Tensions in Calvin’s Idea of Predestination

[TibiasDad]

I disagree. God determines what I will choose. God determined Judas would betray Christ long before he ever did.

Show me God determing my choices means i did not actually freely choose. If determine your going to take your hat off and yell, 'hey, your hat is on fire", and you quickly take it off. Did you freel choose to take it off?

He is your creator, so that is correct. That being said its true, you do choose your greatest desire at the moment you choose. Unless you can demonstrate otherwise.

Which comes first, God’s choice that I must choose X, or my choice to choose X. Which choice makes it necessary?

If the answer is God’s, then I have no freedom of choice. God has determined everything, including my desires which govern my choices.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

God determined Judas would betray Christ long before he ever did.

A sovereign God a do whatever he wants to with his creation at any given point of time. But that doesn’t mean that that is the rule, but rather the exception.

It could also mean that he simply foresees what the choice will be.

Both ideas avoid meticulous predetermination!

Doug

 

[civic]

A sovereign God a do whatever he wants to with his creation at any given point of time. But that doesn’t mean that that is the rule, but rather the exception.

It could also mean that he simply foresees what the choice will be.

Both ideas avoid meticulous predetermination!

Doug

Exactly it’s the exception. And we know there were many prophecies to be fulfilled with His 1st Coming according to Gods plan.

It’s arrogant to think you or I have a predetermined plan like the Prophets or Apostles.

Many think they are more important than they really are and pride themselves on that misnomer.

 

[TibiasDad]

Exactly it’s the exception. And we know there were many prophecies to be fulfilled with His 1st Coming according to Gods plan.

It’s arrogant to think you or I have a predetermined plan like the Prophets or Apostles.

Many think they are more important than they really are and pride themselves on that misnomer.

And these are not the issue of whether I choose to believe. If justice has any meaning, I must be free to do other than what God wants when it comes to my response to the gospel.

Doug

 

[civic]

And these are not the issue of whether I choose to believe. If justice has any meaning, I must be free to do other than what God wants when it comes to my response to the gospel.

Doug

Amen

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

If I choose, God does not foreknow THEN I choose.... that falls under the definition of predestination.

for knowledge means knowing before that it is going to happen.

Now I understand why you are where you are in your beliefs..... applicable terminology is messed up in your mind, similar to a word scramble.

this is confusing.

So God knowing what I would chose before I chose and do the thing I chose to do is not God foreknowing?

 

[FreeInChrist]

this is confusing.

So God knowing what I would chose before I chose and do the thing I chose to do is not God foreknowing?

You have stated it perfectly as to what I believe @Presby02 believes.

Well done, ummm.... His good and faithful servant.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I am back.

I am too. Sorry I missed this.

I cannot say I agree with this, exactly. God is all knowing and all sufficient. He CAN do and have whatever he wants...He can speak it and it will be.... but I see it as by design that there are things within the human will.. and also angelic free will ( "Heylel, aka Lucifer aka Satan") that He will not interfere with.

God can NOT sin. So saying God can do anything is not exacting. This is a mistake that Calvinists make over and over again.
This is referenced in theology as the doctrine of Impeccability and Immutability. Evils that exist within philosophy has mixed with the Truth of God throughout history. Philosophy isn't bad in and of itself. It is like most anything else. It can be good. It can be bad. God can't be bad. It is outside of His Character.

I must say that most people don't give much thought to this. Of all the people I've meet in my life, I believe @civic comes about as close to understanding this as anyone I've ever meet.

The future doesn't exist. God however, knows Himself. His own Character. What is within His Character is certain in that it will NEVER CHANGE. Never. The Immutability of God.

However, silly men try to extend this to include themselves. We are always changing. Saying God knows everything we will do in the future is rather implausible given the fact the future doesn't exist. However, God knows what He will do because He is Eternally consistent relative to His own Character. When it does seem that God changes, it is always in the context of man changing. Not God changing. When we change to become more like Him, our relationship with Him changes and He changes toward us. However, it is nothing He wouldn't do if He could do it. There are things God will not do. God is too smart to try to force men to do things beyond their own willingness to do them.

I'm going to let that "sink in" for a while. Consider what I said and I'm ready for the followups.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Billy Graham... you may hate him but he was very wise in many things and he
The late evangelist Billy Graham discussed how the Almighty God, who created the whole world, can do anything except interfere with a person’s will.

Billy Graham ​

Billy Graham Says, 'God Never Interferes With Your Will' | Christian Learning & News

Billy Graham discussed how the Almighty God, who created the whole world, can do anything except interfere with a person's will.

www.christianlearning.com

​

Billy Graham left timeless messages about the nature of God. In one of his sermon clips, he shared about how God will never intervene in a person’s will, including their decision to follow God and be saved.

Billy first referred to Revelations 3:20 to prove his point. It says, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.”

I actually held that belief before I ever read he taught that.

I believe God has honored that from the day he breathed life into Adam and continues this day, even after the crucifixion of the
of the second and last Adam, Jesus Christ.
I cannot put the actual term Predestination on this but I can say I believe it to be by design. Or Pre-planned.

I never hated Billy Graham. Some around me have throughout their lives. The biggest problem I had with him was the way he commercialized the Gospel. Not saying he was very bad. Just worse than I would have liked. Other that, I'm not his judge.

Except, to me there are specific people who were pre-selected and pre-determined to do the job God had for them.

Sure. Jesus Christ. Which is why I said that we must start with Jesus Christ. He is the ONLY ONE NAMED to have preexisted and been purposed. To add anyone else to this list is to not justly recognizing the Glory due such a position.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Prophets, Job (especially) , the Disciples, including Judas , the additional apostles, and others that had a specific role to play down through history. These I would say were predestined because even though God is all knowing, I believe there are some things he would not leave to chance.

I want to deal with this separately because there is a need here to accept what I previously said or you're never going to agree with me in what I'm going to say.

The teaching of the "Remnant" contradicts this.

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

There is no context of individual election in the teaching of the Remnant. Elijah wasn't alone. Peter, James, Paul and all the apostles were not alone.

Luk 10:23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
Luk 10:24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

The Remnant are "replacements". The idea that such choice could only be Peter isn't true at all. God had others that could do the exact same things. God gives gifts according the willingness of the individual. Those that are not willing, they are taken away.

Elijah learned that lesson when he ran away.

Don't believe this nonsense that "God chose me".....

Luk 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

 

[praise_yeshua]

And these are not the issue of whether I choose to believe. If justice has any meaning, I must be free to do other than what God wants when it comes to my response to the gospel.

Doug

Oh the Grace He has bestowed upon humanity for God to treat as equals in this. We're not equals but we certain are bestowed the gracious kindness of God toward all humanity.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I am too. Sorry I missed this.



God can NOT sin. So saying God can do anything is not exacting.

Why? Where is it written that says God cannot sin? I prefer to day God will not sin.

I have found no direct quote from Jesus stating that the Father cannot sin.

It is Christian doctrine that generally holds that God is inherently sinless and cannot sin, as He is perfect and holy.
While that is most likely a true statement that is not to say He can't... I say He won't.

A very mild example of how.....

We have always also been told the Jesus could not sin... which has led to many a debate on how Jesus could have
been tempted if he could not have given in.

But He also flipped the tables of the money changers out of anger. Perhaps righteous anger but anger none the less.

This is a mistake that Calvinists make over and over again.

I am not a Calvenist. Oh how I wish my signature line could say that in size 26 pt and bright red.

This is referenced in theology as the doctrine of Impeccability and Immutability. Evils that exist within philosophy has mixed with the Truth of God throughout history. Philosophy isn't bad in and of itself. It is like most anything else. It can be good. It can be bad. God can't be bad. It is outside of His Character.

I must say that most people don't give much thought to this. Of all the people I've meet in my life, I believe @civic comes about as close to understanding this as anyone I've ever meet.

The future doesn't exist.

If that is true the way you have it stated then there will be no second coming, because that is definitely future.... unless of course you are a preterist and believe it already has.

God however, knows Himself. His own Character. What is within His Character is certain in that it will NEVER CHANGE. Never. The Immutability of God.

However, silly men try to extend this to include themselves. We are always changing. Saying God knows everything we will do in the future is rather implausible given the fact the future doesn't exist.

What if I were to reword things and say God, in his foreknowledge knows who is likely to seek salvation?

Or to seek after the things that make salvation possible to them?

However, God knows what He will do because He is Eternally consistent relative to His own Character.

I see Him knowing what He will do because He has a plan. Call it an eternal blueprint if you will .
You certainly don't for one minute believe that we came into existence as a byproduct from two bad apples. (bad pun) by the name of Adam and Eve, do you?

And surely you do not think we came into existence as part of the life put into his Global Terrarium made for His enjoyment?

And surly you do not think the reason we are here in God's plan is because from the beginning it was decided to make all there is and include mankind, that would need a savior before the end comes about?

Or do you believe that we are at the point in history, approaching (not soon enough) the 2nd coming so we will know the end is here at last.

Oh, I forget. there is no future, therefore ... well I dont have a therefore.... but that statement does not make it for me.

When it does seem that God changes, it is always in the context of man changing.

God never changes.

Not God changing. When we change to become more like Him, our relationship with Him changes and He changes toward us.

Agreed we change... not so sure about Him changing toward us.

However, it is nothing He wouldn't do if He could do it. There are things God will not do. God is too smart to try to force men to do things beyond their own willingness to do them.

Agreed. Period.

I'm going to let that "sink in" for a while. Consider what I said and I'm ready for the followups.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I never hated Billy Graham. Some around me have throughout their lives. The biggest problem I had with him was the way he commercialized the Gospel. Not saying he was very bad. Just worse than I would have liked. Other that, I'm not his judge.

I never followed him. I admire what his son is doing. But here is a true and amusing story.

I am adopted. When I was mid teens my birth mom died and my dad remarried another woman.

Well, She was Catholic, and we Protestant. And Her mom was a drag the kids so Sunday mass with whatever it took
and if she couldn't she expected the dad to.

Well the dad would walk the kids there but he himself would not go to mass as he did not like the religion at all.
(In fact.. he was a Palatine Guard for the Pope back in the early teens of last century)

Anyway, anytime there was the opportunity for him to see Billy Graham on TV he never missed. That was his Pastor and Teacher and he just respected him so much.... much to the chagrin of his own wife.

Sure. Jesus Christ. Which is why I said that we must start with Jesus Christ. He is the ONLY ONE NAMED to have preexisted and been purposed. To add anyone else to this list is to not justly recognizing the Glory due such a position.

Agreed. but then two sides of this coin also

 

[praise_yeshua]

Why? Where is it written that says God cannot sin? I prefer to day God will not sin.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

I have found no direct quote from Jesus stating that the Father cannot sin.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

It is Christian doctrine that generally holds that God is inherently sinless and cannot sin, as He is perfect and holy.
While that is most likely a true statement that is not to say He can't... I say He won't.

It is a matter of Character. Quality of Character. A Character that changes is unstable and certainly not worthy of following.

We have always also been told the Jesus could not sin... which has led to many a debate on how Jesus could have
been tempted if he could not have given in.

Thoughts are sinful. Not only actions but thoughts. God can not entertain any thought of sin. It is contrary to Immutability.

Now, having said that. I certain believe that Christ broke Mosaic law. However, that is a different issue. Such is a matter of authority. Jesus was never bound to the character of the law of Moses. He was bound to the Character of God.

But He also flipped the tables of the money changers out of anger. Perhaps righteous anger but anger none the less.

Anger isn't sin. James even said it. Be angry and sin not.

I am not a Calvenist. Oh how I wish my signature line could say that in size 26 pt and bright red.

No offense intended. Most Calvinists are not Calvinists. Most Calvinist don't know what Calvin taught. The Synod of Dort and the Westminster Confession contradict one another and do not say the exact same things. I don't fit anywhere but I do share some aspects of some beliefs with many people.

If that is true the way you have it stated then there will be no second coming, because that is definitely future.... unless of course you are a preterist and believe it already has.

No. In the Character of God, the second coming is as certain as done though it hasn't happened yet. It doesn't exist in the tangible Universe yet. It is purposed.

What if I were to reword things and say God, in his foreknowledge knows who is likely to seek salvation?

We can discuss this. That is rather complicated. I do hold a predictability model. However, God has been surprised before. I know that offends some. So be it.

Or to seek after the things that make salvation possible to them?

I see Him knowing what He will do because He has a plan. Call it an eternal blueprint if you will .
You certainly don't for one minute believe that we came into existence as a byproduct from two bad apples. (bad pun) by the name of Adam and Eve, do you?

You're flesh.... right? What do you have that isn't flesh? I only ask this to try and determine what you believe.

And surely you do not think we came into existence as part of the life put into his Global Terrarium made for His enjoyment?

And surly you do not think the reason we are here in God's plan is because from the beginning it was decided to make all there is and include mankind, that would need a savior before the end comes about?

No. I believe the purpose of God in humanity was to Glorify Jesus Christ. In this, we know the very Character of God through experience with Jesus Christ. Predestination must start and be confined by everything Jesus Christ.

Or do you believe that we are at the point in history, approaching (not soon enough) the 2nd coming so we will know the end is here at last.

I don't believe there is a set time for such. Those conditions will dictate God's intervention. Now Calvary? Why certainly. At exactly the right time, Christ came and was born of a woman. Right on time. God intervenes in this "spinning ball" we live on to bring about His purpose in Jesus Christ. What we do is limited, but not planned. Planning is for God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Oh, I forget. there is no future, therefore ... well I dont have a therefore.... but that statement does not make it for me.

God never changes.

Agreed we change... not so sure about Him changing toward us.

Does God remember your sins? We can start there.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I never followed him. I admire what his son is doing. But here is a true and amusing story.

I am adopted. When I was mid teens my birth mom died and my dad remarried another woman.

Well, She was Catholic, and we Protestant. And Her mom was a drag the kids so Sunday mass with whatever it took
and if she couldn't she expected the dad to.

Well the dad would walk the kids there but he himself would not go to mass as he did not like the religion at all.
(In fact.. he was a Palatine Guard for the Pope back in the early teens of last century)

Anyway, anytime there was the opportunity for him to see Billy Graham on TV he never missed. That was his Pastor and Teacher and he just respected him so much.... much to the chagrin of his own wife.

I do believe his son is a "better man" but that is just my opinion. I live in NC. I've been around them at a distance since I was young. I have considered working for Samaritans Purse. It would be a struggle to live and get paid what they pay people. They expect people to be volunteers that work for the ministry. I can understand that. I might just do it one day. Who knows. Thanks for sharing your story.

Agreed. but then two sides of this coin also

Interesting. Can you elaborate on the "two sides"?

 

[FreeInChrist]

Does God remember your sins? We can start there.

Alledgedly not, though I have a propensity of reminding Him in prayers of thanks

 

[FreeInChrist]

I do believe his son is a "better man" but that is just my opinion. I live in NC. I've been around them at a distance since I was young. I have considered working for Samaritans Purse. It would be a struggle to live and get paid what they pay people. They expect people to be volunteers that work for the ministry. I can understand that. I might just do it one day. Who knows. Thanks for sharing your story.



Interesting. Can you elaborate on the "two sides"?

You had responded to my

Except, to me there are specific people who were pre-selected and pre-determined to do the job God had for them.

With
Sure. Jesus Christ. Which is why I said that we must start with Jesus Christ. He is the ONLY ONE NAMED to have preexisted and been purposed. To add anyone else to this list is to not justly recognizing the Glory due such a position.

I agree 100% with this but there are those, even in the debate that will argue Jesus never became the Son of God until His birth from Mary. And that his Pre-determined reason for being was from that point forward.

IOW they feel that when it was time for the Messiah, Savior to enter into things it was not from the Son of God who preexisted before time but strictly was from the moment of the incarnation that He became the Son... and even with proof that the Word was that one made flesh they deny the Word was ever the Son.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Alledgedly not, though I have a propensity of reminding Him in prayers of thanks

I happen to believe He does. Let me use a ole Calvinists style response..

Is it too hard for God to forget?

Just had to say that..... Just making the point.

I happen to believe what God does and doesn't do are all a measure of the quality of His Character.

It is just for God to forgive. It is just for God to forget. Being willfully ignorant of my sins is God's kindness toward me. Forgiveness is easy for God. I happen to believe He doesn't enjoy being angry. It is necessary but not a pleasure for Him.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You had responded to my


With
Sure. Jesus Christ. Which is why I said that we must start with Jesus Christ. He is the ONLY ONE NAMED to have preexisted and been purposed. To add anyone else to this list is to not justly recognizing the Glory due such a position.

I agree 100% with this but there are those, even in the debate that will argue Jesus never became the Son of God until His birth from Mary. And that his Pre-determined reason for being was from that point forward.

IOW they feel that when it was time for the Messiah, Savior to enter into things it was not from the Son of God who preexisted before time but strictly was from the moment of the incarnation that He became the Son... and even with proof that the Word was that one made flesh they deny the Word was ever the Son.

Let me think of the best way to respond to this. I appreciate you working with me in this.