The Doctrine of Imminence

[Ezra]

i have reda all this before even heard the teaching of this before , i still hold to pre trib the only thing holding Christ back is the father n heaven say GO .. i give you your study and i dont get wrapped up in end time clock events in fact it is 11:59 as i post the midnight hour can take place at anytime. i could use David Jeremiah time line study along with few others.. but you would reject it. no man knows the hour or the day

 

[DavidTree]

i have reda all this before even heard the teaching of this before , i still hold to pre trib the only thing holding Christ back is the father n heaven say GO .. i give you your study and i dont get wrapped up in end time clock events in fact it is 11:59 as i post the midnight hour can take place at anytime. i could use David Jeremiah time line study along with few others.. but you would reject it. no man knows the hour or the day

i never reject God's words.

Matthew 4:4 - "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the Mouth of God"

 

[Ezra]

i never reject God's words.

Matthew 4:4 - "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the Mouth of God"

you reject David Jeremiah teaching which he backs up by the word

 

[DavidTree]

you reject David Jeremiah teaching which he backs up by the word

i only reject those who oppose God's words or when they deny God's words.

The Holy Spirit's desire is for you to trust your Heavenly FATHER at His word.

ezra, i accept any and all scripture from our FATHER that you wish to show me.

 

[Ezra]

David Jeremiah is in great error as is all the modern day preachers of 'pre-trib' rapture. this is what you posted every thing he teaches he backs up with scriptures.. i dont follow him hook line and sinker but i do agree with his teaching on the rapture

ezra, i accept any and all scripture from our FATHER that you wish to show me.

you reject anything pretrib . i fail to see God putting his Children through the great tribulation . where men will seek death and desire to die . we will and are experiencing tribulation . in me ye shall have peace in this world ye shall have tribulation .but be of good cheer i have overcome the world. paul wrote God has not appointed us to WRATH but to obtain salvation . the wrath of God which is a partial of the great tribulation . the Bible says God will send strong delusions . why would a child of God be subject to this? along with
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. the great tribulation is not going to be a cake walk especially when the antichrist is made know paul talked about the mystery of iniquity .For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. the man of sin can not be made known until the Church is taken out of the way . the Holy Spirit is the great restrainer with holding all Hell breaking lose. when the Church is Gone the power is Gone

we think its crazy know we aint seen nothing yet . yes you will counter this.. but when you do you are rejecting the Word of God. once again i am more than familiar with your belief . yes i disagree with it

 

[DavidTree]

David Jeremiah is in great error as is all the modern day preachers of 'pre-trib' rapture. this is what you posted every thing he teaches he backs up with scriptures.. i dont follow him hook line and sinker but i do agree with his teaching on the rapture




you reject anything pretrib . i fail to see God putting his Children through the great tribulation . where men will seek death and desire to die . we will and are experiencing tribulation . in me ye shall have peace in this world ye shall have tribulation .but be of good cheer i have overcome the world. paul wrote God has not appointed us to WRATH but to obtain salvation . the wrath of God which is a partial of the great tribulation . the Bible says God will send strong delusions . why would a child of God be subject to this? along with
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. the great tribulation is not going to be a cake walk especially when the antichrist is made know paul talked about the mystery of iniquity .For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. the man of sin can not be made known until the Church is taken out of the way . the Holy Spirit is the great restrainer with holding all Hell breaking lose. when the Church is Gone the power is Gone

we think its crazy know we aint seen nothing yet . yes you will counter this.. but when you do you are rejecting the Word of God. once again i am more than familiar with your belief . yes i disagree with it

Dear ezra and @civic,

Take a little time and read this from a True Believer in Christ who suffered for her walk with Christ.

Corrie Ten Boom: Beware of False Teaching of Pre-Tribulation Rapture

During World War 2 Corrie Ten Boom and her family were arrested by the Germans for the crime of helping Jewish people hide. She was sent to a concentration camp and endured great hardships, but she survived. In 1974 Corrie Ten Boom wrote the letter shown below to warn Christians about the false...

z3news.com

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Who is David Jeremiah, and why does he trump all other understandings of Scripture given by the Holy Spirit.

I'm reminded of someone who constantly referred to Kenneth Copeland as an authoritative source. IMO, he should have spent less time with KC and more with JC.

 

[Ezra]

Who is David Jeremiah, and why does he trump all other understandings of Scripture given by the Holy Spirit.

I'm reminded of someone who constantly referred to Kenneth Copeland as an authoritative source. IMO, he should have spent less time with KC and more with JC.

psst for one is Just a Man 2. eh is pastor of shadow mountain church in calif.. he holds a doctors degree .. i never said trumped all DID I ? i like DR Jay Vernon McGee . might i remind all the same Holy Spirit that you all are claiming showed you truth.. is the same H.S that showed him truth. i will say i have read a few of his books they are good and hold truths.

as per Kenneth Copeland i have seen and heard enough out of him to ignore him. BTW i have yet to say any certain person holds

an authoritative source

 

[Ezra]

Dear ezra and @civic,

Take a little time and read this from a True Believer in Christ who suffered for her walk with Christ.

Corrie Ten Boom: Beware of False Teaching of Pre-Tribulation Rapture

During World War 2 Corrie Ten Boom and her family were arrested by the Germans for the crime of helping Jewish people hide. She was sent to a concentration camp and endured great hardships, but she survived. In 1974 Corrie Ten Boom wrote the letter shown below to warn Christians about the false...

z3news.com

so because of her horrible ordeal in the nazi death camp proves we go through the great tribulation.. this is mans source being a Christian does not let us escape the evil of this world.

 

[DavidTree]

so because of her horrible ordeal in the nazi death camp proves we go through the great tribulation.. this is mans source being a Christian does not let us escape the evil of this world.

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

[Ezra]

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for [a]all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

fine you go through the great tribulation .. i dont plan on being here

 

[DavidTree]

fine you go through the great tribulation .. i dont plan on being here

Personally, i have no desire to suffer beyond my present sufferings.
i greatly desire for the LORD to return and to be Transformed into His Likeness.

This is my favorite verse in scripture - 1 John 3:1-3

Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called sons of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are sons of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

psst for one is Just a Man 2. eh is pastor of shadow mountain church in calif.. he holds a doctors degree .. i never said trumped all DID I ? i like DR Jay Vernon McGee . might i remind all the same Holy Spirit that you all are claiming showed you truth.. is the same H.S that showed him truth. i will say i have read a few of his books they are good and hold truths.

as per Kenneth Copeland i have seen and heard enough out of him to ignore him. BTW i have yet to say any certain person holds

I used to listen to J. Vernon McGee all the time. The only teaching radio station near me now is too weak at night, so I can't listen at night like I used to.

I read a very thick book called "Things To Come" by pre-tribber Dwight Pentecost. I believed in pre-trib back then, but even then I could see lots of problems with his interpretation of Scripture. Pre-trib just isn't in there.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Personally, i have no desire to suffer beyond my present sufferings.
i greatly desire for the LORD to return and to be Transformed into His Likeness.

Amen. I could list tons of Scripture to dispute pre-trib. But here's a philosophical point I don't understand why everyone misses. We have a long history of Christian martyrs being fed to lions, stoned, crucified upside down, and so on. What makes OUR mostly apostate generation worth sparing "tribulation"? Isn't tribulation something that exposes and strengthens our faith? Why would God make us go AWOL for that? It makes no sense.

We WILL have tribulation. We are not appointed to wrath. Big difference.

 

[Ezra]

Pre-trib just isn't in there.

yup and the one who are pre trib say the same thing about yours

 

[DavidTree]

31 The heaven and the earth, shall pass away, but, my words, shall not pass away.
32 But, concerning that day or hour, no one, knoweth, neither the messengers in heaven, nor the Son,--save the Father.
33 Be taking heed, be watching, for ye know not, when, the season [[is]]:--
34 As a man from home--having left his house, and given his servants the authority, to each one, his work,--and, unto the porter, hath given command, that he should watch:--
35 Be watching, therefore, for ye know not, when, the master of the house, is coming,--whether at even, or at midnight, or at cock-crowing, or at early morn;--
36 Lest, coming suddenly, he find you, sleeping.
37 But, what, unto you, I say, unto all, I say:--Be watching. (Mk. 13:31-37 ROT)

@The Rogue Tomato @dizerner @civic @Rockson

Why did the LORD say this to us full well knowing that His Return is not for at least 2,000 years.

 

[DavidTree]

yup and the one who are pre trib say the same thing about yours

Only one is CORRECT

How are you going to know which 'One'?

 

[DavidTree]

I agree. Many have looked for the rapture in Revelation. I believe I found it....could be mistaken. I think of it like looking for an old sunken ship on the ocean floor. You come across something which looks like it and you look for positive identifcation. You have to clear off debris off a deck of ship to make identificaiton. The debris in this context would be wrong ideas of just why this couldn't be the rapture. . When one sees things which should be so startlingly obvious it should lead one to believe yes it does seem like this is it. Just like you say.....Mark 12, Matt 24 and Rev 6 line up the same.

Matt 24 talks about a great persecution , tribulation.....Rev 6, the 5th seals has that in it.....next Sun turns to darkness, moon like blood......Rev 6/Matt 24 say the same.......then the Son of Man returns....found in Mt 24 and Rev 6 says hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne.....do they actually see Jesus Christ here coming in the clouds? Is the rapture not so secret after all? I was reading this one day....I am,” said Jesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.” Mk 14:62

Jesus will be sitting when he comes in clouds? I'd never heard anyone say that. And interesting we see that implied in Rev 6: 16 Hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne! Just figurative language? I don't know. Maybe not.

There is no 7th Seal though. Only 6.

@civic

Rev 8:1
And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

comments

 

[DavidTree]

I could be wrong about what I think about the rapture. I've always been open to change what I think about it but I consider the truth of it to be Pre-Wrath. Years ago around 78 I did a lot of study on this. I remember telling friends I think I've got it. They asked, "Well, PreTrib or PostTrib.

I said neither. Wasn't for a few years later I saw others writing books on it. I just said well it's before the Wrath of God with the rapture taking place in the first few verses of chapter 7 and the right before wrath, the tribulation taking place from Rev 6 to the end of the chapter. More can be said but one interesting thing I went to the Greek and looked up Wrath and Tribulation. I found they were two separate Greek words.

thlipsis: tribulation
Original Word: θλῖψις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: thlipsis
Phonetic Spelling: (thlip'-sis)
Definition: tribulation
Usage: persecution, affliction, distress, tribulation.

The word for wrath is,
orgé: impulse, wrath
Original Word: ὀργή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: orgé
Phonetic Spelling: (or-gay')
Definition: impulse, wrath
Usage: anger, wrath, passion; punishment, vengeance.

So here's the thing. We have heard something over and over and over.....and it gets so engrained in us it becomes almost impossible to modify our belief. One has heard repeatedly, "The Great Tribulation Period 7 years long" You hear that over and over but did the Bible state great tribulation Mt 24 was 7 years long? I get it I know it comes from the 70th week thing but still who get's to decide you call that 70th week tribulation? And we've got accustomed to calling it The Great Tribulation, as in THEE great tribulation. Jesus just said there will be a time of great tribulation or great persecution. Not wrath....persecution.

So tribulation and wrath are not it seems that same thing. Tribulation is persecution which Jesus never said we'd escape. But persecution doesn't come from God. It comes from the devil. It couldn't come from God for a Kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. Point. Tribulation you can see from Rev 6 to the end of the chapter. Wrath starts at Rev 7: 1 or gets about to start. It even states this....don't release it yet God says to the angels until the 144,000 are sealed.

Wrath is the anger, passion, vengeance of God. Tribulation is persecution against God's people. (more could be said)

100% God's Word = pre-wrath = "we are not appointed to wrath"

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The doctrine of imminence is the notion that Jesus could return at any moment, since we do not know the day or hour of His return.

And that's a true statement - with the observation that Born again Christians, who are moving in the Holy Spirit in their lives probably will recognize REAL signs, and NOT BE TOTALLY IGNORANT in the way that "professional eschatologists" are.

PERSONALLY, I see the Church of Ephesians 4:13 (the coming "Mature Church") as a significant indication that the end is immanent, BUT that's only "Theology". In the final analysis, Jesus will be back when it's TIME, and "Theology" about that doesn't mean SPIT.