The Doctrine of Imminence

[DavP]

Further, did yal know that all peoples still alive on earth on that day of Christ's future coming will be changed? I know it's traditionally taught by most Churches that 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 is taught to be for those in Christ Jesus only, but that was not where Apostle Paul was pulling from with the 'death swallowed up in victory' idea.

Did you ever bother to look up in the Old Testament where Apostle Paul was quoting the following part in green?

1 Cor 15:51-54
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."
KJV


This might be difficult for some to digest, but I admonish you to do your own Bible study on it, and be careful of listening to men's traditions.

Isa 25:5-9
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.

That above is about the last day of this world, when God's consuming fire will end the power of the wicked on earth against Christ and His servants; it's the time of the end part of the 6th Seal, the 7th Trumpet, 7th Vial.

6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

We know per Zechariah 14:16-17, Revelation 20, John 5:28-29, and even Revelation 3:9 (about the "synagogue of Satan" being made to bow at the feet of Christ's elect to worship Christ), that not all the wicked are destroyed by God's consuming fire event on that last day, the "day of the Lord."

7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

That "covering" and "vail" suggests the "corruptible" flesh body that Apostle Paul taught concerning those still alive on earth being "changed" on the "last trump" to the resurrection body of "incorruption". That's a lot of strong meat I just said there. Think on it per the 1 Corinthians 15 Scripture I showed above.

Jesus showed in John 5:28-29 that even the wicked dead will be raised to that body of the resurrection (i.e., the "spiritual body") per the "resurrection of damnation" idea.

Notice that above Isaiah 25:7 verse shows that will happen upon "all people", and "all nations".


8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

That is where Paul was quoting about 'death swallowed up in victory' regarding the changes of 1 Corinthians 15:52-54. For the unsaved, that is pointing only to the death of the flesh being no more. But for those in Christ, that is pointing to us not being subject to the "second death" that will happen at the end of Christ's future "thousand years" reign.

9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, This is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: This is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."
KJV

That last verse will be about those in Christ Jesus that will have 'waited'... for His coming on the last day of this world. It will be like we will point directly to Him, and say something like, 'Hey Yal, THIS is our God, we have waited for His coming!'


I know, some of you are asking, "how are the wicked unsaved understood apart from those in Christ on that day, if they receive the change to the spiritual body also?"

Apostle Paul actually covered that in 1 Corinthians 15, because he taught that in order to have Eternal Life in Christ Jesus, one MUST go through TWO CHANGES per that 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 Scripture.

Most simply do not bother to look that up in the Greek, where Paul distinguishes difference with 4 different Greek words about that change. On the last day of this world, at Christ's coming to gather us, that change will mean flesh death is over, forever over, and no more, for ALL souls.

But the "second death" will still remain, but only for the unsaved who reject Jesus Christ.

Per the FOUR GREEK WORDS Apostle Paul used to distinguish the difference of the change on the last trump for the unsaved, vs. the saved in Christ. See 1 Corinthians 15:53...

KJV
This "corruptible" = Greek phthartos, meaning 'decayed, perishable', (our flesh bodies)
must put on...

"incorruption" = aphthrsia, meaning 'incorruptibility, unending existence, (the "spiritual body", the OUTWARD body of the resurrection)
AND...

"this mortal" = thnetos, meaning liable to die, (the mortal soul still subject to the "second death")
must put on...

"immortality" = athanasia, meaning deathlessness, (Eternal Life through Jesus Christ)


Paul thus taught that TWO different CHANGES are required to have Eternal Life through Christ Jesus. HOW do we come to that last 'change' of our mortal soul putting on immortality? Through FAITH on God The Son Jesus Christ, Emmanuel God with us! That's about being BORN AGAIN IN CHRIST JESUS!

Have the unsaved believed that FAITH on the Blood of Jesus Christ shed upon His cross for the remission of sins? NO!

And that is why their 'mortal' soul part will still be subject to being cast into the future "lake of fire" at the end of Christ's future "thousand years" reign. And that reign begins at His future return. That casting into the future "lake of fire" is called the "second death", a death not to one's flesh body, because it will already be gone; it will be a death of one's spirit with soul, a death that Satan and his angels will also experience, not involving a flesh body.

Lot of strong meat there, consider it carefully, and check me out in God's written Word, not man's.

 

[Azriel]

We don’t know exactly when God will take His followers out of the world, but we do know that it will happen on a day that otherwise seems ordinary... Are you ready? Perhaps today!

 

[Grace ambassador]

op: The Doctrine Of Imminence?
I believe it Is Scriptural, if God's Word of Truth Is Rightly Divided:

Great Grace Departure!

Of course this Conclusion came about after being on u-tube, and being called
a shabby theologian. [ greatest way to get me 'to change my mind', eh? ]

Thus, 18 months ( time-out ) was taken to develop a prayerful/Careful 17-part
Bible study in order to come up with it - should I change my mind now? ie:

Outline:

1a) Peace With God!
1b) Which Bible version should I use?

a) God's "Preserved Word 'For all generations'" Which Has Not 'changed'? ​

With The underlying manuscripts which were used by believers, who ​

believed them, copied them, and passed them around for edification​

Of The Body Of Christ for centuries? Now translated into English/other​

languages. Is this from God?​

Or:​

​

b) the newer ( skipping generations ) 'textual criticism' versions, which are based on 'older​

/ more reliable manuscripts ( not used? ) found preserved in caves and trash cans, for​

the following reason: Now we have over 100 versions which are constantly changing​

( at least 30% in order to "get a new copyright"? ), and we are told that these are​

"much easier to read and understand"? Is this from God? Just wondering..​

cont'd:

2) Bible study Rules
3) Three 'ages' Rightly Divided
4) Which Gospel 'makes way' for which gospel?
5) Great Tribulation, Or: tribulations/Great Grace Departure?
6) Departure 'expectations'
7) Heavenly Uplook for the Body Of Christ
8) Looking, Patiently waiting, and watching For 'Blessed Hope' (or 'signs'?)
9) Body Removal 'interpretations' of difficult passages
10) The Day Of Christ vs Day Of The Lord vs Day Of God
11) Confidence in death/resurrection Or in living/glorification
12) No 'warning' Imminence
13) Two 'Trumps of God' In The Age of Grace
14) Meeting Christ 'in the air'
15) Preparation for 'Judgment Of The Entire Body Of Christ'
16) Post Departure Deceptions

​

[ not much interest in these, but still 'available upon request'... ], so,​

just this, for now, hopefully in accordance with Rule # 5:​

​

The Final Conclusion of study of all The Scriptures found in the above 16 parts:

Imminent Great Grace Departure!​

Amen.

 

[Studyman]

The doctrine of imminence is the notion that Jesus could return at any moment, since we do not know the day or hour of His return. I personally believe this doctrine to be false. IMO, it is a way to prop up "pre-trib" rapture. Setting aside the fact that the Bible never makes any mention of a 7 year tribulation period (there may be a 70th week, but it's never identified as "the tribulation"), The problem is that people have looked at this in only 3 ways:

• Jesus raptures pre-trib
• Jesus raptures mid-trib
• Jesus raptures post-trib

The second and third can't be true, because then we'd have a way to know the day and hour of His return. Therefore, the only choice left is pre-trib.

Consider this, however:

• We are told we will have tribulation
• We are not appointed to wrath

If you differentiate between tribulation and wrath, then the rapture should occur after the Great Tribulation when Jesus returns to pour out His wrath upon the earth. Does this mean that we can know the day or hour of His return? No.

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

The Great Tribulation is cut short. How short? Nobody knows. Therefore when the Great Tribulation is upon us, no one will know the day or hour of His return. This is commonly known as the pre-wrath rapture.

I'm not sure there is to be any difference for the believer, whether we die, or whether HE comes back before we die.

Either way, out time of testing is over. The Judgment awaits us, as it is written;

Rev. 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

God already knows our fate, but we don't. Jesus said there will be "many" who preached in His Name, that will say to Him in that day, I'll paraphrase, "Wait a minute Jesus, don't you know who we are"?

Every man will have end times, just as Abraham and Stephen. We, who claim belief in God, know this life will end at some point. I think it's good to be ready to meet Him, if I get run over by a Semi truck tomorrow, or He comes back next month.

As it is written;

2 Pet. 3: 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

I agree that all the religions and traditions and various philosophies being bandied about, as they have since Babel, are a distraction from what the Holy Scriptures teach, when they are all summed up.

Ecc. 12: 12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Certainly not a very seductive marketing strategy to fill the seats of all the shrines of worship built by this world's "many" religious businesses. However, it certainly seems to reflect the Simplicity that is in Christ Jesus.

 

[e v e]

the sky scrolls up and ends..

as it is not God's...but is of the prince of the air.

this earth and its sky, per prophets will be destroyed..

if the sky scrolled back, this actual sky,
that is the end cosmologically...

not a flowery abstraction...
but an end to this earth.

 

[Rockson]

Close.

Ha....but not a ringer like horseshoes eh? lol

Per Rev.19 Lord Jesus comes riding a white horse.

So the question is. Are they seeing Jesus in with the rapture in Rev 6 as one sitting on a throne? Figurative language maybe? We do see this scripture,

“and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.” Mk 14:62 then Rev 6: 16 looks like the same. So? Possible Jesus raptures his body in Rev 6 and then the wrath of God outpoured in Rev 7 and onwards. Then he comes back on the White Horse later in Rev 19? I think that might be the way of it.

I interpret that Rev.6:16 idea, "... the face of Him That sits upon the throne" as being The Father.

Won't say that it isn't. But we do see the Mark 14:2 verse of scripture above.

That event when those will wish to hide is about the last day of this world when Jesus comes in the clouds, and as per Rev.1 every eye shall see Him. How will all eyes see Him coming in the clouds?

But I'm wondering if the world sees him both times. Rev 6 AND when he comes back on the White horse.

On a deeper note, that is about the heavens being rolled up like a scroll, which is an expression for the end of this present 2nd world earth age. God's Wrath there is to involve the "consuming fire" Peter pointed on that last day, the "day of the Lord" (2 Peter 3:10).

I can see why you might say that.....I think a possible problem with that is the wrath of God doesn't start until you get into Rev 7.

Those alive on earth will changed to the "spiritual body" along with that "consuming fire" event. It won't affect us who are still alive on earth, but for the wicked, as shown in Zechariah 14, that consuming fire event will melt their eyes in their sockets, etc., pretty graphic.

I tend to think the event you're referred to in Peter the elements shall melt with fervent heat doesn't happen until much later way after Rev 6.

Christ Jesus comes on 777 (end of 6th Seal into the 7th Seal, 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe, 7th Vial which is poured into the "air" ending this present world)

So it seems you're suggesting the Six Seals, Vials, and Trumpets totally overlap each other. Have a hard time with that. Rev 7:1 seems to indicate the wrath hasn't even begun to be outpoured.

Could be wrong but there's how I look at it. The Seals merely reveal goings on on the earth before the wrath. There's tribulation, persecution and difficult times but not wrath. I do feel however the vials, and the trumpets are the same thing just a different perspective of looking at it.

 

[Rockson]

As it is written;

2 Pet. 3: 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

So we ask the question what's the most important crucial thing in life? Getting a good education, landing a good career. Nothing wrong with that of course . We
're to occupy until he comes. But is the most important thing to have a good level of prosperity to feel financial security....nice home and being able to retire young? Or is it to have the most wonderful beautiful or handsome spouse who has all things going for them? All those things can be nice but the key thing that all life should revolve around is maybe the verse you quoted,


2 Pet. 3: 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Perhaps that truth should be as a frontlet between our eyes....make sure our relationship with the Lord is in peace and we are genuinely without spot and blameless. Nothing can be more important. Nothing.

 

[e v e]

everything else can fall to the wayside...

 

[Studyman]

Imagine the anger and gnashing of teeth for those "many" in Matthew 7 that Jesus, in His Love and Compassion for us, warned us about.

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

All that time God gave them to "Seek Ye First the Kingdom of God, and HIS Righteousness".

All that time God gave them to "Deny themselves, pick up their life's experience (Cross) and Follow Him."

All that Time God gave them to "Patiently continue in well doing, Seeking for glory and honour and immortality."

All that Time God gave them to "press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."

It was right there, within their grasp. But instead, they listened to the "other voice" in the garden God placed them in, who persuaded them that God lied to them, and that "You shall surely not die".

This OP is a great topic. I have pondered on the Scriptures about the Tribulation being cut short. And I am convinced every man goes through this tribulation in their life Spiritually. Certainly the man Jesus did.

Just for Rockson though, this thought occurred to me awhile back. Considering my 30 years of "Pressing toward the mark", at 64 I can't imagine how a man could endure to the end, if they lived 700 years. Even in Abraham's time it would have been tough. Can you even imagine being engaged in the fight against the principalities of this world for another 500 or more years?

It's my own thought, and maybe means nothing.

Gen. 6: 3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

That would sure cut the tribulation of each man short. In America the average life expectancy is around 74.

I almost find this a comfort considering the influences of this world that surround me now.

Anyway, It's Atonement today, which foreshadows in part, the day when the Prince of this World finally gets locked up.

I guess I'm earnestly groaning.

Great topic. I enjoy your perspective.

 

[DavP]

We don’t know exactly when God will take His followers out of the world, but we do know that it will happen on a day that otherwise seems ordinary... Are you ready? Perhaps today!

Those in Christ only go up into the "clouds" that happen when Jesus descends from Heaven on His way to the Mount of Olives per Zechariah 14. That happens on the LAST DAY of this world. And because Zechariah 14 reveals that Jesus reigns on the earth, and He brings us there to the Mount of Olives with Him, it basically means this earth is still our home. It's just that the heavenly dimension is coming here, on earth, with Him.

 

[DavP]

Ha....but not a ringer like horseshoes eh? lol

My meaning is that there's a whole lot... more Scripture involved. Probably a bunch that I have missed that The LORD will only reveal when He sees fit.

So the question is. Are they seeing Jesus in with the rapture in Rev 6 as one sitting on a throne? Figurative language maybe? We do see this scripture,

“and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.” Mk 14:62 then Rev 6: 16 looks like the same. So? Possible Jesus raptures his body in Rev 6 and then the wrath of God outpoured in Rev 7 and onwards. Then he comes back on the White Horse later in Rev 19? I think that might be the way of it.

Exactly what throne is Lord Jesus to inherit? And I'm well aware of the Revelation 3:21 verse where Lord Jesus infers that He is sitting with The Father in His Throne. Yet the majority of Scriptures about Jesus and the throne in Heaven is, that Jesus is sitting on the right hand... of The Father's Throne, and I believe that to be more accurate, thus making His Rev.3:21 more as an expression of Him and The Father are One.

Lord Jesus' throne He is to inherit is an 'earthly' throne, the throne of His father David. This is why I consider (loosely) that those who see The One sitting on a throne in Heaven when God's cup of wrath is coming per the 6th Seal is actually The Father sitting on His Throne in Heaven. The heavenly dimension is going to be opened up for all... to see on that last day of this world when Jesus comes, which is also what that likely is pointing to. So that's what I meant.

Won't say that it isn't. But we do see the Mark 14:2 verse of scripture above.

Uh... what? Mark 14:2? That verse is not about this topic.

But I'm wondering if the world sees him both times. Rev 6 AND when he comes back on the White horse.

I interpret the Rev.19 events of Jesus returning on a white horse, with His army, as the same time as His coming on the last part of the 6th Seal. So that's really not about 2 times of His coming, but only one time of His future coming.

(The Pre-trib Rapture theory was first preached by the Edward Irving church in 1830s Great Britain, and John Nelson Darby picked up on it and began teaching it. For about 1,800 years prior to that, the Christian Church held to a post-tribulational coming and gathering of Christ's Church.

Thus Pre-trib's idea that Jesus comes once prior to the great tribulation and gathers His Church, and then returns to earth on the last day with all His Church, which Pre-trib calls the "second coming", is a foreign idea that is not written in God's Word. Lord Jesus comes only one time to gather His Church, on the last day of this world, which is His "second coming". The Pre-trib Rapture theory instead ADDS a 3rd coming, which is not written.

See Zechariah 9:9-10 which points only to two times of Christ's coming, the first one being when He came to die on the cross, and the second one on the last day of this present world to gather His elect and begin His future reign over all nations.)

I can see why you might say that.....I think a possible problem with that is the wrath of God doesn't start until you get into Rev 7.

The last part of the 6th Seal points to God's cup of wrath coming, and the wicked want to hide from His coming. So that is... the event of Jesus coming on the 'last day' of this world. The 7th Seal of Revelation 8:1, I only see like the Pslams 'selah' idea, as I already explained, that half an hour of silence of the 7th Seal representing that it's all over by that 7th Seal.

I see the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials simply as 3 separate views of the 'same' events leading up to Christ's return, and including the day of Christ's return.

I tend to think the event you're referred to in Peter the elements shall melt with fervent heat doesn't happen until much later way after Rev 6.

Man's Pre-trib Rapture theory thinks that too. I do not.

God's consuming fire of 2 Peter 3:10 is that day when God's cup of Wrath is poured out upon the earth. It will be that specific event of God's Wrath that will literally end... this 2nd world earth age, and usher us all into Christ's Millennium time.

Many of the events that happen only on the 'last day' of this world are spread out in Revelation when being written as given John by vision, but many of those events on that day happen very quickly. So one can miss that point by seeing those events written out in several chapters of Revelation. This is why we see God's Wrath mentioned in the Seals, and in the Trumpets, and in the Vials, even though its description is spread out within several chapters.

The Seal events are the same events of the Trumpets and Vials, but with some different details.

Just like the Four Gospel Books, each one has some different details between them, but they are about the same main events. Likewise the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are just different details of the 'same' events, like the events in Christ's Olivet discourse. In Christ's Olivet discourse there's really only 7 main Signs of the end Jesus gave leading up to His future coming. That's one of the reasons why those 7 Signs parallel the Seals of Rev.6, with the 7th Seal only mentioned later with a pause.

So it seems you're suggesting the Six Seals, Vials, and Trumpets totally overlap each other. Have a hard time with that. Rev 7:1 seems to indicate the wrath hasn't even begun to be outpoured.

Do you mean Rev.8:1 about mention of the 7th Seal?

The Rev.7 chapter is about the sealing of Christ's elect PRIOR to the four angels loosing the four winds upon the earth, thus ending this present world, which is a last day event. So Rev.7 is actually a type of parenthetical chapter, i.e., a break in the flow with giving a certain detail about Christ's elect that are prepared for the trib by being sealed with God's seal (see also Rev.9 about those not... sealed).

Not every detail given between the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials directly overlap. That's why I used the example of the Four Gospels where most of them overlap, yet some details given do not. Yet all Four Gospels are witnesses about Christ's Ministry, death on the cross, and His resurrection.

So then, looking at the Rev.11 chapter with the 7th Trumpet, and God's Wrath being mentioned happening there, how does that affect the Rev.16 7th Vial mention of that Wrath also? If like you say, it doesn't seem the Wrath happens yet on the 6th Seal mention of it, then why couldn't the 7th Trumpet mention of it not happen yet there either? That's actually confusion. I only see the below verse saying that "day" of His wrath is... come. Not later.

Rev 6:17
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV

Could be wrong but there's how I look at it. The Seals merely reveal goings on on the earth before the wrath. There's tribulation, persecution and difficult times but not wrath. I do feel however the vials, and the trumpets are the same thing just a different perspective of looking at it.

I see all 3 sets of events pointing to the same Signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse, just different details between some of them, 7 Signs broken down into 21 details.

 

[civic]

Matthew 25:1-13
“At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

6 “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’

7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’

9 “‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’

10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’

12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’

13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

Revelation 22:12
“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done.

Matthew 24:44
Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Luke 12:40
You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”

Luke 21:34-36
“But watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap. For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth. But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

John 14:1-3
“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5:2
For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

Titus 2:13
Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

 

[DavP]

Matthew 25:1-13
“At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

....

So what about this one you quoted?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Do you not see that event is timed with the future time of the resurrection on the 'last day' of this world?

John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him That sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV


The doctrine of Imminence is a doctrine of men promoted by the Pre-trib Rapture Theory school. It is also called the 'Any Moment' doctrine.

It suggests that Christ can come 'at any moment', which is NOT true per Bible Scripture regarding the Signs of the end which Lord Jesus gave His faithful Church to be watching, leading up to His future coming to gather us.

How do we make ourselves 'ready' for His coming then? By 'watching' those SIGNS of the end He gave in His Olivet discourse while upon the Mount of Olives conversing with His disciples who asked Him about it (Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21).

One of His ideas He used was that of the thief breaking into your home, and that if the goodman of the house had know in WHAT WATCH the thief would come, he would have watched, and not suffered his house to be broken into (Matthew 24:43).

The idea that we are to WATCH was His primary commandment for the end with waiting on His coming. Men's doctrines that do not WATCH those Signs of the end He gave don't know... what to WATCH. They just think, 'be ready', and then go on tirades about Jesus can come at any moment, so be ready brethren!

I hate to sound like I'm mocking you brethren that believe those pre-trib rapture preachers, but it's the false pre-trib rapture school with their un-Biblical ideas that I'm mocking. The only way you pre-tribbers are going to understand the Truth of what I'm saying per God's written Word is by getting into God's Word line upon line, chapter by chapter, for yourselves, and stop skipping stones on a pond with Bible Scripture taken out of context.

 

[Complete]

The doctrine of imminence is the notion that Jesus could return at any moment, since we do not know the day or hour of His return. I personally believe this doctrine to be false. IMO, it is a way to prop up "pre-trib" rapture. Setting aside the fact that the Bible never makes any mention of a 7 year tribulation period (there may be a 70th week, but it's never identified as "the tribulation"), The problem is that people have looked at this in only 3 ways:​

• Jesus raptures pre-trib
• Jesus raptures mid-trib
• Jesus raptures post-trib

The second and third can't be true, because then we'd have a way to know the day and hour of His return. Therefore, the only choice left is pre-trib.​

​

Consider this, however:​

• We are told we will have tribulation
• We are not appointed to wrath

If you differentiate between tribulation and wrath, then the rapture should occur after the Great Tribulation when Jesus returns to pour out His wrath upon the earth. Does this mean that we can know the day or hour of His return? No.​

​

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, there should no flesh be saved: ...​

'For from you sounded out the word of the Lord
not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place
your faith to God-ward is spread abroad;
so that we need not to speak any thing.
For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you,
and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
And to wait for His Son from heaven, Whom He raised from the dead,
even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.'
(1 Thess.1:8-10)

Hello @The Rogue Tomato,

I have not seen the words,' Flee From The Wrath To Come', placarded in the streets for a long time, yet it is needed now more than at any other time I feel. Yet, in the days of our Lord's ministry, we see the words spoken by John the Baptist, in Luke 3:7 and Matthew 3:7 in the form of a question, to the Pharisees and Sadducees, who were approaching him for baptism. 'Who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?'

The Lord said:-
'Watch therefore,
for ye know neither the day nor the hour
wherein the Son of man cometh.'
(Mat 25:13)

* We know neither 'the day' nor 'the hour', no, but we are given descriptions of the events preceding His coming aren't we? So that we can identify the period by those events that are taking place, even if we do not know the specific day nor hour. So the periods listed, 'pre-trib', 'mid-trib' or 'post trib' for that day when He comes again to receive His own unto Himself is surely determined by those events:-

'Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto Him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled,
neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.'
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

* These are just thoughts, I am not concluding anything.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[DavP]

'For from you sounded out the word of the Lord
not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place
your faith to God-ward is spread abroad;
so that we need not to speak any thing.
For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you,
and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
And to wait for His Son from heaven, Whom He raised from the dead,
even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.'
(1 Thess.1:8-10)

Hello @The Rogue Tomato,

I have not seen the words,' Flee From The Wrath To Come', placarded in the streets for a long time, yet it is needed now more than at any other time I feel. Yet, in the days of our Lord's ministry, we see the words spoken by John the Baptist, in Luke 3:7 and Matthew 3:7 in the form of a question, to the Pharisees and Sadducees, who were approaching him for baptism. 'Who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?'

The Lord said:-
'Watch therefore,
for ye know neither the day nor the hour
wherein the Son of man cometh.'
(Mat 25:13)

* We know neither 'the day' nor 'the hour', no, but we are given descriptions of the events preceding His coming aren't we? So that we can identify the period by those events that are taking place, even if we do not know the specific day nor hour. So the periods listed, 'pre-trib', 'mid-trib' or 'post trib' for that day when He comes again to receive His own unto Himself is surely determined by those events:-

'Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto Him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled,
neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.'
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

* These are just thoughts, I am not concluding anything.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Look at Revelation 11.

Those events of Rev.11:1-13 happen on the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period.

We told God's two witnesses after having lay dead in the street for 3 and 1/2 days, suddenly stand up, and rise to Heaven.

Then in the "same hour", there is a great earthquake, and the 3rd final Woe then comes quickly.

Then the 7th Trumpet sounds bringing the final 3rd Woe, with the event of Christ's future coming and start of His reign over all the kingdoms of this world.

Do you not see a time pocket there of 3 and 1/2 days just PRIOR to Christ's coming and start of His literal reign over all the earth?

Does this mean Jesus showed us about His future return within a 3 and 1/2 day period? Yes! And like He showed John in the Rev.11:9 all the world will literally 'see' the dead bodies of God's two witnesses lay in the street for 3 and 1/2 days, that means we will see it too. That in itself suggests satellite technology is how all the world will see that.

Therefore, no man that does not have the intestinal fortitude to obey Lord Jesus' commandment to be WATCHING the Signs of the end He gave leading up to His future return, and patiently WAIT for Him, need try to tell me to just 'be ready' and that we will fly away at any moment.

 

[Grace ambassador]

God already knows our fate, but we don't.

Precious friend, respectfully disagree, as Scripture Is Plain and Clear:

"These things have I written unto you that believe on The Name​

Of The SON of God; That ye may know that ye have Eternal Life..."​

(1 John 5:13)​

​

Further Confirmed By Multitudes Of Scriptures, So That 'we may know':

God's Operation Performed on all new-born babes In Christ!
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

Amen.

+
what's ↓ below ↓ so that we may know:

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

The doctrine of imminence is the notion that Jesus could return at any moment, since we do not know the day or hour of His return. I personally believe this doctrine to be false. IMO, it is a way to prop up "pre-trib" rapture. Setting aside the fact that the Bible never makes any mention of a 7 year tribulation period (there may be a 70th week, but it's never identified as "the tribulation"), The problem is that people have looked at this in only 3 ways:

• Jesus raptures pre-trib
• Jesus raptures mid-trib
• Jesus raptures post-trib

The second and third can't be true, because then we'd have a way to know the day and hour of His return. Therefore, the only choice left is pre-trib.

Consider this, however:

• We are told we will have tribulation
• We are not appointed to wrath

If you differentiate between tribulation and wrath, then the rapture should occur after the Great Tribulation when Jesus returns to pour out His wrath upon the earth. Does this mean that we can know the day or hour of His return? No.

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

The Great Tribulation is cut short. How short? Nobody knows. Therefore when the Great Tribulation is upon us, no one will know the day or hour of His return. This is commonly known as the pre-wrath rapture.

Addressing the OP of this topic, I think there are a lot of mixed up assumptions going on. If one starts with a faulty foundation then anything built on it will also not be correct.

The first statement about "we do not know...." has been recently addressed in several threads. The English definition of "know" does not give the correct meaning of the original text. It's not that we can not ever have this knowledge. The point being made by Jesus is that the revealing of that exact knowledge is by the sole authority and grace of God the Father. All the following parables by Jesus clearly teach that if we are awake, that knowledge can and will be known.

But what exactly was it that was to be known about? When will these things be? What's things? The time of Messiah's return. So mixing in the timing of the rapture was not even being addressed in that passage. Nope. Not even the part where "one will be taken and one will remain". But that will have to wait for a different teaching.

The "catching away" was a mystery revealed in the New Testament. There are some Old Testament passages that hint at it but it waited to be developed by the New Testament authors. I think it is correct that there is no way to figure out the timing of it specifically. Other than the high likelihood that the day the Church began will also be the day that it gets "caught away". That is on the Feast of Weeks.

However, Scripture contains many specific numbers connected with the Day of the Lord. I believe God expects the faithful to know exactly when it will happen - revealed at the time of His pleasure. There's 3 1/2 years, 1 Week (7 years), 2300 evening/morning units, 1260 days, 1290 days, 1335 days, 430 days for year. All things that can be known for certain with the correct understanding of Jewish customs, Jewish Feasts and the proper Jewish calendar (btw, the modern Jewish calendar is not the accurate calendar used in Biblical era).

 

[Studyman]

Precious friend, respectfully disagree, as Scripture Is Plain and Clear:

"These things have I written unto you that believe on The Name​

Of The SON of God; That ye may know that ye have Eternal Life..."​

(1 John 5:13)​

​

Further Confirmed By Multitudes Of Scriptures, So That 'we may know':

God's Operation Performed on all new-born babes In Christ!
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

Amen.

+
what's ↓ below ↓ so that we may know:

Awe yes brother,

But shall I not also listen to and trust John in his other words, as well and the Jesus of the Bible?

1 John 2: 3 "And hereby we do know" that we know him, "if" we keep his commandments.

4 "He that saith", I know him, and "keepeth not" his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: "hereby know we" that we are in him.

6 He that "saith" he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

My teacher Paul wanted me not to be ignorant about the importance of the Law and Prophets, and why God had it written for us.

1 Cor. 10: 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

 

[dwight92070]

Close.

Per Rev.19 Lord Jesus comes riding a white horse. I interpret that Rev.6:16 idea, "... the face of Him That sits upon the throne" as being The Father. That event when those will wish to hide is about the last day of this world when Jesus comes in the clouds, and as per Rev.1 every eye shall see Him. How will all eyes see Him coming in the clouds?

On a deeper note, that is about the heavens being rolled up like a scroll, which is an expression for the end of this present 2nd world earth age. God's Wrath there is to involve the "consuming fire" Peter pointed on that last day, the "day of the Lord" (2 Peter 3:10).

Those alive on earth will changed to the "spiritual body" along with that "consuming fire" event. It won't affect us who are still alive on earth, but for the wicked, as shown in Zechariah 14, that consuming fire event will melt their eyes in their sockets, etc., pretty graphic. The Daniel 3 example of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego cast into the hot fiery furnace heated 7 times hotter than necessary, and were not harmed by it because Jesus was with them in it, as that is our example in Christ Jesus on that day, if we are still here alive on earth. Like Apostle Paul taught, on that last day, on the "last trump", we will be 'changed' "at the twinkling of an eye" to our "spiritual body". The heavenly dimension is coming here, to earth.

Per Revelation, the working of Satan is on 666 (1st part of the 6th Seal, 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe, and 6th Vial)

Christ Jesus comes on 777 (end of 6th Seal into the 7th Seal, 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe, 7th Vial which is poured into the "air" ending this present world)

We know the 2nd coming is a single day, because Jesus said that it would be just like the days of Noah, when the flood came on a particular day:
"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the the floodgates of the sky were opened. ... On the very same day Noah and Shem and Ham and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife and the three wives of his sons with them, entered the ark, ..." Genesis 7:11,13
Jesus also compared it to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah:
"The sun had risen over the earth when Lot came to Zoar. Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven, ... " Genesis 19:23-24
So the last day is just that - one last day. There will be no more days after that, which means no literal millennium.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

We know the 2nd coming is a single day, because Jesus said that it would be just like the days of Noah, when the flood came on a particular day:
"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the the floodgates of the sky were opened. ... On the very same day Noah and Shem and Ham and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife and the three wives of his sons with them, entered the ark, ..." Genesis 7:11,13
Jesus also compared it to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah:
"The sun had risen over the earth when Lot came to Zoar. Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven, ... " Genesis 19:23-24
So the last day is just that - one last day. There will be no more days after that, which means no literal millennium.

[Rev 20:2, 4, 6-7 LSB] 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; ...

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I [saw] the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their witness of Jesus and because of the word of God, and who also had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. ...

6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection. Over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are finished, Satan will be released from his prison,


'nuf said.