
The Biblical Teaching on Sin Nature and Total Depravity
Scripture teaches that all humans inherit a sin nature from Adam (Rom 5:12, Psalm 51:5).
Humans are born spiritually dead and unable to seek God apart from grace (Eph 2:1-3, Jer 17:9).
The doctrine was not invented by Augustine but was already present in Jewish writings and early Christian theology.
Greek morphology confirms that sin is an inherited and ongoing state, not just personal acts.
Cross-References Supporting Sin Nature & Total Depravity
Inheriting sin: Gen 8:21, Job 14:4, Psalm 51:5, Rom 5:12
Spiritual death & inability to seek God: John 6:44, Rom 3:10-12, Rom 8:7-8, Eph 2:1-3
The heart's wickedness: Jer 17:9, Mark 7:21-23
Sin in the flesh: Rom 7:18-20, Rom 8:6-8
So your claim that sin nature and total depravity are absent from Scripture is refuted by exegetical analysis, Greek morphology, and historical evidence.
Sin Nature in Hebrew (Old Testament)
In the Hebrew Bible, sin nature is often conveyed using words for sin (חֵטְא, עָוֺן, פֶּשַׁע), corruption (שָׁחַת), inclination (יֵצֶר), and uncleanness (טָמֵא).
A. יֵצֶר (yetser) – "Inclination" or "Nature"
Genesis 6:5 – "Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
Gen 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness (depravity) of man was great on the earth, and that every imagination or intent of the thoughts of his heart were only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 The LORD N1regretted that He had made mankind on the earth, and He was [deeply] grieved in His heart.
Gen 6:7 So the LORD said, "I will destroy (annihilate) mankind whom I have created from the surface of the earth--not only man, but the animals and the crawling things and the birds of the air--because it [deeply] grieves Me [to see mankind's sin] and I regret that I have made them."
יֵצֶר (yetser) – Refers to a deep-seated disposition or inclination, indicating that humanity’s natural tendency is toward evil.
The phrase "only evil continually" (רַק רַע כָּל־הַיּוֹם) emphasizes that the corruption is total.
This is foundational to the Jewish doctrine of Yetzer Hara (יֵצֶר הָרָע, "evil inclination"), which aligns with the New Testament teaching on the sinful flesh.
B. עָוֺן (ʿāwōn) – "Iniquity" (Inherited Sin)
Psalm 51:5 – "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity (בְּעָוֺ֣ון), and in sin (בְּחֵטְא) my mother conceived me."
עָוֺן (ʿāwōn) – Refers to inherited corruption, a bent toward sin rather than just an individual act.
בְּחֵטְא (bəḥēṭ’) – "In sin" (חֵטְא - ḥēṭ’) confirms that David was in a sinful state from conception, not just after committing individual sins.
This aligns with the concept of original sin (Romans 5:12).
C. שָׁחַת (shāḥath) – "Corrupt, Ruined"
Genesis 6:11-12 – "Now the earth was corrupt (שָׁחָת) in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence."
שָׁחַת (shāḥath) – Meaning corrupt, ruined, morally perverse.
The corruption of all flesh (כָּל־בָּשָׂר, kol-basar) implies that humanity’s very nature had been tainted.
2. Sin Nature in Greek (New Testament)
In the New Testament, the sin nature is expressed primarily through the terms σάρξ (sarx, "flesh"), ἁμαρτία (hamartia, "sin"), and φθορά (phthora, "corruption").
A. σάρξ (sarx) – "Flesh" (The Sinful Nature)
Romans 8:7-8 – "Because the mind set on the flesh (σάρξ) is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
σάρξ (sarx) – Though this word can mean physical flesh, Paul often uses it metaphorically for the sinful nature, the corrupted disposition inherited from Adam.
οὐδὲ γὰρ δύναται (oude gar dynatai, "for it is not even able to do so") – The flesh lacks the ability to submit to God’s law, confirming total depravity.
B. ἁμαρτία (hamartia) – "Sin" as a Dominating Power
Romans 6:12 – "Therefore do not let sin (ἁμαρτία) reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts."
ἁμαρτία (hamartia) – Here, sin is not just an act but a ruling principle, confirming that sin has dominion over the natural man.
Paul treats sin as a force that enslaves humanity, supporting the doctrine of sin nature.
C. φθορά (phthora) – "Corruption" (Moral Decay)
2 Peter 1:4 – "By these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption (φθορά) that is in the world by lust."
φθορά (phthora) – Refers to moral decay, corruption, and the fallen state of the world.
This confirms that humanity is in a naturally corrupt state and needs divine rescue.
3. Summary of Sin Nature in Hebrew and Greek
Concept Hebrew Greek Meaning
Sinful Inclination יֵצֶר (yetser) σάρξ (sarx) The inner tendency toward sin
Inherited Sin עָוֺן (ʿāwōn) ἁμαρτία (hamartia) The fallen state inherited from Adam
Moral Corruption שָׁחַת (shāḥath) φθορά (phthora) Human nature is corrupt from birth
These terms collectively prove the biblical doctrine of sin nature, refuting claims that sin nature is absent from Scripture.
Here, from Got Questions--
While often misunderstood, the doctrine of total depravity is an acknowledgement that the Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we do. It penetrates to the very core of our being so that everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). It acknowledges that the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners by nature. Or, as Jesus says, “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.” (Matthew 7:17-18).
The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore, men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved, this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so” (Romans 8:7).
The Apostle Paul summarizes the total depravity of man in Romans 3:9-18. He begins this passage by saying that “both Jews and Greeks are all under sin.” Simply put, this means that man is under the control of sin or is controlled by his sin nature (his natural tendency to sin). The fact that unregenerate people are controlled by their selfish, sinful tendencies should not come as a surprise to any parent. What parent has to teach his or her child to be selfish, to covet what someone else has or to lie? Those actions come naturally from the child’s sin nature. Instead, the parent must devote much time to teaching the child the importance of telling the truth, of sharing instead of being selfish, of obeying instead of rebelling, etc.
Then in the rest of this passage Paul quotes extensively from the Old Testament in explaining how sinful man really is. For example, we see that 1—no one is without sin, 2—no one seeks after God, 3—there is no one who is good, 4—their speech is corrupted by sin, 5—their actions are corrupted by sin, and 6—above all, they have no fear of God. So, when one considers even these few verses, it becomes abundantly clear the Bible does indeed teach that fallen man is “totally depraved,” because sin affects all of him including his mind, will and emotions so that “there is none who does good, no not one” (Romans 3:12).
There is a common misconception regarding total depravity. Total depravity does not mean that man is as wicked or sinful as he could be, nor does it mean that man is without a conscience or any sense of right or wrong. Neither does it mean that man does not or cannot do things that seem to be good when viewed from a human perspective or measured against a human standard. It does not even mean that man cannot do things that seem to conform outwardly to the law of God. What the Bible does teach and what total depravity does recognize is that even the “good” things man does are tainted by sin because they are not done for the glory of God and out of faith in Him (Romans 14:23; Hebrews 11:6). While man looks upon the outward acts and judges them to be good, God looks upon not only the outward acts but also the inward motives that lie behind them, and because they proceed from a heart that is in rebellion against Him and they are not done for His glory, even these good deeds are like “filthy rags” in His sight. In other words, fallen man’s good deeds are motivated not by a desire to please God but by our own self-interest and are thus corrupted to the point where God declares that there is “no one who does good, no not one!”
Total depravity - is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org
Total depravity - is it biblical? Are all human beings totally depraved? Are we incapable of receiving Christ on our own?
www.gotquestions.org
Late here 11.36 PM.
You may disagree all you want, it is thoroughly biblical.
Shalom.
J.
You said:
Johann
Well-known member
Johann
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
You become a sinner when you commit a sin, not before. One is not guilty of sin until they sin.
Jesus view of chlidren
How refreshing then was the Biblical, Hebrew culture where all children were considered to be gifts from the Lord. Rachel spoke as the mother of her people when she cried, "Give me children, or I shall die!" (Genesis 30:1). Hannah prayed in the temple for a child. When God answered, she named him Samuel ("God has heard"). She later gave Samuel to the Lord's service (1 Samuel 1:20, 28). Hebrew culture elevated the family and children!
Mark 10 shows a further elevation of children by our Lord. The account opens in verse 13 with Mark telling us that "they were bringing children to [Jesus] that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them." As best we can gather, fathers, mothers, and perhaps older children, were bringing young children, many of whom were babies (for that is how Luke describes them in his parallel account, 18:15), to Jesus for his blessing. This was in keeping with a classic Jewish custom that dated all the way back to the time when the patriarch Israel laid his hands upon the heads of Ephraim and Manasseh and blessed them (Genesis 48:14). It was all very proper, traditional, and wonderful. Proud parents held out their precious children to Jesus, who took them in his arms where they snuggled close. He placed his hand on their warm little heads, and lifting his eyes to Heaven, pronounced a blessing.
We can surmise that quite a number of cheerful families stood in line chatting, with babes in arms and children scurrying around. Then it stopped. Outside the house the disciples were sending them away with a rebuke!
Why were they doing this? They were protecting Jesus. They knew Jesus was under pressure. Wherever he went, he found conflict–one time with demons, another time the religious establishment, etc. And if that was not enough, there were the crashing crowds. This matter of blessing children was simply one more drain. Besides, these were just children. They were of little importance. They could not enter debate or contribute to the cause, even if they did understand about Jesus. So the disciples stopped the flow.
Verse 14 indicates that Jesus saw what was happening, and "he was indignant." The Greek word translated "indignant" occurs only here in the New Testament and is a combination of two words: "much" and "to grieve." He was much grieved!
Jesus was angry, and his words have a clipped, staccato ring to them: "[He] said to them, 'Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God'" (v. 14). What should we draw from these passionate words?
First, Jesus loves children. Jesus, after all, had been a child himself. He was a real baby, child, teenager, and man. We see Christ's love for children as he celebrates the delight of a mother on giving birth (John 16:21), the gentle love of a father who cuddles his children (Luke 11:7), and parental love that listens to a child's every request (Matthew 7:9; Luke 11:11).
Many of his miracles involved children: the nobleman's little son (John 4:46-54), the demonized son of the man at the Mount of Transfiguration (Mark 9:14-29), Jairus' daughter to whom Christ tenderly said, "Talitha cumi," which means, "Little girl, I say to you, rise" (Mark 5:41). Jesus truly, as man and God, love children!
So we learn from Jesus' indignation, first, that Jesus loves children, and, secondly, that Jesus affirms and respects the personhood and spirituality of children. In saying, "for to such belongs the kingdom of God," he affirms their full spirituality. They are the hearts he takes to himself! Christ affirms and proclaims the spiritual capacity of children.
How sobering, then, are Jesus' words, "do not hinder them." The Talmud says, "A child tells in the street what its father and mother say at home." What are children learning in our homes and in our churches?
Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." The word translated "not" is very strong. New Testament scholar William Lane comments: "The solemn pronouncement is directed at the disciples, but has pertinence for all men confronted by the gospel because it speaks of the condition for entrance into the Kingdom of God." No one will get into the Kingdom of God unless he or she receives God's salvation like a child—no one! How are we to understand and apply this?
For starters, coming as a "child" does not infer innocence. Any two-year-old dispels such a notion! Neither does "like a child" suggest the wondrous subjective states we often find in children such as trustfulness, receptivity, simplicity, or wonder, beautiful as these are.
What Jesus has in mind here is an objective state that every child who has ever lived, regardless of race, culture, or background, has experienced—helpless dependence.
Every single child in the world is absolutely, completely, totally, objectively, subjectively, existentially helpless! And so it is with every child who is born into the kingdom of God. Children of the kingdom enter it helpless, ones for whom everything must be done.
The realization that one is as helpless as a child naturally fosters humility. Jesus gave reference to this connection when, in a similar but separate statement, he said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 18:3-4).
Do you desire to be held in Christ's arms, to hear him pronounce blessings over you? Eternity will reveal that is all we ever wanted, and our Spirit-given response is, "Dearest Father"–"Abba! Father!" (cf. Romans 8:15; Galatians 4:6). Kent Hughes
Conclusion: Children are blessings not dirty rotten little sinful babies. Why didn't Jesus say children were sinners but instead insisted adults become like children ?
And more scripture from Jesus
Matthew 18:2-5
And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven
Matthew 18:10
“See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 18:14
So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.
Matthew 19:13-14
Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.
Mark 9:36-37
Taking a child, He set him before them, and taking him in His arms, He said to them, “Whoever receives one child like this in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me does not receive Me, but Him who sent Me.”
Mark 10:13-16
And they were bringing children to Him so that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, “Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.
Luke 9:47-48
But Jesus, knowing what they were thinking in their heart, took a child and stood him by His side, and said to them, “Whoever receives this child in My name receives Me, and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me; for the one who is least among all of you, this is the one who is great.”
Luke 18:15-17
And they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He would touch them, but when the disciples saw it, they began rebuking them. But Jesus called for them, saying, “Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”
hope this helps !!!
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
Some would change Jesus loves all the children song to the following
Jesus hates them this I know, For the Bible tells me so. Little ones to Him dont belong, They are weak dirty little rotten sinners but He is strong. Yes, Jesus hates me, Yes, Jesus hates them, Yes, Jesus hates them, The Bible tells me so.
Jesus hates the little children, All the children of the world; Red and yellow, black and white, They are despicable dirty rotten totally depraved little sinners in His sight, Jesus hates the little children of the world.
hope this helps !!!
Jesus hates them this I know, For the Bible tells me so. Little ones to Him dont belong, They are weak dirty little rotten sinners but He is strong. Yes, Jesus hates me, Yes, Jesus hates them, Yes, Jesus hates them, The Bible tells me so.
Jesus hates the little children, All the children of the world; Red and yellow, black and white, They are despicable dirty rotten totally depraved little sinners in His sight, Jesus hates the little children of the world.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
how can an infant understand, turn away, practice deceit, curse, shed blood, fear God or know the way of peace ????
just more proof texting ignoring the " CONTEXT : once again trying to prove TD with this "prooftexting" and ripping it from its biblical context in Romans 3.
Romans 3- the Context
There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”[b]
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”[c]
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[d]
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”[e]
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”[f]
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes
conclusion : it has nothing whatsoever to do with children who are innocent of sin.
just more proof texting ignoring the " CONTEXT : once again trying to prove TD with this "prooftexting" and ripping it from its biblical context in Romans 3.
Romans 3- the Context
There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”[b]
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”[c]
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[d]
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”[e]
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”[f]
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes
conclusion : it has nothing whatsoever to do with children who are innocent of sin.
Johann
Well-known member
I am referring to the condition of the heart from birth and not committing acts of sin.
Huge difference.
J.
civic
Well-known member
there is no condition of the heart in children who do not know or understand right from wrong.
I gave plenty of Jesus teaching on little children and none of them say they are sinners in fact Jesus says just the opposite.
atpollard
Well-known member
Even Classic Arminianism acknowledges the Biblical Truth … it is what God does to fix it that we “biblicist” disagree on the details.
atpollard
Well-known member
Technically, if someone never did wrong, that is not enough to earn passage into heaven. The “Greatest Commandments” are about what one must DO to be righteous, not merely what one must avoid. As an illustration, Jesus said that it was not enough to merely “not murder”, you must “love your enemies”.
The baby has not committed murder, but it has not obeyed the commands needed to be perfect. Thus it needs a savior as much as any other human.
Fortunately, Romans 9:15-16 applies to babies, too.
[NLT] For God said to Moses, "I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose." So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.
brightfame52
Well-known member
The atonement is limited to the little children, the elect. Heb 2:13-14
And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
civic
Well-known member
Tell that to Jesus you need to correct His teaching, I'm just agreeing with Him.
Matthew 18:2-5
And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven
Matthew 18:10
“See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 18:14
So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.
Matthew 19:13-14
Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.
Mark 9:36-37
Taking a child, He set him before them, and taking him in His arms, He said to them, “Whoever receives one child like this in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me does not receive Me, but Him who sent Me.”
Mark 10:13-16
And they were bringing children to Him so that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, “Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.
Luke 9:47-48
But Jesus, knowing what they were thinking in their heart, took a child and stood him by His side, and said to them, “Whoever receives this child in My name receives Me, and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me; for the one who is least among all of you, this is the one who is great.”
Luke 18:15-17
And they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He would touch them, but when the disciples saw it, they began rebuking them. But Jesus called for them, saying, “Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”
Johann
Well-known member
It is apparent you have not read a word what was posted and can give you more scriptures should you wish. Making an appeal to emotional fallacy is not going to work with me.
The Biblical Basis for a Sin Nature in Infants
A. Old Testament Evidence (Hebrew)
Psalm 51:5 –
הֵן־בְּעָוֹ֥ון חֹולָ֑לְתִּי וּ֝בְחֵ֗טְא יֶחֱמַ֥תְנִי אִמִּֽי׃
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."
Morphology & Syntax:
בְּעָוֹ֥ון (be'awon) – preposition "in" + noun ʿāwōn (S# H5771, "iniquity," often meaning guilt or punishment for sin).
חֹולָ֑לְתִּי (cholalti) – verb ḥûl (S# H2342, "to writhe, travail, be born").
בְחֵ֗טְא (bechet’) – preposition "in" + noun ḥēṭ (S# H2403, "sin, offense").
Analysis: The prepositions be' ("in") indicate that sinfulness is inherent from conception. David is not merely speaking of his mother’s sin but his own condition.
Job 14:4 –
מִי־יִתֵּ֣ן טָהֹ֣ור מִטָּמֵ֑א לֹֽא־אֶחָֽד׃
"Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one."
Morphology & Syntax:
טָהֹ֣ור (ṭāhôr, S# H2889) – "pure, clean."
מִטָּמֵ֑א (mitṭāmē’, S# H2931) – "unclean, defiled."
Analysis: This implies that impurity is inherited; no one is naturally born pure.
Genesis 8:21 –
"The inclination (יֵצֶר, yetzer, S# H3336) of man's heart is evil from his youth."
The word yetzer denotes an inner inclination, paralleling the later rabbinic yetzer hara’ (evil inclination).
B. New Testament Evidence (Greek)
Romans 5:12 –
Διὰ τοῦτο ὥσπερ δι’ ἑνὸς ἀνθρώπου ἡ ἁμαρτία εἰς τὸν κόσμον εἰσῆλθεν, καὶ διὰ τῆς ἁμαρτίας ὁ θάνατος, καὶ οὕτως εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους ὁ θάνατος διῆλθεν, ἐφ’ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον.
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned."
Morphology & Syntax:
ἁμαρτία (hamartia, S# G266) – "sin" (here in singular, denoting the power of sin rather than individual acts).
εἰσῆλθεν (eisēlthen, aorist active indicative) – "entered" (past completed action).
διῆλθεν (diēlthen, aorist active indicative) – "spread" (universal consequence).
Analysis: Sin and death entered through Adam and spread universally, implying an inherited sin nature.
Ephesians 2:3 –
ἐν οἷς καὶ ἡμεῖς πάντες ἀνεστράφημέν ποτε ἐν ταῖς ἐπιθυμίαις τῆς σαρκὸς ἡμῶν, ποιοῦντες τὰ θελήματα τῆς σαρκὸς καὶ τῶν διανοιῶν, καὶ ἤμεθα τέκνα φύσει ὀργῆς, ὡς καὶ οἱ λοιποί.
"Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature (φύσει, physei, S# G5449) children of wrath, even as the rest."
Morphology & Syntax:
φύσει (physei) – dative singular of physis ("nature," referring to inherent quality).
Analysis: Humans are by nature under God's wrath, suggesting an innate sinful condition.
2. Early Jewish and Christian Writings (Pre-Augustine)
4 Ezra 7:92 (Apocrypha, 1st century AD) – "The first Adam, bearing a wicked heart, transgressed and was overcome; so also all those who are born from him suffer the same fate."
Dead Sea Scrolls (1QS 3:13-14) – "From the womb, all men are born into sin."
Irenaeus (Against Heresies, 2nd century) – "For inasmuch as all are guilty of original sin, they are under the power of the devil."
Tertullian (On the Soul, 2nd century) – "The soul of Adam passed on its taint to his posterity."
3. Rebutting Common Objections
A. Sin Nature Is Just a Tendency, Not an Inherited State
Romans 3:23 – "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
Psalm 58:3 – "The wicked are estranged from the womb."
Genesis 6:5 – "Every inclination of the heart was only evil continually."
B. Infants Are Morally Neutral Until They Sin
Job 25:4 – "How can he who is born of woman be pure?"
Romans 5:19 – "Through the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners."
C. Sin Is Only Imitated, Not Inherited
Romans 5:12-14 – Sin entered through one man, and death reigned even over those who had not sinned in the same manner as Adam.
1 Corinthians 15:22 – "As in Adam all die."
Conclusion
The biblical evidence, combined with linguistic, exegetical, and historical data, strongly supports the doctrine that infants are born with a sin nature, meaning they inherit a disposition toward sin from Adam. This does not mean infants are guilty of personal sin, but rather that their nature is inherently fallen. This is seen in passages like Psalm 51:5, Romans 5:12, and Ephesians 2:3, as well as early Jewish and Christian writings.
The concept of an inherited sin nature predates Augustine, appearing in 2nd Temple Jewish literature and early Church Fathers.
You can crucify me @civic but I stand on God's word, as it stands written.
You have to reread church history and not blame it all on Augustine since I have writings that predates Augustine.
J.
atpollard
Well-known member
Does this teach that “Abortion Doctors are the greatest evangelists that ever lived” or that “the saved should be humble (fully trusting and utterly dependent like an infant)”?
atpollard
Well-known member
You should reread those verses closer, they do not say “all babies go to heaven”.
civic
Well-known member
no the dr that talks them out of an abortion not the one that murders an infant.
atpollard
Well-known member
The murdered infant remains “sinless” (according to your POV), but the infant that survives, grows up to sin and “few” find the narrow path.
As a monergist, I place it all at the feet and in the hands of God (infant, adult, old age … makes no difference: Romans 9:15-16 applies to all of them)
Dizerner
Well-known member
Infant baptism and the sin nature were doctrines long before the invention of Calvinism.
Please research instead of parroting lies from YouTubers.
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