The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus

TomL said:
Sorry you have to deny many scriptures to support your misinterpretation

John 1:1–3 (UASV) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him, not one thing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:10 (UASV) — 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through him, and the world did not know him.

Colossians 1:13–16 (KJV 1900) — 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Hebrews 1:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Hebrews 1:8–10 (KJV 1900) — 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Ephesians 3:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJV 1900) — 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

John 17:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

It is a matter of desperation you could think you can contradict so many verses by Rev 13:8


Revelation 13:8 (ESV) — 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.







Open your eyes. Jesus was in heaven; the petitioners are on earth asking in at least one case to do something only God can do

Hello









Receiving a spirit?

Wrong context

This is receiving the spirit of one who is dying. A man who is on earth speaking to Jesus in heaven to function as God

This is your desparation for you are clearly off topic







Seriously?

This YHWH talking to Moses

Numbers 11:16–17 (LEB) — 16 And Yahweh said to Moses, “Gather for me seventy men from the elders of Israel whom you know are elders of the people and their officials; take them to the tent of assembly, and they will stand there with you. 17 I will come down and speak with you there; I will take away from the spirit that is on you, and I will place it on them; and they will bear the burdens of the people with you; you will not bear it alone.

But again you are off topic
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The topic is that there are no teachings to pray to Jesus in the Bible or any verses that demonstrate prayer to Jesus. Let's begin with the facts.

The only lecture, directive, or commandment concerning prayer in the New Testament is to the pray to the Father in Matthew 6:6,9. I think regardless of what we believe theologically, we can come to an agreement that this is the case.

It's also true that the word prayer is never used in conjunction with communicating to Jesus in the Bible.

So already there is the disadvantage of there being no explicit proof for you in Scripture. I have no doubt there will be many "arguments" against this, but ultimately there will be no serious challenges brought against these facts because any such exploration of the claims of the OP will only find that what it says is absolutely true.

Think of this from the perspective of someone who wants to find out who God is and how to pray. They won't find any commandments to pray to Jesus or worship Jesus in Scripture. You're only reading so far into it because you're a theologian and like a lawyer know how to argue. However, you still lack what you need to even prove your point. I am not persuaded by arguments, but rather by facts.

I am actually at the relaxed position in this kind of debate because I have nothing to defend. It's a fact there are no examples speaking to Jesus that say it's a prayer. Since there are others in heaven who were spoken to just like Jesus was then there is nothing to really make communicating with Jesus something that could be seen as distinctly a prayer.

It also may be argued based on some of the things I have seen people claim here that Jesus rejected being prayed to. If John 14:13,14 is Jesus saying he can be prayed to then John 16:23 is Jesus rejecting prayer.
 
Runningman said:
The topic is that there are no teachings to pray to Jesus in the Bible or any verses that demonstrate prayer to Jesus. Let's begin with the facts.

The only lecture, directive, or commandment concerning prayer in the New Testament is to the pray to the Father in Matthew 6:6,9. I think regardless of what we believe theologically, we can come to an agreement that this is the case.

It's also true that the word prayer is never used in conjunction with communicating to Jesus in the Bible.

So already there is the disadvantage of there being no explicit proof for you in Scripture. I have no doubt there will be many "arguments" against this, but ultimately there will be no serious challenges brought against these facts because any such exploration of the claims of the OP will only find that what it says is absolutely true.

Think of this from the perspective of someone who wants to find out who God is and how to pray. They won't find any commandments to pray to Jesus or worship Jesus in Scripture. You're only reading so far into it because you're a theologian and like a lawyer know how to argue. However, you still lack what you need to even prove your point. I am not persuaded by arguments, but rather by facts.

I am actually at the relaxed position in this kind of debate because I have nothing to defend. It's a fact there are no examples speaking to Jesus that say it's a prayer. Since there are others in heaven who were spoken to just like Jesus was then there is nothing to really make communicating with Jesus something that could be seen as distinctly a prayer.

It also may be argued based on some of the things I have seen people claim here that Jesus rejected being prayed to. If John 14:13,14 is Jesus saying he can be prayed to then John 16:23 is Jesus rejecting prayer.
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Sorry Jesus is prayed to and there are multiple examples

2 Corinthians 12:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

John 14:13–14 (KJV 1900) — 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

1 John 5:15 (KJV 1900) — 15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

Acts 7:59 (KJV 1900) — 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

1 Corinthians 1:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

You are merely displaying biblical ignorance and framing your argument
 
Runningman said:
It's funny you talk about things that aren't even in the Bible and you say things like "game over, case close, next fallacy, hope this helps."
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Jesus no man has seen the Father or heard His voice.

Who did Adam and the prophets see and hear who is called I Am ( YHWH ) in the OT ?

case closed :)
 
civic said:
Jesus no man has seen the Father or heard His voice.

Who did Adam and the prophets see and hear who is called I Am ( YHWH ) in the OT ?

case closed :)
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Literally seeing and hearing are not always the same as seeing and hearing in the figurative sense. You're mixing literal with the spiritual.

Here's an example that will hopefully help you.

Using your reasoning, if someone can't see with their eyes they are sinless, but if they have vision then they automatically have sin?

John 9 (KJV)
41Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
 
Runningman said:
Literally seeing and hearing are not always the same as seeing and hearing in the figurative sense. You're mixing literal with the spiritual.

Here's an example that will hopefully help you.

Using your reasoning, if someone can't see with their eyes they are sinless, but if they have eyes then they automatically have sin?

John 9 (KJV)
41Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
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nice DODGE

who did Adam and the OT prophets see and hear in the O.T ?

who did they converse with ?

Jesus said its not the Father.

case closed. :)

you continue to dig yourself into a deeper pit.

hope this helps !!!
 
civic said:
nice DODGE

who did Adam and the OT prophets see and hear in the O.T ?

who did they converse with ?

Jesus said its not the Father.

case closed. :)

you continue to dig yourself into a deeper pit.

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
They didn't literally see God. No one has literally seen God, but God can be seen and heard in the sense of knowing Him as Scripture is already clear about. You were given an example to give you a proper foundation, but you don't want it it seems.

I hope this helps. Case closed. Check mate.
 
Runningman said:
They didn't literally see God. No one has literally seen God, but God can be seen and heard in the sense of knowing Him as Scripture is already clear about. You were given an example to give you a proper foundation, but you don't want it it seems.

I hope this helps. Case closed. Check mate.
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nope they literally saw Him in the garden as Adam walked with God and talked with God.

next fallacy
 
civic said:
no its literal

next.
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The creation story is literal, but there are some elements in the Garden of Eden story that are obviously figurative. It doesn't help to have a literal talking snake because that would make the talking snake the first sinner because telling people to break God's command is a sin, which is what the snake did. However, Romans 5:12 says sin entered the world through Adam. That's one of the many figurative elements in the garden of Eden story.
 
civic said:
no its literal

next.
Click to expand...

Why don't you offer arguments to support that the account of the Garden of Eden was literal?
You can say that you believe, by faith, that it was literal. That is a belief, and we will respect that... but it will not be an objective fact.
We are all called "believers" because we believe things that cannot be proved. That's fine. We accept it. But then we must be sincere in declaring when we believe by faith and what is a fact.
In discerning literal from metaphorical passages, we must be prepared to defend our point of view using reason.

From my side, I can offer arguments to support that it was not literal. We could start with four:
  • Women did not emerge from men's ribs.
  • Snakes don't talk
  • Humans were gatherers and hunters before agriculture
  • Death has always existed in this planet
 
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Pancho Frijoles said:
Why don't you offer arguments to support that the account of the Garden of Eden was literal?
You can say that you believe, by faith, that it was literal. That is a belief, not an objective fact.

From my side, I can offer arguments to support that it was not literal. We could start with four:
  • Women did not emerge from men's ribs.
  • Snakes don't talk
  • Humans were gatherers and hunters before agriculture
  • Death has always existed in this planet
Click to expand...
I guess I cannot fail on some issues he raises here since there are even Christians who think science gives more insight into creation despite science only using cyclic logic to determine ideas of "evolution" and biogenesis.
It is of course the translation issue that led to saying "woman was taken from his ribs." But it could be hard for Pancho to prove what exactly happened at this point in time. He may have a point about death, but it may not have happened in the garden until the fall. He just has no proof of anything he wants to dispute.
 
Pancho Frijoles said:
Why don't you offer arguments to support that the account of the Garden of Eden was literal?
You can say that you believe, by faith, that it was literal. That is a belief, and we will respect that... but it will not be an objective fact.
We are all called "believers" because we believe things that cannot be proved. That's fine. We accept it. But then we must be sincere in declaring when we believe by faith and what is a fact.
In discerning literal from metaphorical passages, we must be prepared to defend our point of view using reason.

From my side, I can offer arguments to support that it was not literal. We could start with four:
  • Women did not emerge from men's ribs.
  • Snakes don't talk
  • Humans were gatherers and hunters before agriculture
  • Death has always existed in this planet
Click to expand...
I guess balaams donkey didn’t talk either.

You obviously don’t believe in miracles of the miraculous.
 
civic said:
Except He is called YHWH many times.
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That's a possibility
Another possibility is that the Messenger speaks and acts on behalf of YHWH and people react as if it were YHWH.

So we have two possibilities
Which of the two is compatible with the declaration that nobody has seen God?
Which of the two is compatible with the declaration that it was a Messenger (Angel) of God?

civic said:
I guess you don’t believe all scripture just some of it.
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Let's not accuse anyone of this.
We debate on the premise that we are honest in approaching the Scripture, but hold different views
 
Pancho Frijoles said:
Donkeys do not talk. Do they?
Certainly, Balaam could have heard the donkey talking in his mind. That's different.
Click to expand...
And water doesn’t turn to wine instantly
Limbs cannot grow back instantly
Blind cannot have sight restored
The dead cannot come back to life

How many miracle will you deny and how many will you except if any ?
 
Pancho Frijoles said:
Donkeys do not talk. Do they?
Certainly, Balaam could have heard the donkey talking in his mind. That's different.
Click to expand...
Shrek said the miracle is getting Donkey to stop talking.

You deny the ability of God to do unusual acts like having a donkey speak. I'm not sure why you think God could create the animals but not use them the way he want. Sure you can burn-out brain cells figuring how the physicality of how this happened. It sure saved Balaam from destruction.

I do think the serpent is an analogical ascription to Satan so that assumptions that snakes had wings or legs is beyond the meaning of the text. But God can have a talking donkey.
 
civic said:
And water doesn’t turn to wine instantly
Limbs cannot grow back instantly
Blind cannot have sight restored
The dead cannot come back to life

How many miracle will you deny and how many will you except if any ?
Click to expand...
I wouldn’t ask Jesus to perform any miracle to believe in Him. Would you?
I know you wouldn’t.

Our faith is not built on water turning into wine or limbs growing back instantly.
Do we need a physical body to touch in order to experience the presence of Jesus in our daily life?
 

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