The 5 Points of Calvinism

[Dizerner]

As a Classical Arminian I accept T and U.

I completely reject L and I and P.

Sadly many Non-C's fall for P.

 

[civic]

As a Classical Arminian I accept T and U.

I completely reject L and I and P.

Sadly many Non-C's fall for P.

Where do Arminians accept the unconditional election ?

Could you cite a source ?

Arminius taught that Calvinist predestination and unconditional election made God the author of evil. Instead, Arminius insisted, God's election was an election of believers and therefore was conditioned on faith. Furthermore, Arminius argued, God's exhaustive foreknowledge did not require a doctrine of determinism.

 

[Arial]

Scripture answer that question . Faith always precedes life in scripture. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the world of Christ. Peter snd James say we have been born again after hearing the word of God not before . You are putting the cart before he horse .

We have already gone over that. No need to repeat it. Faith is believing what one hears. And if one believes the gospel when they hear it that is because they have been born in Christ, something only God can do, and no longer bear the condemnation and imprisonment of their natural birth (also something only God can bring about)in Adam, which by nature loves its sin more than it desires God. It is only logical.

 

[Dizerner]

Where do Arminians accept the unconditional election ?

Could you cite a source ?

Arminius taught that Calvinist predestination and unconditional election made God the author of evil. Instead, Arminius insisted, God's election was an election of believers and therefore was conditioned on faith. Furthermore, Arminius argued, God's exhaustive foreknowledge did not require a doctrine of determinism.

Everyone is unconditionally elect.

Where you elected based on some prior condition you met?

You're conflating limited election with unconditional election.

When we Arminians say "election is conditional" we don't mean becoming elected, we mean STAYING elected.

"Make your calling and election sure."

This is why many Calvinists have changed it to "Sovereign Election" or something else instead.

 

[Arial]

Consider this idea. I believe that what brings the believer to the cross isn't a choice made in a vacuum, but there is no reason that it cannot be seen as a choice. I believe that a way to look at Jesus answer to the disciples question of who then can be saved is that Jesus is saying, no one can be saved unless God intervenes and changes them. (Seen in Saul's transformation to Paul on the way to Damascus. A very visible example of God's direct intervention.) God shaped Saul's circumstances so that the end result was unavoidable. God radically transformed Saul's mind by simply stating the truth of Saul's life in a question. “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” Saul asked who? And Jesus told Saul that it is He. Saul was crushed to discover that in His zeal He wasn't defending God or fighting for God, but persecuting Him by attacking the church. His whole thought process radically reformed and transformed. He now understood. He faced the actual truth of what he was doing, and it crushed him. The only path that stretched before him was through the grave, where Saul died and Paul was born. The old was gone, and the new had come. So while Paul chose, it was the only path that was before him. Hence, irresistible grace.

There is also another aspect to the same thing that we can see in Saul's conversion.

He was probably as familiar with the teachings of the apostles in the church as he was with the Sinai covenant law and the Jewish traditions. And that knowledge did not persuade him but rather caused him to persecute the church. Hearing it did not persuade him to change his mind. Only Jesus Himself could change that hardness.

Though we each are drawn and called by God in whatever unique way He does so, treating us as the valuable individuals that we are, all who arrive at the narrow gate do so through the power of God---alone (only).

 

[armylngst]

There is also another aspect to the same thing that we can see in Saul's conversion.

He was probably as familiar with the teachings of the apostles in the church as he was with the Sinai covenant law and the Jewish traditions. And that knowledge did not persuade him but rather caused him to persecute the church. Hearing it did not persuade him to change his mind. Only Jesus Himself could change that hardness.

Though we each are drawn and called by God in whatever unique way He does so, treating us as the valuable individuals that we are, all who arrive at the narrow gate do so through the power of God---alone (only).

He did stand there for Stephen's awesome defense, which always hit me deep in the heart. I always found it beautiful. Yet, Paul was unfazed by this passionate speech and emboldened to persecute all those who believed the same as Stephen. The Christians.

Stephen is my spiritual hero of the faith.

 

[Arial]

He did stand there for Stephen's awesome defense, which always hit me deep in the heart. I always found it beautiful. Yet, Paul was unfazed by this passionate speech and emboldened to persecute all those who believed the same as Stephen. The Christians.

Stephen is my spiritual hero of the faith.

David is mine in general, in the way that He knew God so well and it was in this knowing God that He trusted Him.

Next to Jesus of course. I have on occasion sat and contemplated the faith (trust) Jesus had in the Father as He walked the earth as Son of man.

 

[civic]

There is also another aspect to the same thing that we can see in Saul's conversion.

He was probably as familiar with the teachings of the apostles in the church as he was with the Sinai covenant law and the Jewish traditions. And that knowledge did not persuade him but rather caused him to persecute the church. Hearing it did not persuade him to change his mind. Only Jesus Himself could change that hardness.

Though we each are drawn and called by God in whatever unique way He does so, treating us as the valuable individuals that we are, all who arrive at the narrow gate do so through the power of God---alone (only).

The exception is never the rule . Paul is the exception not the rule with his conversion.

 

[Arial]

The exception is never the rule . Paul is the exception not the rule with his conversion.

The dramatic event is the exception, not the rule. God is immutable. He does in Saul what He does in all who come to Christ. He does not say "I will change Saul's heart supernaturally, but most of the rest I will leave it up to them to change their own hard hearts."

 

[Arial]

Yes I missed the scriptures as well. I see an assumption but no scripture references.

Obviously at least two people don't really read when they read. They are only thinking about what they are going to say to contradict what they already think they know the other person is going to say. Either that or they just say there are no scriptures even if there are as a convenient accusation rather than addressing said scriptures because they can't.

 

[civic]

Obviously at least two people don't really read when they read. They are only thinking about what they are going to say to contradict what they already think they know the other person is going to say. Either that or they just say there are no scriptures even if there are as a convenient accusation rather than addressing said scriptures because they can't.

Romans 1 shows TD is not true as does Jesus teaching to come and follow Him . Man can understand the call. Dead in Calvinism is not what the Bible portrays about man’s condition .

 

[civic]

The dramatic event is the exception, not the rule. God is immutable. He does in Saul what He does in all who come to Christ. He does not say "I will change Saul's heart supernaturally, but most of the rest I will leave it up to them to change their own hard hearts."

No one I’ve ever heard of was blinded by the Lord who appeared to them in person and knocked down on the ground by Him. That’s a one of a kind experience.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Arial]

Romans 1 shows TD is not true as does Jesus teaching to come and follow Him . Man can understand the call. Dead in Calvinism is not what the Bible portrays about man’s condition .

I have shown you where you are missapplying Romans 1 and why it does apply to and support total depravity. I took you all the way through chapter 3 to do so. You have not shown me where Romans 1 in any way shape or form disproves TD. Why are you just going over the same ground. There are still four letters that you must disprove if you can.

 

[Arial]

No one I’ve ever heard of was blinded by the Lord who appeared to them in person and knocked down on the ground by Him. That’s a one of a kind experience.

hope this helps !!!

That is what I said! Sheesh.

The dramatic event is the exception, not the rule.

That does not mean that God is not also the direct agent in the conversion of those who are converted.

 

[Bronson]

Give me an "L" Who put the limit on “Limited Atonement”? And why did God find it necessary that Jesus only died for a few?

Logically, that God would send Christ to be an atoning sacrifice only for the elect would be consistent with the TULIP system of salvation. The distinctive feature of Calvinism is that God has chosen a certain number of people to save. God has decreed within himself to save only a relatively few. And yet Calvinist somehow someway would have us believe that John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” is only speaking about the elect.

So, if you're not part of the elect you might be here on planet earth but you're only an unwelcome guest until it's time for you to go burn in hell for eternity. And there's not a thing you can do about it. What a joke and they want to call it the good news of the gospel. They want you to believe that Calvinism is the gospel. But how many people do you think are going to accept Calvinism when they don't know if they're the elect or not? When do you find out you're part of the elect? It's like Mormonism you don't find out you're saved until you get to heaven.

Due to total depravity no one is able to seek after God or even respond to the gospel call to repent and believe the gospel. As a consequence, if anyone is to believe it must be because God has determined that they would. That would make Calvinist robots.

 

[Overjoyed]

Give me an "L" Who put the limit on “Limited Atonement”? And why did God find it necessary that Jesus only died for a few?

Logically, that God would send Christ to be an atoning sacrifice only for the elect would be consistent with the TULIP system of salvation. The distinctive feature of Calvinism is that God has chosen a certain number of people to save. God has decreed within himself to save only a relatively few. And yet Calvinist somehow someway would have us believe that John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” is only speaking about the elect.

So, if you're not part of the elect you might be here on planet earth but you're only an unwelcome guest until it's time for you to go burn in hell for eternity. And there's not a thing you can do about it. What a joke and they want to call it the good news of the gospel. They want you to believe that Calvinism is the gospel. But how many people do you think are going to accept Calvinism when they don't know if they're the elect or not? When do you find out you're part of the elect? It's like Mormonism you don't find out you're saved until you get to heaven.

Due to total depravity no one is able to seek after God or even respond to the gospel call to repent and believe the gospel. As a consequence, if anyone is to believe it must be because God has determined that they would. That would make Calvinist robots.

Some Calvinists view the term limited the third point of TULIP as too negative and like the term particular atonement or definite atonement better. But, Whatever way you look at it, most Calvinists limit the divine intent of the atonement to a restricted number—the elect. That's the sticking point.

What, exactly, is the root issue at stake here? The basic issue concerns the purpose of the atonement. For us Christians the atonement refers to the needed reconciliation between sinful mankind and the holy God. This reconciliation is only possible through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, as expressed in Romans 3:25, Romans 5:11, and Romans5:19. Atonement is the Bible’s central message.

Adam’s choice to sin made everyone guilty before God, without hope. But then, Christ stepped in, making atonement for sin. Christ, the sinless lamb, took upon Himself the sins of the world, that we might receive the atonement for our sins and be reconciled to God. Christ made an atonement for our sins. He paid a price, His own life, that God accepted for us on our behalf. When we believe in him we are brought back to God.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock:if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him,and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20

 

[civic]

There are still four letters that you must disprove if you can.

The teaching of Five-Point Calvinism is that God has determined and decreed that some are to be saved without any conditions to be met on their part. This is called Unconditional Election and is the choosing of some to salvation in Christ, while at the same time, leaving the rest in their lost condition by not choosing them. This election is not based on God's foreknowing that certain would believe, but is based on His sovereign will to elect certain ones. Those who are not chosen to be part of the Elect of God can in no way enter into that company. In line with this teaching, the statement is made that God does not love all men, but only those whom he has chosen to be saved.

The Scriptures are very plain that God has His Elect ones who by faith in Jesus Christ are predestinated "to be conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom. 8:29). They are adopted by God and Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4,5). This election is plainly declared to be based on the foreknowledge of God (1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29). Since God knows the end from the beginning, He foreknows those who will believe in Christ. He has purposed that they will be to the praise of His glory throughout the ages and through them He will "show the exceeding riches of His grace" (Eph. 2:7).

The Scriptures are also very plain in stating that "whosoever will" may come to Christ. Please read the following Scriptures— John 3:15,16; 4:14; 12:46; Acts 2:21, 10:43; Rom. 10:13; Rev. 22:17. The word whosoever means "all, any, every, the whole." Since we believe in the verbal, plenary inspiration of the Word of God we are forced to believe that when God moves the Scripture writers to say "whosoever," then that is exactly what He means. That there is a condition to be met in order for one to be saved is proved by our Lord's words in John 8:24, "for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

That God loves all men in this world and sent His Son to die for them is abundantly clear from John 3:16. The Five-Point Calvinist changes the meaning of the word "world" here and adds to the Word of God by placing immediately behind it two words, "the elect." The verse then appears this way, "For God so loved the world (the elect) that He gave His only begotten Son, etc." I have seen this verse written in this way in gospel tracts. The word world is used 77 times in the Gospel of John. I would encourage you to take Strong's Concordance and look up each occurrence, then insert the words "the elect" behind each usage of it. You do not have to go far before you see how ridiculous it is. freeman

You see, beloved, if God does not love all men, then we should not love them either. Since our Christian character comes from the indwelling of our Lord, we cannot show forth an attribute that is superior to His. Yet, strangely enough, the Word of God says we are to love our enemies, our wives, our husbands, our children. If we must love lost sinners, and our Lord is holier than we are, we must believe that He loves them too. I'll believe John 3:16 as it stands, unaltered by the followers of John Calvin.

hope this helps !!!

 

[atpollard]

The exception is never the rule . Paul is the exception not the rule with his conversion.

What about the Jews visiting Jerusalem that screamed “Crucify Him” on Good Friday and were “cut to the heart” on Pentecost Sunday? Are those THOUSANDS also the exception?

 

[civic]

What about the Jews visiting Jerusalem that screamed “Crucify Him” on Good Friday and were “cut to the heart” on Pentecost Sunday? Are those THOUSANDS also the exception?

Completely different than Pauls conversion. Jesus appeared personally to Paul and chose him to be His Apostle.

 

[Theophilus]

The teaching of Five-Point Calvinism is that God has determined and decreed that some are to be saved without any conditions to be met on their part. This is called Unconditional Election and is the choosing of some to salvation in Christ, while at the same time, leaving the rest in their lost condition by not choosing them. This election is not based on God's foreknowing that certain would believe, but is based on His sovereign will to elect certain ones. Those who are not chosen to be part of the Elect of God can in no way enter into that company. In line with this teaching, the statement is made that God does not love all men, but only those whom he has chosen to be saved.

The Scriptures are very plain that God has His Elect ones who by faith in Jesus Christ are predestinated "to be conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom. 8:29). They are adopted by God and Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4,5). This election is plainly declared to be based on the foreknowledge of God (1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29). Since God knows the end from the beginning, He foreknows those who will believe in Christ. He has purposed that they will be to the praise of His glory throughout the ages and through them He will "show the exceeding riches of His grace" (Eph. 2:7).

The Scriptures are also very plain in stating that "whosoever will" may come to Christ. Please read the following Scriptures— John 3:15,16; 4:14; 12:46; Acts 2:21, 10:43; Rom. 10:13; Rev. 22:17. The word whosoever means "all, any, every, the whole." Since we believe in the verbal, plenary inspiration of the Word of God we are forced to believe that when God moves the Scripture writers to say "whosoever," then that is exactly what He means. That there is a condition to be met in order for one to be saved is proved by our Lord's words in John 8:24, "for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

That God loves all men in this world and sent His Son to die for them is abundantly clear from John 3:16. The Five-Point Calvinist changes the meaning of the word "world" here and adds to the Word of God by placing immediately behind it two words, "the elect." The verse then appears this way, "For God so loved the world (the elect) that He gave His only begotten Son, etc." I have seen this verse written in this way in gospel tracts. The word world is used 77 times in the Gospel of John. I would encourage you to take Strong's Concordance and look up each occurrence, then insert the words "the elect" behind each usage of it. You do not have to go far before you see how ridiculous it is. freeman

You see, beloved, if God does not love all men, then we should not love them either. Since our Christian character comes from the indwelling of our Lord, we cannot show forth an attribute that is superior to His. Yet, strangely enough, the Word of God says we are to love our enemies, our wives, our husbands, our children. If we must love lost sinners, and our Lord is holier than we are, we must believe that He loves them too. I'll believe John 3:16 as it stands, unaltered by the followers of John Calvin.

hope this helps !!!

I thank God I'm a whosoever.