brightfame52
Well-known member
Who does Jesus say Hears the Words of God ? Jn 8:47
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
The "hearing" game that Calvinists play
- Thread starter praise_yeshua
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47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Nothing there states you have to be unconditionally selected to be of God
You continue assuming your theology
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You just keep repeating yourself. John 12 explained who these people were and why they didn't heed what Jesus said. They most certainly heard Jesus. They got angry because of Jesus said because they heard what Jesus said.
You need to understand that Jesus wasn't speaking in English....
Not that you will deal with this. You will just keep repeating yourself like a little child insisting their parents are wrong. You wouldn't of listened Jesus either. The disciples even rejected Christ and left Him alone.
It is amazing how little you're actually willing to repeat what Jesus said.
Indeed !
brightfame52
Well-known member
All that talking, who does Jesus say hears the word of God ?
Jn 8:47
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Again nothing in the passage states you have to be unconditionally selected to be of God
You are begging the question and assuming your theology
brightfame52
Well-known member
who does Jesus say hears the word of God ?
Jn 8:47
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Do all have the ability ot hear the word of God according to Jesus here ? Jn 8:43
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Understand - Know, have insight, or perceive Hear - Hear with understanding Jesus asks a simple question and then proceeds to answer it. He asks them why do they not understand the things which He is saying? Then He gives the answer. It is because they cannot hear Him, not physical hearing, but spiritual hearing. They are unsaved and do not have the ability to understand spiritual things. (1 Cor 2:14 KJV) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. They had thought that their education level would give them all the insight they had needed and no one could teach them a thing and this is the problem with those who serve the education god. Too many think they have superlative knowledge and that everyone else is beneath them. These Jews could hear the words being spoken but because of the fact they were unsaved could not understand the meanings.
still no evidence one must be unconditional selected to be of God
You continue to beg the question
Those who believe God will believe jesus that is what one gets from the passage
that one must be unconditionally selected to be of God is nowhere to be found
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
And since ALL PEOPLE in the Old Testament were "Spiritually DEAD", how did THEY HEAR???
brightfame52
Well-known member
who does Jesus say hears the word of God ?
Jn 8:47
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Do all have the ability to hear the word of God according to Jesus here ? Jn 8:43
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Understand - Know, have insight, or perceive Hear - Hear with understanding Jesus asks a simple question and then proceeds to answer it. He asks them why do they not understand the things which He is saying? Then He gives the answer. It is because they cannot hear Him, not physical hearing, but spiritual hearing. They are unsaved and do not have the ability to understand spiritual things. (1 Cor 2:14 KJV) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. They had thought that their education level would give them all the insight they had needed and no one could teach them a thing and this is the problem with those who serve the education god. Too many think they have superlative knowledge and that everyone else is beneath them. These Jews could hear the words being spoken but because of the fact they were unsaved could not understand the meanings.
John 8:41-45
Repeating yourself does not change the facts
still no evidence one must be unconditional selected to be of God
You continue to beg the question
Those who believe God will believe jesus that is what one gets from the passage
that one must be unconditionally selected to be of God is nowhere to be found
brightfame52
Well-known member
who does Jesus say hears the word of God ?
Jn 8:47
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Do all have the ability to hear the word of God according to Jesus here ? Jn 8:43
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
still no evidence one must be unconditional selected to be of God
You continue to beg the question
Those who believe God will believe jesus that is what one gets from the passage
that one must be unconditionally selected to be of God is nowhere to be found
They could not hear Christs word because they did not believe God
brightfame52
Well-known member
@TomL
They didnt Believe God Because they were not of God,
One must be of God to hear Gods word Jn 8:47
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
If you not of God you cant hear Jn 8:43
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
They didnt Believe God Because they were not of God,
One must be of God to hear Gods word Jn 8:47
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
If you not of God you cant hear Jn 8:43
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
They were not of God because they did not believe his word
Those who believe his word are of God
nothing there about any need to be unconditionally selected to be of God
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
All you did was swap the order that appears in scripture. I see people do that all the time, like with this:
Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
In a feat of mental gymnastics, they say this means they were appointed to eternal life because they believed, when it clearly says they believed because they were appointed to eternal life.
Um
I have listed a number of ways that verse may be understood without necessitating Calvinism
If you are interested you can look them up but nothing in the verse states they were unconditionally appointed to eternal
that has to be assumed
in any case there is nothing in john 8 which states you have to be unconditionally selected to be of God
Jesus whole argument against the jews was they did not believe God and contrary to their view that God was their father Jesus argued they were not of God
brightfame52
Well-known member
Nobody by nature believes God, all men by nature are unbelievers, imprisoned in unbelief Rom 11:32
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Jesus tells us who it is that hears/believes God Jn 8:47
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
How can a person not of God believe God ? Duh
Sorry Rom 11:32 does not teach what you think
Romans 11:32 (NASB 2020) — 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all.
Read the context
Romans 11:17–23 (NASB 2020) — 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.
Whether they believe or not resides with them
Sorry i did no such thing
I noted elsewhere there are multiple assumptions which must be made before this verse can support Calvinism
The first is there is nothing there about unconditionality. Arminians will argue based upon forseen faith
This expresses the Pauline and Apostolic doctrine of predestination, according to which God desires the salvation of all men (1 Tim. 2:4; 4:10, etc.), but insomuch as He foresees that some (in the exercise of their free will) will actually repent and believe, while others will refuse to do so, He ordains the former to eternal life, and the latter to eternal death (Rom. 8:28–30, etc.).1
1 Charles W. Carter, “The Acts of the Apostles,” in Matthew-Acts (vol. 4; The Wesleyan Bible Commentary; Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1966), 4572.
LUKE LEAVES OUT THE RELATIONSHIP OF BEING ORDAINED TO FREE SELF DETERMINATION. ALTHOUGH VERSE 46 SEEMS TO TESTIFY AGAINST AN ABSOLUTE DECREE. THEY REJECTED GOD’S WILL FOR THEMSELVES MAY IT BE THAT ORDINATION IS A RESULT OF GOD’S FOREKNOWLEDGE.
second one must presuppose a correct translation of Tasso which does not mean to preordain or predetermine or predestine. It may mean to set in order appoint, dispose or incline
depending on the meaning it may or may not support Calvinism
In that regard it must be compared to the reaction of the Jews who rejected eternal life for themselves.Therefore, even the Calvinist Greek scholar Robertson notes
A. T. Robertson’s comment is helpful (Word Pictures. 3,200): "They rejected the word of God. On the other side were those Gentiles who gladly accepted what the Jews had rejected the word of God. On the other side were those Gentiles who gladly accepted what the Jews had rejected, not all the Gentiles. Why these Gentiles here ranged themselves on God’s side as opposed to the Jews Luke does not tell us. This verse does not solve the vexing problem of divine sovereignty and human free agency. There is no evidence that Luke had in mind an absolutum decretum of personal salvation. Paul had shown that God’s plan extended to and included Gentiles. Certainly the Spirit of God does move upon the human heart to which some respond, as here, while others push him away." See also John Wesley, Notes, in loco. God, Man, & Salvation, by W. T. Purkiser, Richard S. Taylor, Willard H. Taylor,
The question is this: how can this be reconciled with the Arminian (non-Calvinist) view? The key lies in the form of the main Greek verb, tassō. The basic meaning of this verb is “to place, to order, to appoint, to ordain, to determine, to arrange in order.” As it appears in this text, the verb form is the participle tetagmenoi. It is simply assumed that this is the PASSIVE form of the verb, thus: “to be appointed, to be ordained, to be destined.” What is often forgotten is that in the Greek language, often the passive and the middle form of verbs are spelled exactly the same way. That is the case here. The word tetagmenoi can also be the MIDDLE form of the verb. Here is the main point: that is how it should be understood in Acts 13:48.
What does this verse mean, then? The middle voice of a verb in Greek is sometimes used in a reflexive sense. The idea is that the action of the verb is something performed by the subject (not by someone else upon the subject), but in such a way that the action is directed back toward the subject or the self. Understanding that the verb means “to place, to set, to arrange in a certain order or position,” we can see that the statement in 13:48 can quite validly be taken thus: “As many as arranged themselves unto (eis) eternal life believed,” or “As many as turned themselves toward eternal life believed,” or “As many as disposed themselves toward eternal life believed.”
Why should we accept this approach to the verb—i.e., as middle voice rather than passive? For two reasons. First, it agrees with the general overall teaching of Scripture, that turning toward God is a matter of free will and personal responsibility, not something unconditionally and irresistibly caused by God.
Second, this agrees with the context, where the Jews’ response to the gospel is being contrasted with that of the Gentiles. In Acts 13:13-41 Paul preached a powerful Sabbath sermon in the Jews’ synagogue at Antioch. Many of the Jews were so impressed that they asked for an encore the next Sabbath (vv. 42-43). Then on “the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord” (v. 44). This crowd obviously included many Gentiles, because “when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him” (v. 45). This provoked Paul and Barnabas to speak this judgment upon the Jews: “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles” (v. 46). This verse is important because it shows that the exclusion of the Jews from the ranks of the saved was their own choice, not the result of some predestining activity of God. The Jews specifically judged themselves unworthy of eternal life.
This is exactly the opposite of the Gentiles’ reaction, especially when Paul and Barnabas applied Isaiah 49:6 to themselves: “I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth” (v. 47). Verse 48 then describes the reaction of the Gentiles to this preaching. It was in fact just the opposite of the Jews’ reaction: “And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord.” Then follow the crucial words: and as many as set themselves toward eternal life believed. How did they set themselves toward eternal life? By hearing and heeding the word of God (see Rom. 10:17).
We cannot ignore the symmetrical contrast between the reaction of the Jews in v. 46 and the reaction of the Gentiles in v. 48. Whereas the Jews rejected the gospel and judged themselves to be unworthy of eternal life (v. 46), the Gentiles received it gladly and embraced the message of eternal life (v. 48). In both cases the decision was a matter of free choice. There is no support for Calvinism in v. 48. Jack Cottrell Acts 13:48 and Calvinism
8. τεταγμένοι] The meaning of this word must be determined by the context. The Jews had judged themselves unworthy of eternal life: the Gentiles, as many as were disposed to eternal life, believed. By whom so disposed, is not here declared: nor need the word be in this place further particularized. We know, that it is God who worketh in us the will to believe, and that the preparation of the heart is of Him: but to find in this text pre-ordination to life asserted, is to force both the word and the context to a meaning which they do not contain. The key to the word here is the comparison of ref. 1 Cor. εἰς διακονίαν τοῖς ἁγίοις ἔταξαν ἑαυτούς, with ref. Rom. αἱ οὖσαι (ἐξουσίαι) ὑπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ τεταγμέναι εἰσίν: in both of which places the agents are expressed, whereas here the word is absolute. See also ch. 20:13. The principal interpretations are: (1) Calvin, &c., who find here predestination in the strongest sense: ‘orainatio ista nonnisi ad æternum Dei consilium potest referri’ … ‘ridiculum autem cavillum est referre hoc ad credentium affectum, quasi Evangelium receperint qui animis rite dispositi erant.’ So the Vulgate, ‘præordinati:’ and Aug. ‘destinati: (2) ‘Qui juxta ordinem a Deo institutum dispositi erant’ (Franz, Calov.: but not Bengel (as De W.), who explains it as I have done above): (3) ‘Quibus, dum fidem doctrinæ habebant, certa erat vita beata’ (Morus, Kuinoel): (4) ‘Qui ad vitam æternam se ordinarant’ (Grot., Limborch, Wolf, al.): (5) ‘Quotquot erant dispositi, applicati, i.e. apti facti oratione Pauli ad vitam æt. adipiscendam’ A(Bretschneider): (6) taking τετ. militari sensu, ‘Qui de agmine et classe erant sperantium vel contendentium ad v. æ.’ (Mede, and similarly Schöttg.) There are several other renderings, but so forced as to be mere caricatures of exegesis: see Meyer. It may be worth while to protest against all attempts to join ἐπίστευσαν with εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον, which usage will not bear. Wordsworth well observes that it would be interesting to enquire what influence such renderings as this of præordinati in the Vulgate version had on the minds of men like St. Augustine and his followers in the Western Church in treating the great questions of free will, election, reprobation, and final perseverance: and on some writers in the reformed churches who, though rejecting the authority of that version, were yet swayed by it away from the sense of the original here and in ch. 2:47. The tendency of the Eastern Fathers, who read the original Greek, was, he remarks, in a different direction from that of the Western School. AlfordGNT
tetagmenos (grk 5021) mean? The verb tattoo or tassoo (grk 5021) signifies to place, set, order, appoint, dispose; hence, it has been considered here as implying the disposition or readiness of mind of several persons in the congregation, such as the religious proselytes mentioned <Acts 13:43>, who possessed the reverse of the disposition of those Jews who spake against those things, contradicting and blaspheming, <Acts 13:45> Though the word in this place has been variously translated, yet, of all the meanings ever put on it, none agrees worse with its nature and known signification than that which represents it as intending those who were predestinated to eternal life: this is no meaning of the term, and should never be applied to it. Let us, without prejudice, consider the scope of the place: the Jews contradicted and blasphemed; the religious proselytes heard attentively, and received the word of life: the one party were utterly indisposed, through their own stubbornness, to receive the Gospel; the others, destitute of prejudice and prepossession, were glad to hear that, in the order of God, the Gentiles were included in the covenant of salvation through Christ Jesus; they, therefore, in this good state and order of mind, believed. Those who seek for the plain meaning of the word will find it here; those who wish to make out a sense, not from the Greek word, its use among the best Greek writers, and the obvious sense of the evangelist, but from their own creed, may continue to puzzle themselves and others; kindle their own fire, compass themselves with sparks, and walk in the light of their own fire, and of the sparks which they have kindled; and, in consequence, lie down in sorrow, having bidden adieu to the true meaning of a passage so very simple, taken in its connection, that one must wonder how it ever came to be misunderstood and misapplied. Those who wish to see more on this verse may consult Hammond, Whitby, Schoettgen, Rosenmuller, Pearce, Sir Norton Knatchbull, and Dodd. (from Adam Clarke Commentary)
3 These gentiles were jewish proselytes
The “had been appointed to eternal life” or the “appointment to eternal life” had occurred before they heard and believed the gospel that was presented by Paul and Barnabas. However, the wording does not require that this appointment to eternal life must be a reference to eternity past. I think what the verse is telling us is that all of those who had been saved prior to their hearing the New Testament gospel subsequently believed when they heard the gospel being presented by Paul and Barnabas. At the moment of their salvation in the past, they were appointed to eternal life. When they heard about the redemptive work of Jesus the Messiah, they believed and became New Testament believers.
Pinson, J. Matthew; Forlines, F. Leroy. Classical Arminianism. The Theology of Salvation (Kindle Locations 3138-3143). Ingram Distribution. Kindle Edition.
etc
