The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus
- Thread starter Runningman
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Runningman
Well-known member
There’s a Trinitarian on carm who can defend what he believes. I am not unwilling to give that to someone even if I disagree with them still, but cjab on carm is good. I highly respect his intellectual honesty, professionalism, etc.
He does believe that Unitarianism can be defeated using the language of the Greek and Hebrew, though he does seem to suggest by saying that that the Bible does support Unitarianism. It would be difficult to deny that Jesus’ statement about the Father being the only true God isn’t a Unitarian statement. When people deny this it won’t lead to a productive discussion. He also doesn’t obstinately insist Thomas called Jesus God. It technically doesn’t require Thomas was doing that in the Greek. Anyway he’s a good one to talk to.
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Only if we believe your wacky comedic myths, that the elders fell over thus spilling their bowls of prayers before Jesus. Carry on with your delusions and we can humour you if that makes you feel better.That’s called a coping mechanism, you’re essentially projecting your failures onto me.
However. my OP has been a huge success and has ran unchecked and unchallenged on this forum for weeks. The word prayer is indeed never used in conjunction with talking to Jesus and there are no teachings about praying to Jesus in the Bible. You know this now.
Your Unitarian belief that Jesus is not God effectively renders all of Heaven that offers worship to the Father's Throne (where Jesus sits) as idolatrous. If that is a success I'd hate to see what you call failure.That’s called a coping mechanism, you’re essentially projecting your failures onto me.
However. my OP has been a huge success and has ran unchecked and unchallenged on this forum for weeks. The word prayer is indeed never used in conjunction with talking to Jesus and there are no teachings about praying to Jesus in the Bible. You know this now.
Concerning John 17:3, did you and cjab explore the prevailing issue at that time? What does Commandment #1 forbid? Idolatry and polytheism. That's what is being spoken against in John 17:3. It can't be Trinitarianism because John 17:1,2,5 clearly supports the fact that Jesus is given exclusive God Glory by the Father, gives eternal life as only God can, and preexisted with the Father, as the Word of God who is God (John 1:1).
In fact, the Father called the Son "God" in Heb 1:8. So Trinitarianism is not what is spoken against in John 17:3. Only if one runs away from the context of John 17:1-5, Heb 1:8, John 8:58, John 1:1-14, and the whole Bible for that matter can one keep this unsupported hostile view of the Trinity.
Runningman
Well-known member
Not them. Think more along the lines of the Christian groups like Biblical Unitarians or Christadelphians.
Runningman
Well-known member
And your wacky comedic myths about the living creatures and elders getting their hands on the prayers before God did is hilarious too.
Runningman
Well-known member
No idea what you're talking about. Jesus isn't sitting on God's throne in Revelation 4, 5, or 7 where God is being worshipped. I have already explained what Revelation 3 is about several times. Your interpretation is not compatible with Scripture.Your Unitarian belief that Jesus is not God effectively renders all of Heaven that offers worship to the Father's Throne (where Jesus sits) as idolatrous. If that is a success I'd hate to see what you call failure.
Revelation 4 (NIV)
8Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:
“ ‘Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,’ b
who was, and is, and is to come.”
9Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
11“You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”
Revelation 5 (NIV)
11Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12In a loud voice they were saying:
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
14The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Revelation 7 (NIV)
9After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”
11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”
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Runningman
Well-known member
Jesus prayed to God in the 3rd person perspective and lectured Him about religions? You got to be kidding me. Jesus was declaring who God is in his prayer. He didn't invite anyone to change the context. Where is there any mention of pagan gods or any other possible god of John 17:3???
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Runningman
Well-known member
I would also add that just pumping out straight Scripture doesn't assist in refuting Unitarianism. We base our beliefs on Scripture as it is. I even use the highly Trinitarian and dogmatic NIV for most of my Scripture quoting so you all won't keep falsely accusing me of using the NWT (which I have never even read through.) I am simply reading your most biased and heavily Trinitarian Bible that I can find to interact with you all. I even stopped quoting the KJV which is less Trinitarian than some of the modern Bibles.
So the main issue is we are interpreting this differently. With all of the possible interpretations of the Bible, we don't see that Trinitarianism has a monopoly on what the Bible says or a monopoly on how to exegete the Scripture. Unitarianism is based on the historic and orthodox view of who God is. This existed long before the concept of the Trinitarian concept of God. So it's a foundational issue.
civic
Well-known member
No it’s not based on any “ orthodox “ church history or doctrine since scripture, church history and doctrine all support the deity of Christ identifying Him as God in all 3 above areas.
Arius was not orthodox but heterodox
Believe
Active member
The Apostle John made it quite clear that it is impossible to worship the Father and to deny the Son at the same time. The “god” worshipped by Unitarians, is NOT the Father according to 1 John 2:23: Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
To make sure that we did not miss this point, John put the proposition in both a negative and positive form:
Negative: Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father;
Positive: the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
To make sure that we did not miss this point, John put the proposition in both a negative and positive form:
Negative: Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father;
Positive: the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
Runningman
Well-known member
Christianity isn't a new religion with a trinity god. It's the new covenant in Judaism and the same God of the Jews is the God of the Christians. There is one singular person who is God in Judaism named YHWH, sometimes called Father, Lord of Hosts, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the I AM, and several other names and titles Jesus is never called. Ever spoken with a devout Jew before? None of them agree the Trinity is compatible with orthodox Judaism. Nor has it ever been historically. How is it that if Trinitarianism is the orthodox that it's incompatible with the religion it attaches itself to? Yes, Unitarianism is the orthodox and earliest view of God in Judeo-Christian theology.
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Runningman
Well-known member
No idea what you're talking about. All the Unitarians said amen when Peter said “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God..." in Matthew 16:16. Are you brave enough to agree with Peter? Jesus said this is the answer about who he is as revealed by the Father.
Have any examples of anyone denying Jesus? Denying something he said?
civic
Well-known member
You are equivocating. The OT prophets taught the Messiah was Divine as did the psalmists. Judaism has many things wrong as we read in the NT. The Apostles battled the Judaizers who were false teachers.
Next fallacy
I never weighed in on this topic of who got their hands on the prayers first. You're more delusional than I first thought.
What you're doing is running away once again from your wacky comedic myth that the elders fell over thus spilling their bowls of prayers before Jesus. Carry on with your delusions and we can humour you if that makes you feel better.
You are flat out denying Rev 3:21 where Jesus does in fact sit on his Father's Throne.
(Rev 3:21) To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
Since Rev 3:21 blows up your false assertion in your face, the rest of your assertions can be thrown out the window. The Bible verses can stay.
Runningman
Well-known member
They taught the Messiah is a bonafide human who was be sacrificed by God, body, soul, and all for the sins of the people and that the Messiah is himself one of the people. None of them described him as pre-existing as God, or God incarnate, or a member of a triune godhead.
Isaiah 53
10Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life d and be satisfied ;
by his knowledge f my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
Runningman
Well-known member
Here's your train of thought and where it leads. Only God is prayed to, the living creatures and elders got the prayers before God, therefore the living creatures and elders are God. Every hole you've run down is a dead end to idolatry.
Why do you not just believe Jesus who taught to only pray to the Father in Matthew 6:6,9 like the rest of us Christians do?
