The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus

[Pancho Frijoles]

You're beating a dead horse at this point. Acts 3:13 proves that Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Additionally, no one has actually literally seen God because He's invisible. Jesus is not invisible. Therefore seeing Jesus is not seeing God. Seeing refers to knowing God.

John 1
18No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Absolutely true.

God cannot be literally "seen" because God is not an object that emits beams of photons, like a star, and that can make our brains figure out a shape or color. As far as I know, the Spirit, Word or Light of God is not a thing within the electromagnetic spectrum.
God is also not an object that reflects the light from other body, like the moon.

So, to start with, what Jesus can do is to reveal God, to declare God.
We cannot see God, but can enjoy the revelation that Jesus bring us, as if we were seeing God.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Unitarian.theology is indeed a "dead horse" as evidenced by your continuous avoidance of John 6:46 and John 14:9. That we can agree on.

In contrast to you I do acknowledge Acts 3:13 but Ex 3 describes a Divine Appearance. Do you understand that fact?

If by "Divine Appearance" you mean the appearance of a Messenger from God, I agree it was a divine appearance.
If by "Divine Appearance" you mean the appearance of God, the Bible disagrees explicitly with you, as it says that it was a Messenger who spoke to Moses from the burning bush.

So please don't show arrogance when asking @Runningman if he understands that fact.
Start by asking yourself if you understand that fact.
In an ultimate analysis, nobody truly understands that fact !!

 

[TomL]

I don't understand your post, my brother.
The verses you are quoting are about Zechariah, the prophet, speaking in first person.
YHWH is sending Zechariah.

Read it

Zechariah is not speaking

Zechariah 2:6–11 (LEB) — 6 “Woe! Woe! Flee from the land of the north,” declares Yahweh, “for I have scattered you like the four winds of the heavens,” declares Yahweh. 7 “Woe, Zion! Escape, you inhabitants of the daughter of Babylon!” 8 For thus said Yahweh of hosts, after glory he sent me against the nations plundering you: Truly, the one touching you is touching the apple of his eye. 9 “Yes, look! I am going to wave my hand against them, and they will become plunder for their servants, and you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me. 10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for look, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares Yahweh. 11 “Many nations will join themselves to Yahweh on that day, and they will be my people, and I will dwell in your midst. And you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me to you.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Verses like 1 Kings 12:22 and 1 Ch 17:3 certainly precluded Unitarianism. They clearly reveal that the Pre-Incarnate Word of God was a Communicative Person who had all the attributes of a Person (Mind, Will, Individuality, etc...)

• 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
• 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,

This obviously proves that the Word of God (Jesus), who is Uncreated (John 1:3), cannot possibly be just a thing (a word) or even an angel. He is God

Those verses do not teach that the Word of God was a Person.
Just like in hundreds of other instances, this is a just a figurative way of speaking.
Jews, Muslisms, Christians, Baha'i, we all use this language, and we never think we are talking about a person. Ask any Catholic theologian if those verses refer to a Person coming to visit Shemaia or to Nathan.

Consider these two verses:

For the word of God is alive, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12)

He had in His right hand seven stars, and out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword. His appearance was like the sun shining brightly. (Revelation 1:16)

Why in the vision of the Book of Revelation the two-edged sword comes from the mouth of Christ?
Is Christ Himself the Word of God? Is Christ a Sword?
Christ speaks the words of God. The Word of God comes from his mouth. That's why Christ is referred, metaphorically, as the Word of God.
So, The Word of God is not a person. The Spirit of God is not a person. The Wisdom of God (Proverbs 6) is not a Person.
The Love of God is not a Person!
The Bible says "God is Love". Love is coeternal with God. So, John could also have started his gospel saying: "In the beginning there was Love. And Love was with God. And Love was God". That would not make the Love of God a distinct person within the Godhead.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Read it

Zechariah is not speaking

Zechariah 2:6–11 (LEB) — 6 “Woe! Woe! Flee from the land of the north,” declares Yahweh, “for I have scattered you like the four winds of the heavens,” declares Yahweh. 7 “Woe, Zion! Escape, you inhabitants of the daughter of Babylon!” 8 For thus said Yahweh of hosts, after glory he sent me against the nations plundering you: Truly, the one touching you is touching the apple of his eye. 9 “Yes, look! I am going to wave my hand against them, and they will become plunder for their servants, and you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me. 10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for look, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares Yahweh. 11 “Many nations will join themselves to Yahweh on that day, and they will be my people, and I will dwell in your midst. And you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me to you.

Zechariah is speaking. The chapter starts with Zechariah telling us his vision: "And I lifted up my eyes, and I saw a man with a measuring cord in his hand. And I said, “Where are you going?” etc.

Read the whole chapter again.
Remember: God sent prophets, messengers to convey His message. So, why would you think that God would send Himself? I don't get it. Do you get it?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Lets see

Isaiah 63:9–16 (KJV 1900) — 9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, And the angel of his presence saved them: In his love and in his pity he redeemed them; And he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. 10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: Therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. 11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he that put his holy Spirit within him? 12 That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, Dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name? 13 That led them through the deep, As an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble? 14 As a beast goeth down into the valley, The Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: So didst thou lead thy people, To make thyself a glorious name. 15 Look down from heaven, and behold From the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory: Where is thy zeal and thy strength, The sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained? 16 Doubtless thou art our father, Though Abraham be ignorant of us, And Israel acknowledge us not: Thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; Thy name is from everlasting.

We have the messenger (angel) of his presence who is called YHWH and God in Scripture - this is the precarnate Christ - word who was God

We have the Holy Spirit

And we have the Father (YHWH)

How can a Messenger of God be God?
What is the meaning of "Messenger" or "Angel"?

 

[TomL]

How can a Messenger of God be God?
What is the meaning of "Messenger" or "Angel"?

Because the bible says he is

God as a person has a messenger who is what he is -deity -God

Isaiah 63:9–16 (KJV 1900) — 9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, And the angel of his presence saved them: In his love and in his pity he redeemed them; And he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. 10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: Therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. 11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he that put his holy Spirit within him? 12 That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, Dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name? 13 That led them through the deep, As an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble? 14 As a beast goeth down into the valley, The Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: So didst thou lead thy people, To make thyself a glorious name. 15 Look down from heaven, and behold From the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory: Where is thy zeal and thy strength, The sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained? 16 Doubtless thou art our father, Though Abraham be ignorant of us, And Israel acknowledge us not: Thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; Thy name is from everlasting.

We have the messenger (angel) of his presence who is called YHWH and God in Scripture - this is the precarnate Christ - word who was God

We have the Holy Spirit

And we have the Father (YHWH)

The word translate angel is

My Bible Word Study

Lemma

מַלְאָךְ mǎl·ʾāḵ messenger; messengers of God (prophets, priests, angels); angel of God, Yahweh

LXHOTLEX messenger; messengers of God (prophets, priests, angels); angel of God, Yahweh

2 Sam 11:19And charged the messenger, saying, When thou hast made an end of telling the matters of the war unto the king,
2 Sam 11:22So the messenger went, and came and shewed David all that Joab had sent him for.
2 Sam 11:23And the messenger said unto David, Surely the men prevailed against us, and came out unto us into the field, and we were upon them even unto the entering of the gate.
2 Sam 11:25Then David said unto the messenger, Thus shalt thou say unto Joab, Let not this thing displease thee, for the sword devoureth one as well as another: make thy battle more strong against the city, and overthrow it: and encourage thou him.

 

[TomL]

Zechariah is speaking. The chapter starts with Zechariah telling us his vision: "And I lifted up my eyes, and I saw a man with a measuring cord in his hand. And I said, “Where are you going?” etc.

Read the whole chapter again.
Remember: God sent prophets, messengers to convey His message. So, why would you think that God would send Himself? I don't get it. Do you get it?

Not here in chap2

Zechariah 2:10–12 (ESV) — 10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for behold, I come and I will dwell in your midst, declares the LORD. 11 And many nations shall join themselves to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people. And I will dwell in your midst, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you. 12 And the LORD will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land, and will again choose Jerusalem.”

Zechariah is not coming and dwelling in your midst

That is YHWH speaking

Zechariah 2:10–11 (LEB) — 10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for look, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares Yahweh. 11 “Many nations will join themselves to Yahweh on that day, and they will be my people, and I will dwell in your midst. And you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me to you.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

God as a person has a messenger who is what he is -deity -God

Greeks believed that Hermes conveyed the messages from Zeus, and that Hermes was a god, just like Zeus.
Jews and early Christians thought that God is One Single Person, with One Single Mind and Will... not a class or category that included several beings who shared his deity.


Jews

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Not here in chap2

Zechariah 2:10–12 (ESV) — 10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for behold, I come and I will dwell in your midst, declares the LORD. 11 And many nations shall join themselves to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people. And I will dwell in your midst, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you. 12 And the LORD will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land, and will again choose Jerusalem.”

Zechariah is not coming and dwelling in your midst

In these last verses the "I" refers to God.
In the first verses you quoted, the "I" refers to Zechariah.

May I respectfully ask: Why do you spend so much time trying to prove that God sends Himself, when throughout the Bible God sends another person to convey his message?
Do you really believe what you are trying to prove here?
Please use your reasoning.
The Bible is as much a gift from God as our reason. Furthermore, reason precedes the Bible.

 

[TomL]

Greeks believed that Hermes conveyed the messages from Zeus, and that Hermes was a god, just like Zeus.
Jews and early Christians thought that God is One Single Person, with One Single Mind and Will... not a class or category that included several beings who shared his deity.

View attachment 909
Jews

Well this is bible - deal with it

Exodus 23:20–21 (KJV 1900) — 20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Well this is bible - deal with it

Exodus 23:20–21 (KJV 1900) — 20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

Is the angel of Exodus 23:20-21 God? Or is it an angel sent by God?
The text says "Angel".

You say "Well, this is Bible, deal with it" but you don't seem to be willing to deal with the fact that an angel is an angel, and that God is God.
Why, my friend?

 

[TomL]

Is the angel of Exodus 23:20-21 God? Or is it an angel sent by God?
The text says "Angel".

You say "Well, this is Bible, deal with it" but you don't seem to be willing to deal with the fact that an angel is an angel, and that God is God.
Why, my friend?

The point there is

Exodus 23:20–21 (KJV 1900) — 20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

the angel has the name of YHWH in him


and as shown

Exodus 3:1–6 (LEB) — 1 And Moses was a shepherd with the flock of Jethro, his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the west of the desert, and he came to the mountain of God, to Horeb. 2 And the angel of Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush, and he looked, and there was the bush burning with fire, but the bush was not being consumed. 3 And Moses said, “Let me turn aside and see this great sight. Why does the bush not burn up?” 4 And Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, and God called to him from the midst of the bush, and he said, “Moses, Moses.” And he said, “Here I am.” 5 And he said, “You must not come near to here. Take off your sandals from on your feet, because the place on which you are standing, it is holy ground.” 6 And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face because he was afraid of looking at God.

the angel (mesenger) is called YAHWEH and God

When you see the word angel you think created being but it can just refer to a messenger

According to Isaiah it was the angel of his presence which led the Israelities up out of Egypt

Isaiah 63:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, And the angel of his presence saved them: In his love and in his pity he redeemed them; And he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.

Exodus 33:12–17 (KJV 1900) — 12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight. 13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people. 14 And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest. 15 And he said unto him, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence. 16 For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth. 17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

ַ

 

[Selah]

This is an awesome piece of Scripture.

So it was, that while they were there, the days were completed for her to be delivered. And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn. Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night. And behold, an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were greatly afraid. Then the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people. "For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. "And this will be the sign to you: You will find a Babe wrapped in swaddling cloths, lying in a manger." And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying: "Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace, goodwill toward men!"

- Luke 2:6-14 (NKJV)

Strong's Concordance defines "glory of the Lord" #7935 as "Shekanyah, shek-an-yah; meaning yah has dwelt." It indicates that God dwelt there.

Selah

 

[Selah]

But the Angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" So he said, "Here I am." And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." Then Abraham lifted his eyes and looked, and there behind him was a ram caught in a thicket by its horns. So Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up for a burnt offering instead of his son. And Abraham called the name of the place, The-LORD-Will-Provide; as it is said to this day, "In the Mount of The LORD it shall be provided." Then the Angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time out of heaven, and said: "By Myself I have sworn, says the LORD, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son — "blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."

- Genesis 22:11-18 (NKJV)

 

[TomL]

But the Angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" So he said, "Here I am." And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." Then Abraham lifted his eyes and looked, and there behind him was a ram caught in a thicket by its horns. So Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up for a burnt offering instead of his son. And Abraham called the name of the place, The-LORD-Will-Provide; as it is said to this day, "In the Mount of The LORD it shall be provided." Then the Angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time out of heaven, and said: "By Myself I have sworn, says the LORD, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son — "blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."

- Genesis 22:11-18 (NKJV)

Yes again the angel of the LORD is identified as YAHWEH

Genesis 22:15–17 (LEB) — 15 And the angel of Yahweh called to Abraham a second time from heaven. 16 And he said, “I swear by myself, declares Yahweh, that because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only child, 17 that I will certainly bless you and greatly multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven, and as the sand that is by the shore of the sea. And your offspring will take possession of the gate of his enemies.

or Jehovah for those who would so insist

Genesis 22:15–17 (UASV) — 15 And the angel of Jehovah called to Abraham a second time from the heavens, 16 and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares Jehovah, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore; and your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies.


t

 

[TomL]

Yes again the angel of the LORD is identified as YAHWEH

Genesis 22:15–17 (LEB) — 15 And the angel of Yahweh called to Abraham a second time from heaven. 16 And he said, “I swear by myself, declares Yahweh, that because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only child, 17 that I will certainly bless you and greatly multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven, and as the sand that is by the shore of the sea. And your offspring will take possession of the gate of his enemies.

or Jehovah for those who would so insist

Genesis 22:15–17 (UASV) — 15 And the angel of Jehovah called to Abraham a second time from the heavens, 16 and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares Jehovah, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore; and your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies.

Continued identification of the Angel of the LORD as Yahweh

Genesis 16:7–13 (LEB) — 7 And the angel of Yahweh found her at a spring of water in the wilderness, at the spring by the road of Shur. 8 And he said to Hagar, the female slave of Sarai, “From where have you come, and where are you going?” And she said, “I am fleeing from the presence of Sarai my mistress.” 9 Then the angel of Yahweh said to her, “Return to your mistress and submit yourself under her authority.” 10 And the angel of Yahweh said to her, “I will greatly multiply your offspring, so that they cannot be counted for their abundance.” 11 And the angel of Yahweh said to her: “Behold, you are pregnant and shall have a son. And you shall call his name Ishmael, for Yahweh has listened to your suffering. 12 And he shall be a wild donkey of a man, his hand will be against everyone, and the hand of everyone will be against him, and he will live in hostility with all his brothers.” 13 So she called the name of Yahweh who spoke to her, “You are El-Roi,” for she said, “Here I have seen after he who sees me.”

 

[TomL]

Genesis 31:11–13 (LEB) — 11 Then the angel of God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob,’ and I said, ‘Here I am.’ 12 And he said, ‘Lift up your eyes and see—all the rams mounting the flock are streaked, speckled, and dappled, for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. 13 I am the God of Bethel where you anointed a stone pillar, where you made a vow to me. Now get up, go out from this land and return to the land of your birth.’ ”

Jacob had anointed a stone pillar and made a vow to the angel of God who is the God of Bethel

the reference is to

Gen 28:18-22

Genesis 28:18–22 (LEB) — 18 And Jacob rose early in the morning, and he took the stone that he had put under his head and set it up as a stone pillar, and poured oil on top of it. 19 And he called the name of that place Bethel; however, the name of the city was formerly Luz. 20 And Jacob made a vow saying, “If God will be with me and protect me on this way that I am going, and gives me food to eat and clothing to wear, 21 and if I return in peace to the house of my father, then Yahweh will become my God. 22 And this stone that I have set up as a pillar shall be the house of God, and of all that you give to me I will certainly give a tenth to you.”

Where the God of bethel is Yahweh

 

[TomL]

The angel of the LORD is Jehovah

Judges 2:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you. 2 And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this? 3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you. 4 And it came to pass, when the angel of the LORD spake these words unto all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voice, and wept. 5 And they called the name of that place Bochim: and they sacrificed there unto the LORD.

The angel of the LORD stated I will never break my covenant with you.

the covenant was spoken of here

Deuteronomy 31:16 (UASV) — 16 And Jehovah said to Moses, “Look, you are about to lie down with your forefathers. Then this people will rise and play the prostitute after the foreign gods among them in the land that they are entering, and they will forsake me and break my covenant which I have made with them.

It was Jehovah's covenant

 

[TomL]

The angel of Yahweh as Yahweh continued

Judges 6:11–14 (LEB) — 11 The angel of Yahweh came and sat under the oak that was at Ophrah that belonged to Jehoash the Abiezrite; and Gideon his son was threshing wheat in the winepress to hide it from the Midianites. 12 The angel of Yahweh appeared to him and said to him, “Yahweh is with you, you mighty warrior.” 13 Gideon said to him, “Excuse me, my lord. If Yahweh is with us, why then has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonderful deeds that our ancestors recounted to us, saying, ‘Did not Yahweh bring us up from Egypt?’ But now Yahweh has forsaken us; he has given us into the palm of Midian.” 14 And Yahweh turned to him and said, “Go in this your strength, and you will deliver Israel from the palm of Midian. Did I not send you?”