The Doctrine of Imminence

[DavidTree]

If one assumes the great tribulation is exactly 3.5 years, then yes, you could know when Jesus will return once the man of sin is revealed. But Jesus said He will cut short the great tribulation. He never tells us how short. So we may know that His return is functionally "imminent" once the man of sin is revealed and the great tribulation starts, but we still don't know the day or hour.

God has not given us the exact beginning/starting point/day & hour of the "revealing of the man of sin".
Which we will not know the EXACT TIME this will occur.
So when it does occur we will only know that it is HERE but we will not know EXACTLY to the day & hour as when it began.

Added to this is that JESUS will shorten those days guarantees that no one will know the exact day or hour!

So you have TWO ambiguous Points in Time = a hidden Start and a hidden End = impossible to know the exact day & hour

So we WATCH and we make sure we are READY = but DO NOT look for a lying prophecy of pre-trib rapture

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

God has not given us the exact beginning/starting point/day & hour of the "revealing of the man of sin".

I didn't say God did. But we know that the revealing of the man of sin precedes the Day of the Lord's wrath, which is the time Jesus returns. And if you believe the revelation of the man of sin occurs in the midst of a 7-year period, then you know that there's only 3.5 years left for Jesus to return. We don't know when, since the great tribulation is cut short, but sometime within 3.5 years.

Having said that, I don't think Daniel's 70th week is a future event. I think that has already been fulfilled. But there may also be another 7 year future period, just not the 70th week. That's just my speculation. If it turns out some other way, we'll find out eventually.

 

[Complete]

The doctrine of imminence is the notion that Jesus could return at any moment, since we do not know the day or hour of His return. I personally believe this doctrine to be false.​

'Repent ye therefore, and be converted,
.. that your sins may be blotted out,
.... when the times of refreshing shall come
...... from the presence of the Lord;
And He shall send Jesus Christ,
.. Which before was preached unto you:
.... Whom the heaven must receive
...... until the times of restitution of all things,
which God hath spoken
by the mouth of all His holy prophets
since the world began.'
(Act 3:19)

Hello @The Rogue Tomato,

In the early epistles of Paul, the reader is conscious of the sense of immediacy that existed in the minds of the believers of that day that Christ would return soon. They believed that the nation of Israel would come to repentance, following God's words spoken by Peter (above) and that God would send the risen Christ to the earth once more as promised. But Israel did not come to repentance at that time, that now awaits a future day.

* What the members of the Church which is the Body of Christ, (which was created following Israel's final departure into the blindness of unbelief at the end of the Acts period), now look for, is the appearing in glory, of Christ Jesus their Head, in the sure expectation that they will appear with Him there.

'When Christ, who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.'
(Col 3:4)

'Henceforth there is laid up for me (Paul) a crown of righteousness,
which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day:
and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing.'
(2Tim.4:8)

'Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing
of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;'
(Titus 2:13)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

(PS: See Acts 28, Romans 5:12-8:39, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon.)

 

[civic]

Parousia

Matthew 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24:27
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:37
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:39
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

1 Corinthians 15:23
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Thessalonians 2:19
19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

1 Thessalonians 3:13
13 To the end he may establish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:1
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming


James 5:7
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord.

James 5:8
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

2 Peter 1:16
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

2 Peter 3:4
4 And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

1 John 2:28-29
28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.



Epiphenia


2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

1 Timothy 6:14
14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Timothy 1:10
10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus,

2 Timothy 4:1
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

2 Timothy 4:8
8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Titus 2:13
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,



conclusion: His Coming, 2nd Coming, Return, Appearing/Appearance are one in the same event. 2 Thessalonians 2:8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance (Epiphenia)of His coming; ( parousia )

hope this helps !!!

 

[Complete]

Parousia​

Matthew 24:3​

Matthew 24:27​

Matthew 24:37​

Matthew 24:3​

1 Corinthians 15:23​

1 Thessalonians 2:19​

1 Thessalonians 3:13​

1 Thessalonians 4:15​

1 Thessalonians 5:23​

2 Thessalonians 2:1​

2 Thessalonians 2:8​

James 5:7-8​

2 Peter 1:16​

2 Peter 3:4​

1 John 2:28-29​

G3952 (παρουσία) - parousia (par-oo-see'-ah)
From the present participle of G3918;
i.e., a being near, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ) physical aspect,
Translated: - coming, presence.
Total KJV occurrences: 24

Epiphenia ​

2 Thessalonians 2:8​

1 Timothy 6:14​

2 Timothy 1:10​

2 Timothy 4:1​

2 Timothy 4:8​

Titus 2:13​

G2015 (ἐπιφάνεια) - epiphaneia - (ep-if-an'-i-ah)
From G2016;
i.e., a manifestation, that is, (specifically) the advent of Christ (past or future)
Translated: - appearing, brightness.
Total KJV occurrences: 6

conclusion: His Coming, 2nd Coming, Return, Appearing/Appearance are one in the same event. 2 Thessalonians 2:8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance (Epiphenia)of His coming; ( parousia )

Hello @civic,

In the one occurrence of the word Epiphaneia before Acts 28, 'His coming or parousia' is the subject and in this passage 'brightness' or epiphaneia but qualifies that 'coming', whereas after Acts 28 parousia is dropped and 'the appearing' is used of the first phase of the Second coming, a phase that belongs to things above where Christ sits on the right hand of God., and not to the second sphere which is associated with the Archangel and the air.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[civic]

G3952 (παρουσία) - parousia (par-oo-see'-ah)
From the present participle of G3918;
i.e., a being near, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ) physical aspect,
Translated: - coming, presence.
Total KJV occurrences: 24

G2015 (ἐπιφάνεια) - epiphaneia - (ep-if-an'-i-ah)
From G2016;
i.e., a manifestation, that is, (specifically) the advent of Christ (past or future)
Translated: - appearing, brightness.
Total KJV occurrences: 6

Hello @civic,

In the one occurrence of the word Epiphaneia before Acts 28, 'His coming or parousia' is the subject and in this passage 'brightness' or epiphaneia but qualifies that 'coming', whereas after Acts 28 parousia is dropped and 'the appearing' is used of the first phase of the Second coming, a phase that belongs to things above where Christ sits on the right hand of God., and not to the second sphere which is associated with the Archangel and the air.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Paul combines them both as a single event in 2 Thessalonians 2:8. which comes after Acts 28.

All I'm doing is pointing out the biblical facts and not a doctrinal position regarding any rapture or coming that is different from His 2nd Advent or Return/Appearing ( parousia,epiphenia) in 2 Thess 2:8. There its clearly one in the same event. There are used as synonyms.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Complete]

'And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
whom the Lord shall consume
with the spirit of His mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness (epiphaneia) of His coming (parousia):'
(2Thess. 2:8)

 

[Bob Carabbio]

AFBA = Actual factual biblical accounting = 1st & 2nd Thessalonians

IBJW - i believe Jesus words = Matt 4:4

Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Yup That's the scriptures that we USED TO USE to "Prove Biblically" that the "Rapture" would be in 1978. after all we have 88 Biblical reasons why the "Rapture" will happen during the "Feast of Trumpets" in 1988. I can barely wait!!!

So why would you make up two new abbreviations???? Do you think it makes you sound more "Authoritative????

 

[DavidTree]

Yup That's the scriptures that we USED TO USE to "Prove Biblically" that the "Rapture" would be in 1978. after all we have 88 Biblical reasons why the "Rapture" will happen during the "Feast of Trumpets" in 1988. I can barely wait!!!

So why would you make up two new abbreviations???? Do you think it makes you sound more "Authoritative????

@Bob Carabbio says: "

So why would you make up two new abbreviations???? Do you think it makes you sound more "Authoritative????

LOLx100 on that comment - thank you Bob

Well, at least you admit to your mistakes!

 

[Bob Carabbio]

@Bob Carabbio says: "


LOLx100 on that comment - thank you Bob

Well, at least you admit to your mistakes!

No reason not to - "Eschatology" is nothing more that a "Religious term" for "Rank Speculation".

Remember the "End Times Teachers" that used to come into churches with their platform wide charts, and tell us exactly what was gonna happen???

BUT HEY!!! The Roman Catholics these days are "scaring themselves" with the "THREE DAYS OF DARKNESS" (prophesied by the "Blessed Virgin", and "Padre Pio" with his "stigmata" so you KNOW it's gotta be true) WARNING: you have to cover ALL your windows, and stay inside (Because you'll DIE if you go out!!!), and you have to have "Blessed Beeswax Candles" in order to have and light at all!!!. HOWEVER for $89 you CAN buy a "Three Days of Darkness travel kit" with everything you'll need to survive!! Such a deal. I should probably get several - just in case!!!

 

[DavidTree]

No reason not to - "Eschatology" is nothing more that a "Religious term" for "Rank Speculation".

Remember the "End Times Teachers" that used to come into churches with their platform wide charts, and tell us exactly what was gonna happen???

BUT HEY!!! The Roman Catholics these days are "scaring themselves" with the "THREE DAYS OF DARKNESS" (prophesied by the "Blessed Virgin", and "Padre Pio" with his "stigmata" so you KNOW it's gotta be true) WARNING: you have to cover ALL your windows, and stay inside (Because you'll DIE if you go out!!!), and you have to have "Blessed Beeswax Candles" in order to have and light at all!!!. HOWEVER for $89 you CAN buy a "Three Days of Darkness travel kit" with everything you'll need to survive!! Such a deal. I should probably get several - just in case!!!

Excellent Post Bob

i never followed the pre-fibbers and their charts

What i have ALWAYS done, and still do, is the Berean Dance!

 

[Ezra]

The doctrine of imminence is the notion that Jesus could return at any moment, since we do not know the day or hour of His return. I personally believe this doctrine to be false. IMO,

it might be iyo but no man knows the hour or day.. so yes it can be at anytime. its at our heavenly fathers beckon call . when He tells Christ go get my children it will happen . the Biggest problem with end time studies is man i h o . my motto is just be ready he will come as a thief in the night . just another doctrinal argument to add fuel to the fire

 

[Ezra]

quit trying to predict when he will come . and start telling folks he is coming again be ready . i do like David jeremiahs teaching and feel he is pretty close. but however he is just a man

 

[DavidTree]

quit trying to predict when he will come . and start telling folks he is coming again be ready . i do like David jeremiahs teaching and feel he is pretty close. but however he is just a man

David Jeremiah is in great error as is all the modern day preachers of 'pre-trib' rapture.

Follow the teachings of Christ and the Apostles = Matthew ch24 , 1st & 2nd Thessalonians , OT Prophet Daniel

Popularity of doctrine does not equate to Truth if it denies the Truth.

 

[Ezra]

David Jeremiah is in great error as is all the modern day preachers of 'pre-trib' rapture.

Follow the teachings of Christ and the Apostles = Matthew ch24 , 1st & 2nd Thessalonians , OT Prophet Daniel

Popularity of doctrine does not equate to Truth if it denies the Truth.

no what makes him in error is the fact due to YOUR opinion of you reject pre trib .. i reject trib rapture but i find some parts i agree but to say in great error your wrong

Popularity of doctrine does not equate to Truth if it denies the Truth.

once again this is iyo of truth

 

[Ezra]

Follow the teachings of Christ and the Apostles = Matthew ch24

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

dont get any plainer than this ye know NOT what hour

 

[civic]

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

dont get any plainer than this ye know NOT what hour

Yes it’s imminent

 

[DavidTree]

no what makes him in error is the fact due to YOUR opinion of you reject pre trib .. i reject trib rapture but i find some parts i agree but to say in great error your wrong



once again this is iyo of truth

Do you believe the words of Christ who said that pre-trib rapture is a lie?

Jesus answered them, “Do you now believe? Indeed the hour is coming, yes, has now come, that you will be scattered, each to his [e]own, and will leave Me alone. And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Have you ever searched the scriptures to see if there is even one declaration of a 'pre-trib' rapture?

The apostles also spoke against the falsehood of pre-trib rapture = 1 Thess 3:1-5
Therefore, when we could no longer endure it, we thought it good to be left in Athens alone, and sent Timothy, our brother and minister of God, and our fellow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you and encourage you concerning your faith, that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this. For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know. For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain.

The Apostle Paul asks you this: "Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?

 

[DavidTree]

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

dont get any plainer than this ye know NOT what hour

i AGREE with your Post here = it has ALL TRUTH with no pre-trib rapture declarations.

Last year i prophesied by the Holy Spirit that there will be no pre-trib rapture in 2023.

The Holy Spirit encouraged me to speak this because of the false doctrine of pre-trib rapture.

It was TRUTH in 2023 and it is TRUTH for 2024 as well.

No one knows what day or hour the LORD will Return = TRUTH

The Day of His Second Coming will not come until the falling away/apostacy comes first and the man of sin is revealed = TRUTH

Peace in the LORD Jesus Christ

 

[Ezra]

Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you,

Hold up it does and yes Christ says deliver you up to tribulation But it does not say pre trib nor does it say he returns after trib, your making it say what you want. BTW in another forum i had the debate with a admin. when i stood my ground nose to nose . not long after that i got booted reason i argued to much ..


all i am telling you the word pre trib or returns at the end of the 7 year trib is not there once again be ready

The Apostle Paul asks you this: "Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?

whose truth are you telling yours ? if we was to bring bro Jeremiah in the forum. he would post scripture contrary to yours. you seem to have a problem with just be ready...... how do we become ready? if your truly Born again living for Christ YOUR READY .. so please dont try to play the hero i am the villian in error by quoting paul
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? lets not go there