The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus

[Runningman]

Then with Acts 17:24 you would be denying that Jesus was needed in our justification. Also, you simply use this as a proof text that is out of context. Paul was addressing people worshiping false gods and telling them that their actions involved a wrong perception of God. Yet, we know the Levitical priests did serve God with the aid of their hands. So we have more confirmation of your attempts to interpret scripture.

God doesn't require human intervention to meet his needs, but God had already authorized Jesus and others to forgive sins even prior to the cross. This should be a wake up call for you. Are you ready to know the real Jesus?

 

[civic]

What is recorded in Acts 20:28 is clear about it being in regards to a human who is of God's (OWN) family. Your interpretation doesn't match any recognizable religion.

Come right out and say it. Do you believe God is a Spirit and that an invisible Spirit has blood?

no the verse says God which He ( God) has purchased with His ( Gods ) own blood.


King James Bible
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

New American Standard Bible
Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.


Both the English above and the Greek below declare its God ( Theou ) not the Son ( huio )


The Greek word Huios ( son ) is not in the original Greek manuscripts. Its used 382 times in the Greek New Testament and Acts 20:28 in not one of them. But God ( Theou, Θεοῦ ) sure is.

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
προσέχετε οὖν ἑαυτοῖς καὶ παντὶ τῷ ποιμνίῳ, ἐν ᾧ ὑμᾶς τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον ἔθετο ἐπισκόπους, ποιμαίνειν τὴν ἐκκλησίαν τοῦ Θεοῦ, ἣν περιεποιήσατο διὰ τοῦ ἰδίου αἵματος.

Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
προσέχετε οὖν ἑαυτοῖς καὶ παντὶ τῷ ποιμνίῳ ἐν ᾧ ὑμᾶς τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον ἔθετο ἐπισκόπους ποιμαίνειν τὴν ἐκκλησίαν τοῦ θεοῦ ἣν περιεποιήσατο διὰ τοῦ ἰδίου αἵματος

Nestle Greek New Testament 1904
προσέχετε ἑαυτοῖς καὶ παντὶ τῷ ποιμνίῳ, ἐν ᾧ ὑμᾶς τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον ἔθετο ἐπισκόπους, ποιμαίνειν τὴν ἐκκλησίαν τοῦ Θεοῦ, ἣν περιεποιήσατο διὰ τοῦ αἵματος τοῦ ἰδίου.

Westcott and Hort 1881
προσέχετε ἑαυτοῖς καὶ παντὶ τῷ ποιμνίῳ, ἐν ᾧ ὑμᾶς τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον ἔθετο ἐπισκόπους, ποιμαίνειν τὴν ἐκκλησίαν τοῦ θεοῦ, ἣν περιεποιήσατο διὰ τοῦ αἵματος τοῦ ἰδίου.

Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
προσέχετε ἑαυτοῖς καὶ παντὶ τῷ ποιμνίῳ, ἐν ᾧ ὑμᾶς τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον ἔθετο ἐπισκόπους, ποιμαίνειν τὴν ἐκκλησίαν τοῦ θεοῦ, ἣν περιεποιήσατο διὰ τοῦ αἵματος τοῦ ἰδίου.

conclusion: your interpretation is false, built upon the lies of men and not the word of God which I have proven.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

What is recorded in Acts 20:28 is clear about it being in regards to a human who is of God's (OWN) family. Your interpretation doesn't match any recognizable religion.

Come right out and say it. Do you believe God is a Spirit and that an invisible Spirit has blood?

You are leaving what the text actually says and are deflecting once again. The fact is you don't believe the Bible when it contradicts your manmade theology. We are still discussing the text in Acts 20:28. Oh and I have the biblical and true answer to your question but I will not entertain it until you agree that the text declares" God which He purchased with His own blood. "

When You admit the text is true and not your opinion that God purchased the church with His own blood we can move forward.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Runningman]

You are leaving what the text actually says and are deflecting once again. The fact is you don't believe the Bible when it contradicts your manmade theology. We are still discussing the text in Acts 20:28. Oh and I have the biblical and true answer to your question but I will not entertain it until you agree that the text declares" God which He purchased with His own blood. "

When You admit the text is true and not your opinion that God purchased the church with His own blood we can move forward.

hope this helps !!!

These versions are more along the lines of a literal translation for Acts 20:28 even though the word for "son" is not actually in the verse. It's implied through the context and grammar. This is what the Greek actually says because God doesn't have blood. It's because Jesus and God aren't the same person.

For example, the Lamb purchased for God (the action is moving from one location to another location) with his blood. Couldn't be any clearer.

Revelation 5
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;


Contemporary English Version
Look after yourselves and everyone the Holy Spirit has placed in your care. Be like shepherds to God's church. It is the flock he bought with the blood of his own Son.

Good News Translation
So keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock which the Holy Spirit has placed in your care. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he made his own through the blood of his Son.

NET Bible
Watch out for yourselves and for all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son.

Darby Bible Translation
Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, wherein the Holy Spirit has set you as overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own.

I hope that helps! Let me know if you're cleared up now. Next fallacy.

 

[civic]

These versions are more along the lines of a literal translation for Acts 20:28 even though the word for "son" is not actually in the verse. It's implied through the context and grammar. This is what the Greek actually says because God doesn't have blood. It's because Jesus and God aren't the same person.

For example, the Lamb purchase for God (the action is moving from one location to another location) with his blood.

Revelation 5
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;


Contemporary English Version
Look after yourselves and everyone the Holy Spirit has placed in your care. Be like shepherds to God's church. It is the flock he bought with the blood of his own Son.

Good News Translation
So keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock which the Holy Spirit has placed in your care. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he made his own through the blood of his Son.

NET Bible
Watch out for yourselves and for all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son.

Darby Bible Translation
Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, wherein the Holy Spirit has set you as overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own.

I hope that helps! Let me know if you're cleared up now. Next fallacy.

Nothing is implied in the verse. It’s literal and means what it literally says.

You are reading your own theology into the passage your personal bias. That’s eisegesis not exegesis

hope this helps !!!

 

[Runningman]

Nothing is implied in the verse. It’s literal and means what it literally says.

You are reading your own theology into the passage your personal bias. That’s eisegesis not exegesis

hope this helps !!!

It being the blood of God's "OWN" son is implied in the verse because the word Own refers to what is God's in a familial sense. We use this in English as well.

It's even in the Greek .

G2398. idios
Strong's Lexicon
idios: own, private, personal, peculiar
Original Word: ἴδιος
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: idios
Pronunciation: EE-dee-os
Phonetic Spelling: (id'-ee-os)
Definition: own, private, personal, peculiar
Meaning: one's own, belonging to one, private, personal; one's own people, one's own family, home, property.

Word Origin: A primary word

Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: The Hebrew equivalent often used in similar contexts is "בַּעַל" (ba'al - H1167), which can mean owner, master, or husband, emphasizing possession or relationship.

Usage: The Greek word "idios" is used to denote something that belongs to oneself, is private, or is peculiar to an individual. It often emphasizes personal possession or association, distinguishing what is one's own from what belongs to others. In the New Testament, "idios" is used to highlight personal responsibility, ownership, or relationship.

Cultural and Historical Background: In the Greco-Roman world, the concept of personal ownership and identity was significant. The use of "idios" would resonate with the cultural understanding of property, family, and individual rights. In a society where lineage and personal honor were highly valued, distinguishing what was "one's own" was crucial for maintaining social order and personal dignity.

source: https://biblehub.com/greek/2398.htm

 

[Johann]

My argument is essentially that Acts 20:28 refers to the blood of God's own family, i.e., His son. For you to argue against this, you must begin denying that Jesus is the son of God. Do you deny that Jesus is God's begotten son?

Do you deny Jesus is God?

J.

 

[civic]

Do you deny Jesus is God?

J.

yes he is a unitarian/arian the same early chuch heresy as Arias.

 

[Johann]

yes he is a unitarian/arian the same early chuch heresy as Arias.

Thank for the heads up brother.

J.

 

[civic]

Thank for the heads up brother.

J.

you are welcome my friend.

 

[Runningman]

Do you deny Jesus is God?

J.

Yes and also Jesus denied being God. I just go with what he taught.

 

[Peterlag]

Yes and also Jesus denied being God. I just go with what he taught.

And I on that note I give you this for your enjoyment...

We cannot approach the Bible with wisdom and “reason together” if we must invent and use non-biblical phrases to support our theology. The Bible calls Jesus the “Son” of God for the simple reason that he had a beginning. Jesus had been part of God’s plan since the foundation of the world, but he began his actual life when God “fathered” him and Mary conceived him in her womb. There are many verses where Jesus and God are portrayed as two separate beings and there are too many examples to list, but just to mention a few we can look at when Jesus told the rich young ruler that he was not good, but “God” was good. Also Jesus grew in favor with “God” and with men, and he told his disciples“ Believe in God; believe also in me."

I find it interesting that the Church Epistles were authored by both God and Christ and we see this in 1 Corinthians 1:3 that says “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” There's a lot of Scripture that shows Jesus to be separate and distinct from“God” which is what the people of the time believed and expected. The Trinitarian explanation of these verses is that Jesus is God and so “God” means “the Father” when Jesus speaks of himself and “God.” But the Bible never says that. It's only because Trinitarian doctrine asserts that Jesus is God that the assumption is made that “God” means “the Father” when Jesus and God appear together.

 

[dwight92070]

Not much to comment on due to sheer lack of supporting verses. One may argue to the contrary, but there are no explicit examples where someone taught to pray to Jesus in the Bible. There are no examples of the word "pray" or "prayer" being used in conjunction with communicating to Jesus.

The Bible teaches to pray to God the Father. That's it.

Matthew 6​

6But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.​

​

9So then, this is how you should pray:​

‘Our Father in heaven,​

hallowed be Your name.​

"To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours: ... " 1 Corinthians 1:2

It appears that the Corinthians did not get your memo to not pray to Jesus.

You are correct that there is no particular teaching to pray to Jesus, like there is to pray to the Father. But the scripture is clear that doing so is not forbidden. In fact, we have examples of Christians doing just that.

Acts 7:59-60 Stephen, as he was being stoned "called on the Lord and said, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.' " and "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Of course, you will nitpick and say that he wasn't praying, he was just calling on the Lord. False teachers specialize in nitpicking. By the way, if Jesus was not God, then why would Stephen be calling on the name of a man?

Also, if Jesus was just a man, then why is Stephen communicating with a dead man - or even a live man in heaven? Do you communicate with persons who have died? That's called necromancy and it's forbidden by God. But it is encouraged if you are communicating with Jesus, because He is God.

" ... what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ." 1 John 1:3

Please explain how we can have fellowship with both the Father and the Son without talking/praying to them.

Romans 10:13 "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." Calling on Jesus is praying to Him. The last time I checked, the name of the Lord is Jesus. If Jesus is just a man, then calling on Him or praying to Him will not get you or anyone saved. But if He is God, it will.

 

[Runningman]

"To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours: ... " 1 Corinthians 1:2

It appears that the Corinthians did not get your memo to not pray to Jesus.

You are correct that there is no particular teaching to pray to Jesus, like there is to pray to the Father. But the scripture is clear that doing so is not forbidden. In fact, we have examples of Christians doing just that.

Acts 7:59-60 Stephen, as he was being stoned "called on the Lord and said, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.' " and "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Of course, you will nitpick and say that he wasn't praying, he was just calling on the Lord. False teachers specialize in nitpicking. By the way, if Jesus was not God, then why would Stephen be calling on the name of a man?

Also, if Jesus was just a man, then why is Stephen communicating with a dead man - or even a live man in heaven? Do you communicate with persons who have died? That's called necromancy and it's forbidden by God. But it is encouraged if you are communicating with Jesus, because He is God.

" ... what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ." 1 John 1:3

While it's true that I will nitpick the fact that the word for pray isn't used in conjunction with speaking to Jesus in the Bible, I don't believe that prayer is fundamentally just speaking. You and I may just speak to one another without it becoming a prayer.

I also don't believe that speaking to someone who died is necessarily necromancy. For example, people speak to Jesus and it isn't necromancy. John also spoke of communicating with an elder in heaven in Revelation 7:13,14 and that wasn't necromancy.

So ideas from the Bible can be taken too far and not really make sense. So in order to reflect on the points you made, did John practice necromancy in Revelation 7:13,14?

Please explain how we can have fellowship with both the Father and the Son without talking/praying to them.

Romans 10:13 "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." Calling on Jesus is praying to Him. The last time I checked, the name of the Lord is Jesus. If Jesus is just a man, then calling on Him or praying to Him will not get you or anyone saved. But if He is God, it will.

Like Romans 8 says, but speaking to Jesus isn't forbidden by the Bible. Prayer is different than speaking.

Romans 8
26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

 

[TibiasDad]

So you reject the meaning of of Acts 20:28 and believe a Spirit has blood?

Luke 24 (ESV)
39See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

John 4 (ESV)
24God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

<sigh>
The Father is Spirit
The Spirit is Spirit
The Word was Spirit before he took on flesh, and all three are, in nature of being, God.

You can’t cease to be what we are by nature, thus the Word taking on human form does not cease to be God, he simply adds being human to what he already is.

Thus, the Word become flesh is God and has blood, but not the Father or the Spirit, who are also God but are not “human” in nature of being.

Doug

 

[Peterlag]

<sigh>
The Father is Spirit
The Spirit is Spirit
The Word was Spirit before he took on flesh, and all three are, in nature of being, God.

You can’t cease to be what we are by nature, thus the Word taking on human form does not cease to be God, he simply adds being human to what he already is.

Thus, the Word become flesh is God and has blood, but not the Father or the Spirit, who are also God but are not “human” in nature of being.

Doug

There's problems with that. Such as there's no teaching on the trinity anywhere in the Bible. No whole paragraph or chapter teaching that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[Fred]

Please explain how we can have fellowship with both the Father and the Son without talking/praying to them.

He believes it is okay to talk to Jesus. He does himself, but praying to Him is a no-no.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/thomas-my-lord-and-my-god.2310/page-13#post-141257

 

[civic]

He believes it is okay to talk to Jesus. He does himself, but praying to Him is a no-no.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/thomas-my-lord-and-my-god.2310/page-13#post-141257

thats strange since talking to God is in a sense praying to God.

 

[synergy]

There's problems with that. Such as there's no teaching on the trinity anywhere in the Bible. No whole paragraph or chapter teaching that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.

In Heaven, is that what all the unitarian will say when everyone else is directing prayer and worship to the Throne where both the Father and Son are seated? Unitarian judaizers will be only ones in Heaven who will refuse to pray to and worship the Son, with folded hands, in contrast to everyone else in heaven.

Rev 3
21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches

Lord, I pray that all judaizers have an ear to hear your words.

 

[Fred]

thats strange since talking to God is in a sense praying to God.

It's ludicrous.

1. Does Jesus fully know his heart when he speaks?
2. Does Jesus fully know the hearts of all others when they do so as well?
3. Can one talk silently to Jesus?
4. Can one sing to Jesus out loud?
5. Can one sing to Jesus silently within his/her heart?