The 5 Points of Calvinism

Calvinism teaches the following

A) You were chosen/elect/predestined to be saved before the foundation of the world
B) The others who were not elect were predetermined to be damned- double predestination
R.C. Sproul went through so much effort to specifically explain that Double Predestination is NOT what Reformed Theology teaches … you even quoted it and only highlighted the parts where he explained what it was and why it was wrong.

Such tactics seriously diminish your credibility.
Hit that strawman again!
 
R.C. Sproul went through so much effort to specifically explain that Double Predestination is NOT what Reformed Theology teaches … you even quoted it and only highlighted the parts where he explained what it was and why it was wrong.

Such tactics seriously diminish your credibility.
Hit that strawman again!
calvin taught it and he is the authority not RC :)
 
R.C. Sproul went through so much effort to specifically explain that Double Predestination is NOT what Reformed Theology teaches … you even quoted it and only highlighted the parts where he explained what it was and why it was wrong.

Such tactics seriously diminish your credibility.
Hit that strawman again!
Calvin below:
John Calvin confessed that the doctrine of Double Predestination was a horrible and dreadful decree in his Institutes of the Christian Religion. John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Why would anyone believe such a horrific and dreadful doctrine ?

Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam's fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? Here their tongues, otherwise so loquacious, must become mute. The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. (latin. "Decretum quidem horribile, fateor."; french. "Je confesse que ce decret nous doit epouvanter.") Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. If anyone inveighs against God's foreknowledge at this point, he stumbles rashly and heedlessly. What reason is there to accuse the Heavenly Judge because he was not ignorant of what was to happen? If there is any just or manifest complaint, it applies to predestination. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision. For as it pertains to his wisdom to foreknow everything that is to happen, so it pertains to his might to rule and control everything by his hand. And Augustine also skillfully disposes of this question, as of others: "We most wholesomely confess what we most correctly believe, that the God and Lord of all things, who created all things exceedingly good [cf. Gen 1:31], and foreknew that evil things would rise out of good, and also knew that it pertained to his most omnipotent goodness to bring good out of evil things to be . . . , so ordained the life of angels and men that in it he might first of all show what free will could do, and then what the blessing of his grace and the verdict of his justice could do. (Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace X. 27)"

Calvin regarded soteriological predestination as God’s eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition: rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others. Therefore, as any man has been created to one or the other of these ends, we speak of him as predestined to life or to death. gospelcoilitio


" God is said to set apart those whom he adopts into salvation; it will be highly absurd to say that others acquire by chance or by their own effort what election alone confers on a few. Therefore, whom God passes over, he condemns: and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children. " Institutes, III, 23, 1.

“We also note that we should consider the creation of the world so that we may realize that everything is subject to God and ruled by his will and that when the world has done what it may, nothing happens other than what God decrees.” Acts: Calvin, The Crossway Classic Commentaries, p.66

“First, the eternal predestination of God, by which before the fall of Adam He decreed what should take place concerning the whole human race and every individual, was fixed and determined.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.121

“When he uses the term permission, he means that the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of everything, because nothing happens without his order of permission.” The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch. 16, Sect. 8

“For myself, I take another principle: Whatever things are done wrongly and unjustly by man, these very things are the right and just works of God. This may seem paradoxical at first sight to some....” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.169

“Indeed, the ungodly pride themselves on being competent to effect their wishes. But the facts show in the end that by them, unconsciously and unwillingly, what was divinely ordained is implemented.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.173,

“Does God work in the hearts of men, directing their plans and moving their wills this way and that, so that they do nothing but what He has ordained?” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.174

“But it is quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing but the author of them.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God page 176

“But the objection is not yet resolved, that if all things are done by the will of God, and men contrive nothing except by His will and ordination, then God is the author of all evils.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.179

" God is said to set apart those whom he adopts into salvation; it will be highly absurd to say that others acquire by chance or by their own effort what election alone confers on a few. Therefore, whom God passes over, he condemns: and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children. " Institutes, III, 23, 1.
 
calvin taught it and he is the authority not RC :)
Says who?

I never thought so. I follow the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith as my “authority” on what Particular Baptists believe and I hold the Holy Bible as my authority on what is TRUE.

“TULIP” traces its origin to the Synod of Dort, so John Calvin holds no authority over the 5 points of the Doctrines of Grace.

Presbyterians hold the Westminster Confession of Faith as their “authority” on what Reformed Theology holds to be true doctrine.

You are the only person that I know that believes the sun rises and sets on John Calvin … and you hate everything he wrote.
 
I have quoted calvin well over a dozen different times affirming the predestination of the wicked for destruction from all eternity. Its inescapable that he affirmed it and then also denied it. That is what calvin did and his present day followers so as well, they affirm a doctrine then when challenged deny it which is why its called the inconsistent calvinist.

Calvin below:

“We also note that we should consider the creation of the world so that we may realize that everything is subject to God and ruled by his will and that when the world has done what it may, nothing happens other than what God decrees.” Acts: Calvin, The Crossway Classic Commentaries, p.66

“First, the eternal predestination of God, by which before the fall of Adam He decreed what should take place concerning the whole human race and every individual, was fixed and determined.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.121


“When he uses the term permission, he means that the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of everything, because nothing happens without his order of permission.” The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch. 16, Sect. 8

“For myself, I take another principle: Whatever things are done wrongly and unjustly by man, these very things are the right and just works of God. This may seem paradoxical at first sight to some....” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.169


“Indeed, the ungodly pride themselves on being competent to effect their wishes. But the facts show in the end that by them, unconsciously and unwillingly, what was divinely ordained is implemented.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.173,

“Does God work in the hearts of men, directing their plans and moving their wills this way and that, so that they do nothing but what He has ordained?” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.174

Read calvin below:

“But it is quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing but the author of them.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God page 176

“But the objection is not yet resolved, that if all things are done by the will of God, and men contrive nothing except by His will and ordination, then God is the author of all evils.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.179

God is the AUTHOR !

Did you read that ?

The Famous Calvinist John Piper who gets it from the WCF says the following about evil taken from desiring god website :


"Ephesians 1:11 goes even further by declaring that God in Christ “works all things according to the counsel of his will.” Here the Greek word for “works” is energeø, which indicates that God not merely carries all of the universe’s objects and events to their appointed ends but that he actually brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Exodus 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Hebrews 12:3-11; James 1:2-4).

This includes — as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem — God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child: “The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil” (Proverbs 16:4, NASB). “When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other” (Ecclesiastes 7:14, NIV)." www.desiringgod.org/message...ds-gracious-hand-in-the-hurts-others-do-to-us

hope this helps !!!
 
Says who?

I never thought so. I follow the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith as my “authority” on what Particular Baptists believe and I hold the Holy Bible as my authority on what is TRUE.

“TULIP” traces its origin to the Synod of Dort, so John Calvin holds no authority over the 5 points of the Doctrines of Grace.

Presbyterians hold the Westminster Confession of Faith as their “authority” on what Reformed Theology holds to be true doctrine.

You are the only person that I know that believes the sun rises and sets on John Calvin … and you hate everything he wrote.
Calvinsm without calvin is like Christianity without Christ. The name tells you what is taught by their leader.

If you don't believe calvin then stop calling yourself a calvinist and if you don't believe Christ then don't call yourself a Christian.

See how that works.

If I didn't believe Luther I would not call my self a Lutheran.

hope this helps !!!
 
Calvin below:
John Calvin confessed that the doctrine of Double Predestination was a horrible and dreadful decree in his Institutes of the Christian Religion. John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Why would anyone believe such a horrific and dreadful doctrine ?

Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam's fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? Here their tongues, otherwise so loquacious, must become mute. The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. (latin. "Decretum quidem horribile, fateor."; french. "Je confesse que ce decret nous doit epouvanter.") Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. If anyone inveighs against God's foreknowledge at this point, he stumbles rashly and heedlessly. What reason is there to accuse the Heavenly Judge because he was not ignorant of what was to happen? If there is any just or manifest complaint, it applies to predestination. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision. For as it pertains to his wisdom to foreknow everything that is to happen, so it pertains to his might to rule and control everything by his hand. And Augustine also skillfully disposes of this question, as of others: "We most wholesomely confess what we most correctly believe, that the God and Lord of all things, who created all things exceedingly good [cf. Gen 1:31], and foreknew that evil things would rise out of good, and also knew that it pertained to his most omnipotent goodness to bring good out of evil things to be . . . , so ordained the life of angels and men that in it he might first of all show what free will could do, and then what the blessing of his grace and the verdict of his justice could do. (Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace X. 27)"

Calvin regarded soteriological predestination as God’s eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition: rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others. Therefore, as any man has been created to one or the other of these ends, we speak of him as predestined to life or to death. gospelcoilitio


" God is said to set apart those whom he adopts into salvation; it will be highly absurd to say that others acquire by chance or by their own effort what election alone confers on a few. Therefore, whom God passes over, he condemns: and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children. " Institutes, III, 23, 1.

“We also note that we should consider the creation of the world so that we may realize that everything is subject to God and ruled by his will and that when the world has done what it may, nothing happens other than what God decrees.” Acts: Calvin, The Crossway Classic Commentaries, p.66

“First, the eternal predestination of God, by which before the fall of Adam He decreed what should take place concerning the whole human race and every individual, was fixed and determined.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.121

“When he uses the term permission, he means that the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of everything, because nothing happens without his order of permission.” The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch. 16, Sect. 8

“For myself, I take another principle: Whatever things are done wrongly and unjustly by man, these very things are the right and just works of God. This may seem paradoxical at first sight to some....” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.169

“Indeed, the ungodly pride themselves on being competent to effect their wishes. But the facts show in the end that by them, unconsciously and unwillingly, what was divinely ordained is implemented.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.173,

“Does God work in the hearts of men, directing their plans and moving their wills this way and that, so that they do nothing but what He has ordained?” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.174

“But it is quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing but the author of them.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God page 176

“But the objection is not yet resolved, that if all things are done by the will of God, and men contrive nothing except by His will and ordination, then God is the author of all evils.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.179

" God is said to set apart those whom he adopts into salvation; it will be highly absurd to say that others acquire by chance or by their own effort what election alone confers on a few. Therefore, whom God passes over, he condemns: and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children. " Institutes, III, 23, 1.
You know, when I said “Hit that strawman again”, I was being sarcastic. You did not need to actually attack the same strawman argument again. :ROFLMAO:
 
Calvinsm without calvin is like Christianity without Christ. The name tells you what is taught by their leader.

hope this helps !!!
It does. It informs me that you are ignorant of the role of the Lutheran Church in naming the Reformed movement “Calvinism”.

How did the early followers of The Way come to be called “Christians”? Do you know that bit of history?
 
Feel free to reread your post and exegete Romans 9 demonstrating that God loves and treats everyone equally and with no predestination. That should be interesting. ;)
This was a serious suggestion in response to post #177.
(To illuminate the flaw in the logic of that post.)

I do not believe that Romans 9 can be explained from a starting point of “God does not predestine anyone” and “God loves everyone exactly the same”. So if that is your ”god” then Romans 9 must be removed from your Bible. [Which was the sarcastic criticism that I raised in response to post #177].
 
@civic

TULIP explained. I will do one letter at a time as each one will require a great deal of expounding on scripture, therefore time and intense focus on my part to do it justice. This is a strain on my need for movement :) plus I have a lot to do today.

As I go I will change the terms used in order to make an acronym, and in doing so, sacrificed accuracy, leaving much room for the misunderstandings that arise, to more accurate phrasing.

T-Total Depravity

The use of total attached to depravity conjures the idea that we are evil through and through and depraved as we possibly can be. Utter or radical corruption is closer to what is meant.

It simply means that our entire being, including our mind and will was affected by the fall. There is no island in us that was not affected. It changed our nature. It did not destroy our will, we still have it otherwise we would not function at all. It bent it towards sinful desires and became subject to them. As such we became enemies of God, creatures in rebellion to our King and Creator. He our enemy and subject to His judgements, the sentence of death pronounced on us as the sinners. And us as His enemies, bringing evil into the creation through our "hands" our actions and choices.

That this is so we see in Gen 3:16-19. Paul expounds on these very things in Romans 1:18-32, 2:1-12. Here we see the affect man's fall had on all men and on all of creation itself. And the unwillingness of mankind by his very nature, to come to God.

But of course along with God curse placed upon the earth and mankind in Gen we also see the promise. Gen 3:14-15. Redemption announced and the plan put into action. This is the love of God for man and for His creation. The curse is His justice. One does not cancel out the other.

That we are in bondage to sin, which always involves willful rebellion is unequivocally stated in Romans 6:5-6; Eph 2:1-3; Col 1:13; Is 53:4-6.

So the T of tulip is stating that mankind by his nature in Adam due to Adam's fall, is now at enmity with God in that it is bent towards sin, and there will always be times when he will choose sin over God, therefore He will not---because he cannot change his nature---choose God. He doesn't not choose God against his will but because that is his will.

@Arial

lets start a new thread.
The only thing that the "Fall" affected was Adam's "Spiritual death". It's the same thing that happens to us the FIRST TIME we SIN, and fall short.

The ONLY THING I inherited from Adam was "humanity". Adam's nature never changed, and his SIN had no effect on my "nature".

I've got no problem with being "Spiritually blind/ignorant", nor do I have a problem not being able to "become Born again" through my own efforts. Eph 2:8,9 confirms that.

The rest of Calvinism's definition, I have no interest in.
 
The only thing that the "Fall" affected was Adam's "Spiritual death". It's the same thing that happens to us the FIRST TIME we SIN, and fall short.

The ONLY THING I inherited from Adam was "humanity". Adam's nature never changed, and his SIN had no effect on my "nature".

I've got no problem with being "Spiritually blind/ignorant", nor do I have a problem not being able to "become Born again" through my own efforts. Eph 2:8,9 confirms that.

The rest of Calvinism's definition, I have no interest in.
I view Adam's sin a little differently than most people. I think that is because I remember the amazing things that happened when I was born again and filled with the Spirit. I literally felt a heaviness raise up off my shoulders. I was suddenly light as a feather. I see through Scripture what I experienced. My nature was now clean like Adam's was when he was created. But after he sinned, the weight of sin became a part of him. And everyone since then is born with that sin nature. It is only the Holy Spirit that can cleanse our nature to no longer being a "sin" nature. Not only that but receiving also the seed of the Father makes sinning against one of God's commandments again impossible. Its been 47 years and I've never willfully sinned against God's laws again. It has been easy, just as Jesus said. "My yoke is easy, and my burden is light." I also see in Scripture that the reason it is so easy is because the new super-sensitive conscience in me that the Author of my faith has placed in me proves 1 John 3:21-22. And indeed I've received 100% of my prayers, because they have all been God's will. I know that because it is He that tells me FIRST what to pray.

21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

John 15:3-4 shows the born again are indeed CLEAN. That is the opposite of the "T" in TULIP.

3 You are already CLEAN because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
 
I view Adam's sin a little differently than most people. I think that is because I remember the amazing things that happened when I was born again and filled with the Spirit. I literally felt a heaviness raise up off my shoulders. I was suddenly light as a feather. I see through Scripture what I experienced. My nature was now clean like Adam's was when he was created. But after he sinned, the weight of sin became a part of him. And everyone since then is born with that sin nature. It is only the Holy Spirit that can cleanse our nature to no longer being a "sin" nature. Not only that but receiving also the seed of the Father makes sinning against one of God's commandments again impossible. Its been 47 years and I've never willfully sinned against God's laws again. It has been easy, just as Jesus said. "My yoke is easy, and my burden is light." I also see in Scripture that the reason it is so easy is because the new super-sensitive conscience in me that the Author of my faith has placed in me proves 1 John 3:21-22. And indeed I've received 100% of my prayers, because they have all been God's will. I know that because it is He that tells me FIRST what to pray.

21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

John 15:3-4 shows the born again are indeed CLEAN. That is the opposite of the "T" in TULIP.

3 You are already CLEAN because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
I can totally relate.
 
Strawman alert 🚨.Individual Election in Calvinism is false. Christ is the elect one.
Notice the dodge folks. A simple question is apparently not simple enough.

Is the number of the elect foreknown and can it change?

Let's show civic how it is done. The answer to both questions is NO.
 
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