Your heresy does leave an awful stench.
The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus
- Thread starter Runningman
- Start date
Your heresy does leave an awful stench.
Runningman
Well-known member
I won. I have the verses about praying to the Father. You don't have anything. Have some class.
Classic.
Runningman
Well-known member
If your master says pray to the Father and you go and pray to someone else then you are not obeying him.
Because elsewhere He taught we can pray to Him (John 14:14).
You are not obeying Him because you are ignoring what He affirmed elsewhere.
https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-bible-does-not-teach-to-pray-to-jesus.2040/page-19#post-114059
Runningman
Well-known member
Jesus refused prayer.
John 16
23And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Don’t say “elsewhere” as if praying to Jesus were a teaching, spread widely across numerous passages. This is not true.
Besides, What does John 14:14 say? “ I will do whatever you ask in My name, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.”
Jesus is not asking to be prayed to. Jesus is saying that his communion with His Father is such, that He can act as a Mediator when we ask anything… to whom? To the Father, of course. The assumption here is that we desire to go the Father… that there is a reason to go the Father. The Father has something for us that Jesus has not. Otherwise, why would we be interested at all in going to the Father?
Here is the passage
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”
Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that is sufficient for us.”
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you such a long time, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. So how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own authority. But the Father who lives in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me. Or else believe Me on account of the works themselves. Truly, truly I say to you, he who believes in Me will do the works that I do also. And he will do greater works than these, because I am going to My Father. I will do whatever you ask in My name, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
So, a question for @Fred, @civic, @TedT , @Dizerner @JoshebB and our Trinitarian Christian fellows to reflect on:
Jesus is The Way to the Father… but
Why are you interested at all in going to The Father?
Does The Father offer something, or gives you something that Jesus does not?
Why not to put aside The Father in your conversations, debates and prayers more or less like you have put aside the Holy Spirit?
I mean, somebody present in your books but, honestly, not so much in your minds…
Why not making of The Father something like “The Old God of the Old Covenant”, while making of Jesus “The New God of the New Covenant”?
Isn’t Jesus already your King of Kings and Lord of Lords? Isn’t Jesus already your Savior, The Truth, The Life, the Light of this World?
So, what’s the role of The Father not in your Theology, but in your daily life?
Jesus is The Way to the Father… but
Why are you interested at all in going to The Father?
Does The Father offer something, or gives you something that Jesus does not?
Why not to put aside The Father in your conversations, debates and prayers more or less like you have put aside the Holy Spirit?
I mean, somebody present in your books but, honestly, not so much in your minds…
Why not making of The Father something like “The Old God of the Old Covenant”, while making of Jesus “The New God of the New Covenant”?
Isn’t Jesus already your King of Kings and Lord of Lords? Isn’t Jesus already your Savior, The Truth, The Life, the Light of this World?
So, what’s the role of The Father not in your Theology, but in your daily life?
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https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-bible-does-not-teach-to-pray-to-jesus.2040/page-19#post-114059
John 14:14 still stands in refutation of your heresy.
Runningman
Well-known member
John 14:14 isn't a prayer. So if you talk to someone standing right beside you you're praying to them? Why is that different for Jesus in your world?
It's a teaching about a prayer.
Runningman
Well-known member
After John 14:14, Jesus said he would pray for them to his God. Jesus point was that while he was with them he could ask them for anything and he would pray for them.
John 14
15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Then in John 16 Jesus changed positions and said stop asking him. Ask the Father instead.
John 16
23And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Your way of ignoring John 14:14.
Runningman
Well-known member
Jesus said don't pray to him in John 16:23.
No, He didn't.
He taught they would no longer ask Him questions concerning His resurrection.
Simple.
https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/praying-to-jesus.2061/#post-113315
Runningman
Well-known member
Here's your thinking...
Step 1: Jesus said ask him in John 14:14 and for you that means prayer.
Step 2: Jesus said don't ask him in John 16:23, but for you that doesn't mean don't pray to Jesus.
Your theology on prayer is inconsistent. You are just denying the evidences that conflict with your religious beliefs. So far you have dismissed anything that contradicts your beliefs as erroneous, untrustworthy or even evil. I've realized that the longer I have talked to you that I will never "win" a debate with you because the debate isn't really about the Bible. The debate is about what's in your heart and mind. No one can take that from you; it's between you and God.
Because the context teaches that.
Because the context concerns itself with His resurrection.
You are just confused.
Runningman
Well-known member
Clearly not because after that no one ever prayed to Jesus in the Bible nor asked him for anything. Jesus taught Christians directly how to pray to the Father in Matthew 6:6-9. The rest of the Bible says ask the Father.
James 1
5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him
17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
