The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus
- Thread starter Runningman
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The discussion on the Unitarian vs. Trinitarian understanding of scripture has not quite achieved an agreement on details, even in minor details. Those with an unorthodox view have not come with possible questioning of their view of scripture but have only come to persuade people to accept it despite the many deficiencies. Oh well. Hopefully there are enough warnings to keep people for falling for those unorthodox views.
civic
Well-known member
things that make you go hmmmm- I have never witnesses such resistance to the blood of Jesus and His atonement for sin.
Acts 20:28- Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Heb 9:12-He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption
Heb 9:16-18- In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood.
Heb 9:22- According to the law, in fact, nearly everything must be purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Eph 1:7- In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
Matt 26:28- for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
Rev 1:5- and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and has released us from our sins by His blood,
conclusion: reject Jesus blood atonement and you have no forgiveness for your sins and one is not released from their sins and forgiven.
hope this helps !!!
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MTMattie
Well-known member
Ummmmm
Trinitarian is an unorthodox view? Well, alrighty then......
TibiasDad
Well-known member
I didn't think I would be misunderstood. I was hoping that the discussion has shared enough warnings to avoid the unorthodox Unitarian theories.
civic
Well-known member
Sure seems that way His death was in vain as was the blood He poured out for the forgiveness of sins. I’ll go on record saying His resurrection was not necessary for salvation either. Another Gospel, another jesus.
MTMattie
Well-known member
You wrote it this way
The discussion on the Unitarian vs. Trinitarian understanding of scripture has not quite achieved an agreement on details, even in minor details. Those with an unorthodox view have not come with possible questioning of their view of scripture but have only come to persuade people to accept it despite the many deficiencies. Oh well. Hopefully there are enough warnings to keep people for falling for those unorthodox views.
For me it reads
"The discussion on the Unitarian vs. Trinitarian understanding of scripture has not quite achieved an agreement on details, even in minor details
.
Meaning that neither Unitarian or Trinitarian has achieved agreement yada yada.
Continuing
"Those with an unorthodox view have not come with possible questioning of their view of scripture but have only come to persuade people to accept it despite the many deficiencies."
Meaning as both Unitarian vs. Trinitarian see the other as being unorthodox.
Continuing
Hopefully there are enough warnings to keep people for falling for those unorthodox views.
Meaning that the conclusion is hope for the reader to not fall for either.
Conclusion... as posted in #2346.
BTW. You are certainly allowed your opinion... but this Trinitarian wont agree I am unorthodox in thinking.
Blessings
Why elaborate on something that I did not write clearly enough to convey the idea for you to follow?
I hope you accept me as one of those who is holding to and defending the Trinitarian doctrine. That is what many of us are promoting here.
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civic
Well-known member
I think it was just a misunderstanding how it was worded. It threw me off for a moment but I know you are a trinitarian which is the orthodox view.
Sure. Other than learning more reasons why the Trinitarian doctrine makes sense (and a lot due to Mattie and your contributions), these debates with the Unitarians has not led to any confession of weaknesses in their views nor have convinced Trinitarian followers to go Unitarian.I think it was just a misunderstanding how it was worded. It threw me off for a moment but I know you are a trinitarian which is the orthodox view.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Dear @TibiasDad and @civic
Was the the sacrifice of Jesus was in vain for the two of you? For me it was not in vain.
You are the Christians here. I am not… and I will tell you that Jesus sacrifice is of infinite relevance to me.
For me, Jesus example has moved me to crucify the old man and be resurrected with Him to a new life.
God’s plan for me was to be born in a Christian country and be raised hearing about Jesus, his example and teachings.
I praise God for that.
Runningman
Well-known member
God can't die though. What's your workaround for saying both are true?
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Runningman
Well-known member
I've never met Christian who tells people that Christianity is the wrong religion. What religion are you?
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Bulls and goats are animals. No animal’s blood is sufficient to atone for sin, only Jesus’s blood. That is the point of Hebrews 9.
Without blood there is no remission from sin!
To obey is better than sacrifice; outward ritual is meaningless if the heart is not sincere. The sacrifice is still required in conjunction with the humility of heart.
The question is never about whether is sacrifice necessary, but rather what sacrifice is sufficient to atone.
Then you have no salvation!
Doug
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
To Me, Jesus sacrifice has an infinite value
It inspired me to crucify my old man and be resurrected into a new life… the life of love and obedience that Jesus exemplified.
What is the importance of Jesus sacrifice for you, @MTMattie? How has it changed your life?
Runningman
Well-known member
I generally agree with what you said, though Arianism was the orthodoxy in the third and fourth century even though what constituted Trinitarianism at that time would be unrecognizable and probably heretical to most in the present day. Trinitarianism wasn't fully developed and hashed out until around 325 AD. It hasn't always been the mainstream. It's interesting to me how perspectives change over time and why they do.
MTMattie
Well-known member
Yes, I know you do.
I just tend to try and correct what seems confusing to me, for if it confuses me, others might also be confused... if that makes any sense
I am a full blooded card carrying Trinitarian myself. I also, not to scare you into avoiding me, am a full blooded card carrying free will born again child of God.
civic
Well-known member
if His blood He gave for the forgiveness of sins was unimportant and not necessary so was His death. For the life of the soul resides in the blood.
One cannot choose what they like about the bible and disregeard what they don't like in the bible regarding the Atonement of Christ. It all fits together and every aspect of His death was necessary. It was a fulfillment of Prophecy. It was also necessary for Messiah to die in the exact way He did for the Atonement of sins. The blood of Christ cannot be left out or there is no forgiveness of sins.
Acts 20:28- Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Heb 9:12-He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption
Heb 9:16-18- In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood.
Heb 9:22- According to the law, in fact, nearly everything must be purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Eph 1:7- In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
Matt 26:28- for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
Rev 1:5- and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and has released us from our sins by His blood,
conclusion: reject Jesus blood atonement and you have no forgiveness for your sins and one is not released from their sins and forgiven.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
Acts 20:28- Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Heb 9:12-He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption
Heb 9:16-18- In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood.
Heb 9:22- According to the law, in fact, nearly everything must be purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Eph 1:7- In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
Matt 26:28- for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
Rev 1:5- and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and has released us from our sins by His blood,
Summary and Conclusion: nothing but the blood of Jesus can suffice @Pancho Frijoles
1- His blood purchased/ ransomed the church
2- His blood provided eternal redemption
3- His blood was necessary for the New Covenant
4- The OT Covenant was based on blood sacrifice
5- Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for ones sins
6- His blood provided redemption and forgiveness of our sins
7- His blood makes the New Covenant providing forgiveness of sins
8- His blood releases believers from their sins
hope this helps !!!
Heb 9:12-He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption
Heb 9:16-18- In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood.
Heb 9:22- According to the law, in fact, nearly everything must be purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Eph 1:7- In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
Matt 26:28- for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
Rev 1:5- and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and has released us from our sins by His blood,
Summary and Conclusion: nothing but the blood of Jesus can suffice @Pancho Frijoles
1- His blood purchased/ ransomed the church
2- His blood provided eternal redemption
3- His blood was necessary for the New Covenant
4- The OT Covenant was based on blood sacrifice
5- Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for ones sins
6- His blood provided redemption and forgiveness of our sins
7- His blood makes the New Covenant providing forgiveness of sins
8- His blood releases believers from their sins
hope this helps !!!
