The Doctrine of Imminence

[DavP]

We know the 2nd coming is a single day, because Jesus said that it would be just like the days of Noah, when the flood came on a particular day:
"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the the floodgates of the sky were opened. ... On the very same day Noah and Shem and Ham and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife and the three wives of his sons with them, entered the ark, ..." Genesis 7:11,13
Jesus also compared it to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah:
"The sun had risen over the earth when Lot came to Zoar. Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven, ... " Genesis 19:23-24
So the last day is just that - one last day. There will be no more days after that, which means no literal millennium.

Brethren in Christ Jesus:
The doctrine of no "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect starting at His future return, is a 2nd century doctrine of the false Christian GNOSTICS. It is a FALSE DOCTRINE.

St. Augustine around the 4th century A.D. brought that false Amillennial doctrine into popularity. Yet what is popular does not always mean it is God's Truth per His Word.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The doctrine of imminence is the notion that Jesus could return at any moment, since we do not know the day or hour of His return. I personally believe this doctrine to be false. IMO, it is a way to prop up "pre-trib" rapture. Setting aside the fact that the Bible never makes any mention of a 7 year tribulation period (there may be a 70th week, but it's never identified as "the tribulation"), The problem is that people have looked at this in only 3 ways:

• Jesus raptures pre-trib
• Jesus raptures mid-trib
• Jesus raptures post-trib

The second and third can't be true, because then we'd have a way to know the day and hour of His return. Therefore, the only choice left is pre-trib.

Consider this, however:

• We are told we will have tribulation
• We are not appointed to wrath

If you differentiate between tribulation and wrath, then the rapture should occur after the Great Tribulation when Jesus returns to pour out His wrath upon the earth. Does this mean that we can know the day or hour of His return? No.

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

The Great Tribulation is cut short. How short? Nobody knows. Therefore when the Great Tribulation is upon us, no one will know the day or hour of His return. This is commonly known as the pre-wrath rapture.

Peronally, I'm a Pan-tribber.

It'll all "pan out" the way it's supposed to, but the "Mature visible Church of Ephesians 4 isn't even on the radar - yet.

"Eschatology, is just a "religious word for "Rank Speculation".

 

[Rockson]

Peronally, I'm a Pan-tribber.

It'll all "pan out" the way it's supposed to, but the "Mature visible Church of Ephesians 4 isn't even on the radar - yet.

"Eschatology, is just a "religious word for "Rank Speculation".

I just can't buy this way of thinking which would lead people to think look you just can't KNOW any of these things for sure. Paul the Apostle DID NOT hold to such a position. He didn't say,

"Don't worry about taking seriously my words. I'm just engaging in rank speculation!"

What did he say? Here it is,

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come 2 Thess 2: 1,3

The rapture and when it takes place in sequence is NOT rank speculation . Paul or we can say the Holy Spirit through Paul by NO MEANS wanted people to be deceived therefore we can conclude IT'S CLEAR. Seeing that's the case God will say we're without excuse by making it seem we just don't know.

Now if one is talking about the day or hour and they spin off into absolute foolishness they can be blamed for that but the basics of the eschatological position concerning the rapture we should never say rank speculation.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I just can't buy this way of thinking which would lead people to think look you just can't KNOW any of these things for sure. Paul the Apostle DID NOT hold to such a position. He didn't say,

"Don't worry about taking seriously my words. I'm just engaging in rank speculation!"

What did he say? Here it is,

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come 2 Thess 2: 1,3

The rapture and when it takes place in sequence is NOT rank speculation . Paul or we can say the Holy Spirit through Paul by NO MEANS wanted people to be deceived therefore we can conclude IT'S CLEAR. Seeing that's the case God will say we're without excuse by making it seem we just don't know.

Now if one is talking about the day or hour and they spin off into absolute foolishness they can be blamed for that but the basics of the eschatological position concerning the rapture we should never say rank speculation.

Except, of course, that it's all "Rank Speculation" these days. I agree that to some extent, we can be aware of the "Season", but as to the time WE DON'T HAVE A CLUE.

My SUSPICION is that the MATURE CHURCH of Ephesians will, prompted by the unction of the Holy SPirit and begin to cry out: "Even so COME LORD JESUS" when the time is nigh. Right now we're still too concerned about the color of the walls in the sanctuary.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Except, of course, that it's all "Rank Speculation" these days. I agree that to some extent, we can be aware of the "Season", but as to the time WE DON'T HAVE A CLUE.

My SUSPICION is that the MATURE CHURCH of Ephesians will, prompted by the unction of the Holy SPirit and begin to cry out: "Even so COME LORD JESUS" when the time is nigh. Right now we're still too concerned about the color of the walls in the sanctuary.

2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

Yup!! It's gonna happen during the "Feast of trumpets" in 1988.

 

[Diserner]

Yup!! It's gonna happen during the "Feast of trumpets" in 1988.

It's hard not see something abused to an extreme, and not over correct on the ditch of the other side.

For example, many people see the abuse of Word of Faith, but the truth is, faith is still important in our life, and Mark 11:23 means something.

We see Charismatics throw their brains out to do wacky things, but the truth is, the Spirit can still function with gifts through us today.

I've had to steer back from "over correcting" in some areas, where I got so burned and disillusioned I threw the whole thing out.

 

[Rockson]

Except, of course, that it's all "Rank Speculation" these days. I agree that to some extent, we can be aware of the "Season", but as to the time WE DON'T HAVE A CLUE.

I don't want to leave the impression that I can't agree with any aspect of what you're saying. I concede there is some speculation things but when it comes to the actual sequence of when the rapture occurs.....before the man of sin is revealed or after......we just can't say that's speculation. (read 2 Thes 2)
He stated, do NOT be deceived about it. And that's God talking through Paul not just a man's opinion.

So let's be clear.....as to the day or hour....NO....we don't know that nor should we seek to pinpoint it. BUT the sequence of the event....rapture first or after the man of sin is reveled.......that's not speculation nor should it ever be considered such.

 

[Rockson]

Yup!! It's gonna happen during the "Feast of trumpets" in 1988.

Sure stuff like that was foolishness Bob. The only thing we should boldly stand for when it comes to the rapture is the sequence....the man of sin must be seen first. 2 Thess 2.

 

[Rockson]

It's hard not see something abused to an extreme, and not over correct on the ditch of the other side.

Many can fall into doing that. Some things can be very good and credible but that's just it.....the devil runs right in there and sprinkles it with extremism. ;His position is he just has to get people to throw out the baby with the bath water. Many, many do and what they discard WILL or can affect them in not such a good way the rest of their lives.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Sure stuff like that was foolishness Bob.

Yup "Eschatology" on display.

 

[Studyman]

Except, of course, that it's all "Rank Speculation" these days. I agree that to some extent, we can be aware of the "Season", but as to the time WE DON'T HAVE A CLUE.

My SUSPICION is that the MATURE CHURCH of Ephesians will, prompted by the unction of the Holy SPirit and begin to cry out: "Even so COME LORD JESUS" when the time is nigh. Right now we're still too concerned about the color of the walls in the sanctuary.

But isn't it our death, that marks the end of our fleshes journey? I mean, some will be alive when HE returns, but most will be dead, Doesn't death come as a thief in the night? We don't know when our death will come. Jesus knew when His was to come, as the Scriptures tell Him, but we don't know when ours will come.

John 7: 6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.
Luke 24: 25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Surely Stephen didn't know that morning that he would be stoned to death. But he was ready.
2 Peter 3: 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

A man dies, he loses consciousness. He can no longer praise God, he can no longer sin, he can do nothing. This is the "End" Jesus said to endure unto, Yes? And will a man not remain in this place, until the Christ returns and changes him? Isn't this why the Scriptures say;


11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
Isn't that the reason why we are told;

Duet. 6: 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: 7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. 8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. 9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

So we can be ready when the time comes?

Great topic.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

But isn't it our death, that marks the end of our fleshes journey?

ABSOLUTELY!!! However the "End of the age" is a different issue.

PERSONALLY, I don't think that in the "Rapture" (Assuming that there is one), that people will "disappear" at all ("Left Behind" scenario). I think they'll just DIE physically, And their glorified bodies will go to be with Jesus. I'll take it anyway it comes, though.

so we can be ready when the time comes?

I'm ready NOW. Today would be fine. 81 years is long enough. I'm ready for the pain to be over.

 

[DavidTree]

The doctrine of imminence is the notion that Jesus could return at any moment, since we do not know the day or hour of His return. I personally believe this doctrine to be false. IMO, it is a way to prop up "pre-trib" rapture. Setting aside the fact that the Bible never makes any mention of a 7 year tribulation period (there may be a 70th week, but it's never identified as "the tribulation"), The problem is that people have looked at this in only 3 ways:

• Jesus raptures pre-trib
• Jesus raptures mid-trib
• Jesus raptures post-trib

The second and third can't be true, because then we'd have a way to know the day and hour of His return. Therefore, the only choice left is pre-trib.

Consider this, however:

• We are told we will have tribulation
• We are not appointed to wrath

If you differentiate between tribulation and wrath, then the rapture should occur after the Great Tribulation when Jesus returns to pour out His wrath upon the earth. Does this mean that we can know the day or hour of His return? No.

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

The Great Tribulation is cut short. How short? Nobody knows. Therefore when the Great Tribulation is upon us, no one will know the day or hour of His return. This is commonly known as the pre-wrath rapture.

JESUS never taught the "doctrine of imminence" whereby His Second Coming could occur at any time = Matt ch24

JESUS always referred to OT Prophecy of Daniel concerning His Second Coming = Matt ch24

JESUS did teach that our life(on earth) is but a vapor that appears for a very short moment and then vanishes away. = Luke ch12

JESUS did teach that Judgment is "imminent" = "It is appointed once for man to die, after death is judgment" = Luke ch12

JESUS did teach that we must not cast off our confidence in Him and that we must persevere unto the "End" = Matt ch24

 

[DavidTree]

The doctrine of imminence is the notion that Jesus could return at any moment, since we do not know the day or hour of His return. I personally believe this doctrine to be false. IMO, it is a way to prop up "pre-trib" rapture. Setting aside the fact that the Bible never makes any mention of a 7 year tribulation period (there may be a 70th week, but it's never identified as "the tribulation"), The problem is that people have looked at this in only 3 ways:

• Jesus raptures pre-trib
• Jesus raptures mid-trib
• Jesus raptures post-trib

The second and third can't be true, because then we'd have a way to know the day and hour of His return. Therefore, the only choice left is pre-trib.

Consider this, however:

• We are told we will have tribulation
• We are not appointed to wrath

If you differentiate between tribulation and wrath, then the rapture should occur after the Great Tribulation when Jesus returns to pour out His wrath upon the earth. Does this mean that we can know the day or hour of His return? No.

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

The Great Tribulation is cut short. How short? Nobody knows. Therefore when the Great Tribulation is upon us, no one will know the day or hour of His return. This is commonly known as the pre-wrath rapture.

Just a 'heads UP' for you.

No one can know the exact "day or hour" UNLESS you know exactly when the antichrist is revealed and even then there is ambiguous timing of which only the FATHER knows.

There is even more ambiguity since the duration will be determined by the FATHER/LORD Jesus/Holy Spirit.
Case in Point = Matthew 24:22

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The doctrine of imminence is the notion that Jesus could return at any moment, since we do not know the day or hour of His return. I personally believe this doctrine to be false.

A "DOCTRINE" is nothing but "Theology". All God's Chilluns gots "Theologies".

Bottom line: Jesus will be BACK when it's TIME, and all the "Doctrines / Theologies" in the world won't change that by a millisecond, or have any effect on exactly what FORM His return takes.

The Bible seems to say that Born Again Christians will know the "SEASON" for HIS RETURN. MAYBE in unity we'll PRAY HIm back - "Even so COME LORD JESUS!!!!"

Eschatology" is just a religious word meaning: "Rank Speculation", and Ephesians speaks of a "PERFECT (Mature) Man in terms of the visible church actually coming into Spiritual UNITY. That's not even on the radar yet.

SO, Personally I'll keep on keeping on, and if there's a "Rapture", (in the popular sense) tonight would be fine. I don't expect it, but I would welcome it.

Simple as that.

 

[DavidTree]

A "DOCTRINE" is nothing but "Theology". All God's Chilluns gots "Theologies".

Bottom line: Jesus will be BACK when it's TIME, and all the "Doctrines / Theologies" in the world won't change that by a millisecond, or have any effect on exactly what FORM His return takes.

The Bible seems to say that Born Again Christians will know the "SEASON" for HIS RETURN. MAYBE in unity we'll PRAY HIm back - "Even so COME LORD JESUS!!!!"

Eschatology" is just a religious word meaning: "Rank Speculation", and Ephesians speaks of a "PERFECT (Mature) Man in terms of the visible church actually coming into Spiritual UNITY. That's not even on the radar yet.

SO, Personally I'll keep on keeping on, and if there's a "Rapture", (in the popular sense) tonight would be fine. I don't expect it, but I would welcome it.

Simple as that.

The "spiritual unity" of His Church will not be seen by the eye and it will not be taking place in modern christiandom/churches.

What is being seen by the eye and heard in our ears is the present apostacy/falling away!

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The "spiritual unity" of His Church will not be seen by the eye and it will not be taking place in modern christiandom/churches.

What is being seen by the eye and heard in our ears is the present apostacy/falling away!

Yup - that's "another theological assumption".

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Just a 'heads UP' for you.

No one can know the exact "day or hour" UNLESS you know exactly when the antichrist is revealed and even then there is ambiguous timing of which only the FATHER knows.

There is even more ambiguity since the duration will be determined by the FATHER/LORD Jesus/Holy Spirit.
Case in Point = Matthew 24:22

If one assumes the great tribulation is exactly 3.5 years, then yes, you could know when Jesus will return once the man of sin is revealed. But Jesus said He will cut short the great tribulation. He never tells us how short. So we may know that His return is functionally "imminent" once the man of sin is revealed and the great tribulation starts, but we still don't know the day or hour.

 

[DavidTree]

Yup - that's "another theological assumption".

AFBA = Actual factual biblical accounting = 1st & 2nd Thessalonians

IBJW - i believe Jesus words = Matt 4:4

Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.